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Made in us
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin





Livermore, Ca

The requirement is not more than two FARSIGHT ENCLAVE COMMANDERS... not any two random commanders, not even a commander that doesn't break FSE detachment rules, but two full fledged FSE Commanders.


And Shadowsuns only real use in that list is that her drones special abilities other than savior protocals, are not sept locked. Is it worth a 6+ FNP to field her vs an FSE enforcer with more guns? I want to say that I'm impressed that the list was able to beat the double C'Tan list. It doesn't look like it would work.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/08 20:09:14


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
 Sazzlefrats wrote:
Yeah I don't think your first patrol is legal.

From the Greater Good "If you are playing a matched play game with a
Battle-forged army, you can include no more than
two FARSIGHT ENCLAVES COMMANDER units
in each Detachment."


There are only two commanders in each of the detachments shown.

Shadowsun doesn't count as she lacks the Farsight keyword.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




 Sazzlefrats wrote:
Yeah I don't think your first patrol is legal.

From the Greater Good "If you are playing a matched play game with a
Battle-forged army, you can include no more than
two FARSIGHT ENCLAVES COMMANDER units
in each Detachment."


Indeed it does say that but that doesn't prohibit non-Farsight Commanders in addition Shadowsun's Supreme Commander ability allows her to be deployed into any Tau Empire detatchment and not impact the Army's Battleforged status - although she doesn't gain the Sept/Farisight Abilities.

Arguably you can bring three commanders in a Farsight Detachment if one is Shadowsun as RAW there is nothing to say you cannot. Every time I've brought a list like that however I have asked for my opponents consent and explained the rules - if people don't understand I don't bring her, those who consent think Tau should take every advantage they can take right now.
   
Made in us
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin





Livermore, Ca

If you have opponents permission go for it. In matched play its not legal.

Supreme Commander: This model can be included in
a T’AU EMPIRE Detachment without preventing other
units in that Detachment from gaining a Sept Tenet.

This only allows you to mix Septs, without breaking the sept benefit for all the other models in that detachment. It says nothing about overriding the commander limits per detachment.


So as to not rehash an older debate please reference https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/791672.page

Anyhow... how did you play your list against the necrons? Who went first?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/09 01:17:03


 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




 Sazzlefrats wrote:
If you have opponents permission go for it. In matched play its not legal.

Supreme Commander: This model can be included in
a T’AU EMPIRE Detachment without preventing other
units in that Detachment from gaining a Sept Tenet.

This only allows you to mix Septs, without breaking the sept benefit for all the other models in that detachment. It says nothing about overriding the commander limits per detachment.


So as to not rehash an older debate please reference https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/791672.page

Anyhow... how did you play your list against the necrons? Who went first?



Oh yeah I saw that thread , I have emailed GW about it as it would be easier with clarification as I can see both arguments. (The Eight exist as a precedent that you can have more that 2 commanders in a detachment (they've got 6) one presumes they didn't mean for Shadowsun to be a gettaround of the Farsight Commanders.


Re: Necrons:
Spoiler:

We did GT 33 Priority Target: (Deployment is diagonal)
Tau secondries:
Engage on All Fronts (EoAF)
Bring it Down (BiD)
Priority Targes (PT)

Necron secondries:
Purge the Vermin (PtV)
Assassinate (Ass)
While We Stand We Fight (WWS) [Silent King, Nightbringer, Void Dragon]

I went first, deployed Shadowsun in No Mans Land behind obscuring terrain, the three Coldstars, Ovesa (The Eight's Riptide) and breachers behind obscuring terrain. The rest of the Eight were in deep strike

First turn - Coldstars advanced to behind obscuring terrain in the middle of the board and Ovesa fired at the Void Dragon and took him down three wounds. One breacher moves to the far corner away from my deployment.

