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 Kanluwen wrote:
Far as I can tell? The Chaplain fluff seems to be 'lost'...and has been for awhile. There's a lot of 'needs citation' listings on Lexicanum, which is what I'm working with at the moment as I had to go back to the 4th edition 'doctrines' book to find an entry with a table resembling that. With the reintroduction of the Lieutenants...the old 'every Company gets a Chaplain' rule might be gone as a hard and fast rule for every Company.

Ahhh, now I see what you mean. I do actually remember this changing in 5th ed, but if anything, it's because the fluff for Chaplains (and Apothecaries) actually got expanded, not reduced. The Reclusiam and the Apothecarion, if not being created (there are pre-5th references to them), at least being a much more concrete organisation within the Chapter than before, and getting their own "heads of department" as a result.

To me, the end result is simply that Chaplains/Apothecaries/Librarians/Techmarines get a lot more freedom in where they can be assigned, for example they might be specifically assigned to a warzone or a strike force, as opposed to the more rigid "one per company" they had before, with numbers we've seen since even proving that they go beyond 10 per Chapter. That's a far cry from meaning they don't get sent out with every company any more - if anything, it makes it more likely you'll see one or more with elements of a given Company at any one time.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Far as I can tell? The Chaplain fluff seems to be 'lost'...and has been for awhile. There's a lot of 'needs citation' listings on Lexicanum, which is what I'm working with at the moment as I had to go back to the 4th edition 'doctrines' book to find an entry with a table resembling that. With the reintroduction of the Lieutenants...the old 'every Company gets a Chaplain' rule might be gone as a hard and fast rule for every Company.

Every company has an Ancient, and there's no mention of them in your picture either outside of "Command Squad", which is a nebulous concept.

 Tamwulf wrote:
You don't see many Gravis Captains because the model was available in ONE box set at the release of 8th edition and hasn't been available as a separate model since. For just about all of 8th edition, he was the best Captain to take in a Primaris force. But I digress...

This is all pointless speculation as the new codex drops next month.

I'd say you don't see him because the mini-Calgar Aggressors are better, and give the other chapters a more true Calgar cross over combined with the named specials having too much of the Chapter Flavor in their special so if you want to double down on their flavor, you have to take the named even if he is twice the price

 Kanluwen wrote:
Two box sets actually.

Dark Imperium and Know No Fear both had the Gravis Captain. KNF was $75-$80, I think? It didn't have as much stuff as Dark Imperium but it also wasn't toting the core rulebook in it.

and if you where running primaris marines you had him. you'd be a damn fool not to start an army off with a DI or KKF box. the savings on basics where just too good

 Kanluwen wrote:

Far as I can tell? The Chaplain fluff seems to be 'lost'...and has been for awhile. There's a lot of 'needs citation' listings on Lexicanum, which is what I'm working with at the moment as I had to go back to the 4th edition 'doctrines' book to find an entry with a table resembling that. With the reintroduction of the Lieutenants...the old 'every Company gets a Chaplain' rule might be gone as a hard and fast rule for every Company.

Although not listed in the chapter organization chart, the 7th Ed double-demi-company Gladius formation required one demi-company to be led by a Captain, and the second demi-company to be led by a Chaplain. So, deploying a full company meant bringing a Chaplain. Not quite the same as the old explicit chart, but was sorta implicit within the rules.

But now we have Lieutenants to do that. Endless, endless Lieutenants...

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Far as I can tell? The Chaplain fluff seems to be 'lost'...and has been for awhile. There's a lot of 'needs citation' listings on Lexicanum, which is what I'm working with at the moment as I had to go back to the 4th edition 'doctrines' book to find an entry with a table resembling that. With the reintroduction of the Lieutenants...the old 'every Company gets a Chaplain' rule might be gone as a hard and fast rule for every Company.

Although not listed in the chapter organization chart, the 7th Ed double-demi-company Gladius formation required one demi-company to be led by a Captain, and the second demi-company to be led by a Chaplain. So, deploying a full company meant bringing a Chaplain. Not quite the same as the old explicit chart, but was sorta implicit within the rules.

the chappy was kinda positioned as the unoffical XO of the company. I think Lts make so much more sense then that TBH

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Far as I can tell? The Chaplain fluff seems to be 'lost'...and has been for awhile. There's a lot of 'needs citation' listings on Lexicanum, which is what I'm working with at the moment as I had to go back to the 4th edition 'doctrines' book to find an entry with a table resembling that. With the reintroduction of the Lieutenants...the old 'every Company gets a Chaplain' rule might be gone as a hard and fast rule for every Company.