Necrons advanced the Void Dragon and Night Bringer forward behind obscuring terrain as I was out of range so the C'Tan powers couldn't be used any way. Moved one unit of Wraiths towards the middle and another towards the corner outside but nearest to his deployment zone. Moved two of the Doomwalkers into obscuring terrain and kept one behind obscuring terrain with the Silent King.

Couldn't fire/charge anything.

First Round - 15 (3 PT + 2 EoAF) vs 10

Second Round - I'm on the priority objective in my deployment but that's it, Coldstars waited behind cover, I brought down one of the Eight, Arra'kon (CIB+ AFP) onto an objective in cover with his drones and the Broadside in the corner the wraiths were heading for. Brought in another of the Eight, Bravestorm (Onager Gauntler) to back up the breachers.

Riptide moves and shoots at one of the Doomstalkers, injuring it. The Broadside and his drones fired at the Silent King but all wounds were saved.

Necrons:

Wraiths go into the middle objective, Nightbringer stays near to the Silent King, Void Dragon moves towards the corner with the Breachers and the Commander.

Only one C'Tan power is able to be used, the one where you pick three units and if your roll less than the number of models in that unit score D3 mortal wounds - I lose 1 Breacher and Shadowsun's Drones.

Doomstalker and Silent King shoot my Broadside and his drones, his drones get killed and then he takes the Menhirs (BS 2+ S10 -5AP D: flat 6) to the face and his killed.

Second Round - 20 (5 OBJ + 3 PT + 2 EoAF) vs 20 (5 OBJ + 3 Ass + 2 PtV)

Third Round:
The rest of the Eight drop in around the Wraiths in the middle objective, Shadowsun moves towards the aforementioned Wraiths to help kill them.
Three Coldstars Mont'ka and go behind the Silent King.

Riptide, Shadowsun, Farsight, Brightsword, Shavastos, Torchstar, Arra'kon fire on the Wraiths - they deal 3 wounds (killing one) - all hail the 4++.

The Coldstars fair a little better and kill the Menhirs and take the Silent king down a few wounds.

Necrons:
Void Dragon goes to sit on the objective nearest the breachers. Nighbringer hangs around to help kill the Coldstars. Wraiths who were going towards Arra'kon turn back on themselves towards the Coldstars in order to prevent the Silent King from taking the overwatch.

C'Tan powers butter up the Coldstars and deal some wounds to the Riptide. 2 Doomstalkers fire at Shadowsun but she survives with a few wounds. 2 Coldstars die in the shooting phase to the Silent King and a Doomstalker, then the third is killed in the Fight Phase.

Third Round - 36 (10 OBJ + 3 PT + 3 EoAF) vs 36 (10 OBJ + 9 ASS + 2 PtV)

Forth Round:

The Eight move up on the Wraiths on the middle objective, Shadowsun moves around them to fourth table quarter. Breachers successfully advance into the Void Dragon's Objective with Bravestorm a little behind. Riptide moves towards middle of the board.

The gang fails to kill the Wraiths again, only killing another + wounding a second. Shadowsun and Riptide shoot a Doomstalker to wound it further, do a few wounds but fail to kill. Breachers knock a few wounds off of Void Dragon.

Farsight, Brightsword, Torchstar, Shavastos charge the Wraiths, but only kill the injured one due to movement preventing most of them from engaging the second however they hold the middle of the board.

Necrons:

Surviving Wraith falls back outside of wholly within the middle objective.

Nightbringer rocks up on the middle of the board and with a CP unleashes three C'TAN Power, kills a couple of drones and Shavastos, injures Farsight, Brightsword and Shadowsun. Silent King and Doomstalker move towards the middle of the board. Four man wraiths move towards Arra'kon on his objective.

Void Dragon kills one more Breacher and does some more wounds to the Riptide.

Doomstalker unloads on the commanders before the Nightbringer charges in, Brightsword and his drones are killed in the shooting phase. Shadows sits in the objective with 1 wound.

Nightbriger kills Farsight, Shavastos before consolidating into Torchstar who memulously deals three wounds to it in the fight phase, leaving the Nightbringer on 1 after overwatch and Arra'kon AFP shooting at it. Meanwhile Void Dragon fails his charge on the breachers owing to the tall wall in between them.

Forth Round: 52 (10 OBJ + 3 PT + 3 EOAF) vs 42 (5 OBJ + 3 ASS)

I hold four objectives with my survivors and have amassed some CP after not spending much and having accumulated it thanks to one of The Eight's abilities.

Shadowsun goes toward the wounded Doomstalker, Torchstar falls back, Bravestorm, his and Ovesa's drone make towards the void dragon. I try everything including the 3CP Orbital Ion beam to kill the Nightbringer but fail. Shadowsun kills a Doomstalker, Void dragon is injured.

Charge phase; charge the Void Dragon with Bravestorm and the drones, and the Riptide had Nova'd to move 2D6 in the charge phase and was able to get whole within the middle objective. After the fight phase the drones protected Bravestorm and the Void Dragon was left on 2 wounds.

Fifth Round 76 (15 OBJ + 3 PT + 3 EOAF +3 BID) vs 42 (FOLDS)

My opponent folds as even with 15 from WWS he only held one objective +5, had maxed out ASS, and even if he had killed all my units would only have being able to get 8 more points from PtV which would have left him on 70 points.


A funny game as I only killed 1 unit. It worked in my favour to use up 2 turns doing nothing and keeping the best part of a 1000 points of his army occupied in a corner because of a triple Coldstar threat and almost a thousands points lurking in deepstrike. One doesn't want to be exposed to a triple Coldstar with a load of the Eight dropping in right behind them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/19 14:01:53


 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





So, I have bought myself a starpulse cadre and start collecting box for 2021. Plan to go FSE as it would have been my choice anyway. Apart from dropping the ethereal, where to next?
Do I need to buy separate commander kits, or do crisis suits make commanders too?
As for Farsight, not buying resin so I assume a conversion should be easy enough from commander kit.
Hesitant to buy codex, but doesn't look like Tau will ve out for awhile.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/30 15:34:54


 
   
Made in ca
Junior Officer with Laspistol





London, Ontario

While I don’t have it (yet), the PA Greater Good adds a lot of goodies to the Tau arsenal.

I make *my* commanders out of regular Crisis suits and give them a fancy paint job for Irridium armour.

FSE’s big schtick is piling on the Commanders in small detachments. My (limited to 9th edition) experience is that troops are very important, I tend to max out a Battalion with 6x 5man FW Squads at 1500 points. With Fireblades, the warriors put out substantial firepower.

Having a small swarm of drones to follow each commander will be good, to use saviour protocols with. Maybe 6 each?

Not sure of the exact points, but something like 3x the following as a base...

Patrol
2x Commanders
2x 5 FW
2x 5 Drones (keeps blast from benefitting due to size

A patrol like this fits inside 500 points, with loaded Commanders. Exact loadouts might need to fudge around to fit, but yeah, I’d probably start there for FSE.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/12/30 17:21:33


 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





Is Farsight a "must take" for FSE?
I figure right now I can go 5x crisis suits and use 6th as a commander (making 2 in the detachment), maybe making the suits vet (I do have the PA book).
   
Made in ca
Junior Officer with Laspistol





London, Ontario

Well, not required. But the 2nd thing FSE does is give you access to Farsight, a melee Commander, and the fusion blades, for another melee Commander.

Not sure of the utility there, but it is a unique option / strategy that only FSE can pull off.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 bullyboy wrote:
Is Farsight a "must take" for FSE?


In general, no. The double Mont'Ka is nice, but you sacrifice all of the shooting of a Commander tier battlesuit, which is a lot. He opens up some routes which can be surprising for Tau (bumrushing somebody who thinks that Tau auto-lose if you put a single high mobility melee unit on the table with three melee commanders plus a gaggle of Crisis Bodyguards is always worth it for laughs), but he's nowhere near an auto-take.
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





Dare I even ask about The Eight? Seem interesting in concept.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




It's a hugely fun narrative device, but mechanically on the table it's a nightmare to keep track of unless you explicitly and clearly build each member of the team to their specific loadout (which are frankly not too efficacious either).