Although not listed in the chapter organization chart, the 7th Ed double-demi-company Gladius formation required one demi-company to be led by a Captain, and the second demi-company to be led by a Chaplain. So, deploying a full company meant bringing a Chaplain. Not quite the same as the old explicit chart, but was sorta implicit within the rules.

the chappy was kinda positioned as the unoffical XO of the company. I think Lts make so much more sense then that TBH

I think the better set up is having the Lts. as sub Captain and Chaplain. They come two for a slot, after all. Warrior monks having their spiritual leaders in permanent position of authority makes good 40K sense.

 Insectum7 wrote:


the chappy was kinda positioned as the unoffical XO of the company. I think Lts make so much more sense then that TBH

I think the better set up is having the Lts. as sub Captain and Chaplain. They come two for a slot, after all. Warrior monks having their spiritual leaders in permanent position of authority makes good 40K sense.

Breton wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:
You don't see many Gravis Captains because the model was available in ONE box set at the release of 8th edition and hasn't been available as a separate model since. For just about all of 8th edition, he was the best Captain to take in a Primaris force. But I digress...

This is all pointless speculation as the new codex drops next month.

I'd say you don't see him because the mini-Calgar Aggressors are better, and give the other chapters a more true Calgar cross over combined with the named specials having too much of the Chapter Flavor in their special so if you want to double down on their flavor, you have to take the named even if he is twice the price

I'd say you don't see him much because he has to get up close and personal to contribute much and he's competing with various Terminator Captains, the Captain on a Bike, and to a lesser extent the Primaris Captain with the PF and Plasma Pistol in that role, all of which are cheaper, have less overlap in the base gear that they're paying for, and have a better selection of optional gear and/or relics.

A bit late to the Gravis bike discussion, but, Gravis Marine armor already has a 'fast' version of it, via Inceptors. Same design style as Gravis, just with a giant backpack and a fethawful flight stand that makes me want to tear my hair out.

Fast attack slot, higher movement (than gravis), twin weapons... Just with Fly that most* bikes don't have.

However, the true evolution is to get real Gravis Outriders, then Gravis Inceptor Outriders after them.

Yeah I'd seriously consider using him, depends on the list. Likely his gun does +1 damage so he should be pretty good up close and contribute at range, and he's less vulnerable to snipers than the other shooty captains.

But I've learned to wait and see for this stuff. I had this plan to use the Phobos Captain with my Deathwatch, with +1 damage WT, +1 damage relic, and special issue ammo on his sniper rifle. But Deathwatch didn't get access to those guys. Now they do, but those traits/ammo probably won't be available.

Breton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:


the chappy was kinda positioned as the unoffical XO of the company. I think Lts make so much more sense then that TBH

I think the better set up is having the Lts. as sub Captain and Chaplain. They come two for a slot, after all. Warrior monks having their spiritual leaders in permanent position of authority makes good 40K sense.

That also works with the Two Batallion Demi-Company Gladius Strike Force they had going. You need four HQs Captain, Chaplain, two LT's.

 Slowroll wrote:
Yeah I'd seriously consider using him, depends on the list. Likely his gun does +1 damage so he should be pretty good up close and contribute at range, and he's less vulnerable to snipers than the other shooty captains.

His gun is a pistol 3, so he loves the Assault doctrine. He’s good as a cheap option to run with Aggressors and/or Eradicators. I like GMan better because even with about triple the price he synergizes with them so well, +1 to advance and charge, CM and Lt rerolls, plus the beat sick surrounded by a lot of Gravis wounds to peel back first.

Oh wait, Which “him”? I just realized you might mean the Heavy Intercessor Cap?

But I've learned to wait and see for this stuff. I had this plan to use the Phobos Captain with my Deathwatch, with +1 damage WT, +1 damage relic, and special issue ammo on his sniper rifle. But Deathwatch didn't get access to those guys. Now they do, but those traits/ammo probably won't be available.

Death Watch are supposed to come out of the main codex with their own Chapter style supplement. I absolutely agree wait and see, but if the WT is in the main codex, you should be good to go.

BrianDavion wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:


the chappy was kinda positioned as the unoffical XO of the company. I think Lts make so much more sense then that TBH

I think the better set up is having the Lts. as sub Captain and Chaplain. They come two for a slot, after all. Warrior monks having their spiritual leaders in permanent position of authority makes good 40K sense.

That also works with the Two Batallion Demi-Company Gladius Strike Force they had going. You need four HQs Captain, Chaplain, two LT's.

a spiritual leader isn't going to be part of the chain of command though, that's..... kinda the point

Why not? This is the universe with a walking cathedral war machine. Personally I like the idea that the warrior death cult leaders would be integral to marine command.