Unfortunately, to get them on the table is such a huge tax to pay. Because of the 9th detachment rules you're not only giving up all your relics, but more than half of your CP and only have 750 points left to fill out your army.
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





Ouch, just looking at it, yeah...so many CPs just to field it, then you need another detachment to get some Troops into the game. Shame because what I have/ordered would make the 8 fit rather well.

OK, so, looking at what I have for FSE currently (starpulse cadre and start collecting), and a plan to move forward.

1 Commander - I assume a Coldstar is a pretty decent investment?
1 Commander (from the crisis suits) - iridium armour for this fellow? Does iridium armour have a separate piece or is it just painted differently?
5 crisis suits - spend 2CP to make vets - really don't know how to equip these guys
4x5 breachers, is it worth it to add Guardian drone for just 5 breachers? I figured if in units of 10 it might be worth it, not sure with 5.
2x5 pathfinders. Ion rifles worth the upgrade?
Broadside - probably a railgun (will get a second)
Piranha - will add a couple more.

Will probably add a second detachment for 2 more commanders, and I think I want to add fireblades to one at least.
best addition to what I have? another start collecting?

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The iridium armor is another chest bit in the XV8 kit (it has an extended neckplate and broader breastplate).

A Veteran Crisis Suit bomb is pretty much an auto-take in an Enclave detachment (you're going to want to pay the few extra points per model to make them Bodyguards if you can). Loadout wise I'm personally partial to the twin CiBs + ATS, but there are arguments for Triple CIB or Missiles.

Pathfinders are sadly just waiting to die. T3/5+ isnt a platform that can deliver special weapons.

I'm personally not a fan of the Guardian drone (mostly because it takes the place of another Shield drone), but remember its effect is not restricted to a single Fire Warrior team.

The old Start Collecting is easily the best bang for your buck in terms of getting a Tau force off the ground. A full 10-man fire warrior team, a 3-pack of XV8s and a character (that can easily be converted into a Fireblade) for just a smidge more than an XV8 kit is solid gold.
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Cobleskill

take a trio of Stormsurges and a patrol with Shadowsun. It can be any sept as Shadowsun can be in literally any sept, keep the stormsurges castled around Shadowsun's 6+++ drone so your opponent has no LOS to it and your stormsurges can all benefit from its FNP.

'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
Racerguy180 wrote:
rules come and go, models are forever...like herpes.
 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





Ok, so a single guardian drone might be worth it if you have 2 5 man breacher teams close by.
I guess I don't understand adding drones to units that will die to a stiff breeze anyway. 5++ only matters if hit by AP2 and who is wasting that on Tau infantry?
Also, multiple small drone units just gives up secondaries, right? But I guess if taking piranhas or devilfish, that's par for the course.
Super new to Tau so not grasping the benefits of small drone units yet.
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Cobleskill

 bullyboy wrote:
Ok, so a single guardian drone might be worth it if you have 2 5 man breacher teams close by.
I guess I don't understand adding drones to units that will die to a stiff breeze anyway. 5++ only matters if hit by AP2 and who is wasting that on Tau infantry?
Also, multiple small drone units just gives up secondaries, right? But I guess if taking piranhas or devilfish, that's par for the course.
Super new to Tau so not grasping the benefits of small drone units yet.


While small drone units may give up KPs, it can also lead to overkills and errors in targeting when your opponent fails to realize that each drone in that swarm is its own unit. Is that D-baggery? Possibly, but it also can lead to more survival among your drones, which allows you to use Drone protocols as they are intended to be used. (And most secondary objectives have a cap, so your opponent can only reap so much benefit for killing so many units of drones.

Oh, to answer your question as to why you would 'include drones in a unit that will die to a stiff breeze anyway': If you take a Gun Drone and a Marker Drone as drones in a Strike Team for instance, each becomes its own unit after deployment. And like an old IG Infantry Platoon, each part counts as a troop (so each drone has Objective Secured) unless that was erratad somewhere. As much as we Tau players may hate CC, when our opponent realizes that there are 5 troop units on an objective, they may not bother going for that objective. And if your opponent tries to use "Cut Them Down', ask how many units it can target (Hint: 1).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/01 15:28:53


'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
Racerguy180 wrote:
rules come and go, models are forever...like herpes.
 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





How come the 2 drones are separate units? Wouldn't they be a single unit of 2 drones, regardless of type?
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Cobleskill

 bullyboy wrote:
How come the 2 drones are separate units? Wouldn't they be a single unit of 2 drones, regardless of type?


erm yes, but the point stands. how many Gun Drone units would you like to field? How much overkill or failed target priority is your opponent willing to put up with? With enough abuse, I'd love to see us go back to templates.

'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
Racerguy180 wrote:
rules come and go, models are forever...like herpes.
 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





 carldooley wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
How come the 2 drones are separate units? Wouldn't they be a single unit of 2 drones, regardless of type?


erm yes, but the point stands. how many Gun Drone units would you like to field? How much overkill or failed target priority is your opponent willing to put up with? With enough abuse, I'd love to see us go back to templates.


No, I get it, I was just trying to understand why you said each would be a separate unit. Makes sense for playing MSU to flood the table with targets for an opponent which can lead to overkill.
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





I know it's a beta, but can't figure out how you add drones to units in the 40K army builder app. Guessing it's just a bug?

Still torn between going The Eight plus support (for pure fun games) or just a generic Farsight Enclave force. One major bonus about the Eight is the decreased need to obtain cyclic ion blasters and airburst fragmentation launchers, and that my current collection matches up really well.
Downside about The Eight is that the suit loadouts are not exactly something you'd use typically, and I'm not really into wanting to magnetize.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




 bullyboy wrote:
I know it's a beta, but can't figure out how you add drones to units in the 40K army builder app. Guessing it's just a bug?

Still torn between going The Eight plus support (for pure fun games) or just a generic Farsight Enclave force. One major bonus about the Eight is the decreased need to obtain cyclic ion blasters and airburst fragmentation launchers, and that my current collection matches up really well.
Downside about The Eight is that the suit loadouts are not exactly something you'd use typically, and I'm not really into wanting to magnetize.


Use Battlescribe, https://battlescribe.net/?tab=news
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





Chenko_chenko wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
I know it's a beta, but can't figure out how you add drones to units in the 40K army builder app. Guessing it's just a bug?

Still torn between going The Eight plus support (for pure fun games) or just a generic Farsight Enclave force. One major bonus about the Eight is the decreased need to obtain cyclic ion blasters and airburst fragmentation launchers, and that my current collection matches up really well.
Downside about The Eight is that the suit loadouts are not exactly something you'd use typically, and I'm not really into wanting to magnetize.


Use Battlescribe, https://battlescribe.net/?tab=news


not a fan of battlescribe at all. GW one is a little more user friendly for a first timer with non paper lists, but has some bugs to work out. Thanks for the link though.
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





Talking CP, it looks like my Tau list will be very thirsty with pre-game CP which leaves me with very little in game CP (not good)

2CP for additional Patrol to gain access to more Commanders
2CP for 5 vet crisis bodyguards
3CP for relics (fusion blades (on Coldstar commander), Supernova launcher (on crisis commander), Reactive Countermeasures (bodyguard iridium suit).

Starting with 5CP sounds like a terrible idea, so I'm thinking I should drop one of the above (either fusion blades or supernova launcher). I'll probably drop the supernova, since it's a variable shot weapon although good vs marines. I just want to keep some close combat options as I expect it is inevitable in 9th. That means I will at least start with 7CP.
   
Made in us
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin





Livermore, Ca

 bullyboy wrote:
Talking CP, it looks like my Tau list will be very thirsty with pre-game CP which leaves me with very little in game CP (not good)

2CP for additional Patrol to gain access to more Commanders
2CP for 5 vet crisis bodyguards
3CP for relics (fusion blades (on Coldstar commander), Supernova launcher (on crisis commander), Reactive Countermeasures (bodyguard iridium suit).

Starting with 5CP sounds like a terrible idea, so I'm thinking I should drop one of the above (either fusion blades or supernova launcher). I'll probably drop the supernova, since it's a variable shot weapon although good vs marines. I just want to keep some close combat options as I expect it is inevitable in 9th. That means I will at least start with 7CP.


Probably toss fusion blades before super nova launcher. There's little incentive to make tau mellee orientated. Plus you got the mortal wound mellee statagem already if things go south.
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Cobleskill

 Sazzlefrats wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
Talking CP, it looks like my Tau list will be very thirsty with pre-game CP which leaves me with very little in game CP (not good)

2CP for additional Patrol to gain access to more Commanders
2CP for 5 vet crisis bodyguards
3CP for relics (fusion blades (on Coldstar commander), Supernova launcher (on crisis commander), Reactive Countermeasures (bodyguard iridium suit).

Starting with 5CP sounds like a terrible idea, so I'm thinking I should drop one of the above (either fusion blades or supernova launcher). I'll probably drop the supernova, since it's a variable shot weapon although good vs marines. I just want to keep some close combat options as I expect it is inevitable in 9th. That means I will at least start with 7CP.


Probably toss fusion blades before super nova launcher. There's little incentive to make tau mellee orientated. Plus you got the mortal wound mellee statagem already if things go south.


Ya'all are aware that ATS works in melee as well, yes?

'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
Racerguy180 wrote:
rules come and go, models are forever...like herpes.
 
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





 carldooley wrote:
 Sazzlefrats wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
Talking CP, it looks like my Tau list will be very thirsty with pre-game CP which leaves me with very little in game CP (not good)

2CP for additional Patrol to gain access to more Commanders
2CP for 5 vet crisis bodyguards
3CP for relics (fusion blades (on Coldstar commander), Supernova launcher (on crisis commander), Reactive Countermeasures (bodyguard iridium suit).

Starting with 5CP sounds like a terrible idea, so I'm thinking I should drop one of the above (either fusion blades or supernova launcher). I'll probably drop the supernova, since it's a variable shot weapon although good vs marines. I just want to keep some close combat options as I expect it is inevitable in 9th. That means I will at least start with 7CP.


Probably toss fusion blades before super nova launcher. There's little incentive to make tau mellee orientated. Plus you got the mortal wound mellee statagem already if things go south.


Ya'all are aware that ATS works in melee as well, yes?


was not aware of that, but is hugely satisfying to know. Farsight crisis bodyguards with majority ATS migh just be a solid for me.
   
Made in ca
Junior Officer with Laspistol





London, Ontario

I was aware, yes... but AP -1 is far from a Beat-Stick stat in melee.

Lots of fun on Missile Pods, though. I have found it gives them a real bite.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 greatbigtree wrote:
I was aware, yes... but AP -1 is far from a Beat-Stick stat in melee.


S5 AP1 may not sound like much, but when you're rerolling all hits and wounds, plus doing mortals on the charge, they can do some not inconsiderable work. There's a reason you pay the smidgeon of points to upgrade from Crisis Suits to Crisis Bodyguards.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 greatbigtree wrote:
I was aware, yes... but AP -1 is far from a Beat-Stick stat in melee.

Lots of fun on Missile Pods, though. I have found it gives them a real bite.

Stack it on vet body crusis suits and it's about the only viable CC unit we have besides Farsight himself and 9th really does need a viable CC unit for objectives.
   
 
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