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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Not Online!!! wrote:
Yeah that is why the faction that was allready there, representing it, and existed allready, has been soft squatted.
If you want to talk about Bloat and fuel on fire, talk about marines and supplements, not a non-PA army that allready existed and worked.
Grot tanks were also soft squatted, and dozens of other factions. Codex D-99s anyone? GW had a whole seperate company dedicated to keeping these up to date and still couldn't manage it.

And yes, codex <insert chapter/legion/other> here is bloat. Credit I think to GW moving a little away from distinct codex releases to supplements, hamstrung of course by their insistence on models=rules over kitbashes.
   
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Flashy Flashgitz






 Lord Damocles wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
A lot of Chaos marine units could be combined, which would free up more space for more non-Marines.

There is a relatively limited amount of design space for slightly different spikey humans though, which is a problem Cultists and Tzaangors already suffer from.

Take inspiration from GSC. They've got a lot of distinct units.

Eh. Neophtes and Brood Brothers have significant overlap, as do Acolytes and Matamorphs.


I have a large gen cult army, and i pray you don't get the 9th ed treatment we did. While not as inefficient as some claim it to be, gen cult is huge pain in the b... to play ATM, more than it ever was since ceration in 7th (which was when i strated my gen cult army). Actually, writing this, I think I am just going to ebay all of my gen cult and be done with em

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/20 13:16:04


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What I find funny here is, when was the last time you actually saw a marine in a Chaos Marine army?

But yeah, at the very least, I'd love to be able to have some cultisits loaded up in a few Chimeras or something like that. There's a world of flavor to be had by being able to do traitor guard or "Chaos Militia" etc.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
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Casting my memory back to vraks, weren't the chaos marines elite choices for what was in essence renegades and heretics? You had all the chaff and mutants etc with a lord for a hq and a unit of marines as elites to support.
   
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Right behind you.

Dudeface wrote:
Casting my memory back to vraks, weren't the chaos marines elite choices for what was in essence renegades and heretics? You had all the chaff and mutants etc with a lord for a hq and a unit of marines as elites to support.

Which iteration of the list?
   
Made in ca
Mysterious Techpriest






Karol wrote:
But before that wasn't it the case that csm armies were running practicaly no csm, because cultists were cheaper and point for point better then csm?


Which is the problem.
CSM should be feared, cultists shouldn't even be in their codex.

This is how i feel chaos should be subdivided :

Renegades & Heretics
Chaos Knights
Dark Mechanicum
CSM
Deathguard + Nurgle demons
Thousand sons + Tzeentch demons
Emperors children + Slaanesh demons
World eaters + Khorne demons




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 Kanluwen wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Casting my memory back to vraks, weren't the chaos marines elite choices for what was in essence renegades and heretics? You had all the chaff and mutants etc with a lord for a hq and a unit of marines as elites to support.

Which iteration of the list?


The free vraks one had Alpha legionaires (aka squad of CSM with infiltrate) as an elite option.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
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Dudeface wrote:
Casting my memory back to vraks, weren't the chaos marines elite choices for what was in essence renegades and heretics? You had all the chaff and mutants etc with a lord for a hq and a unit of marines as elites to support.
Vraks 5 - 0-1 alpha legion elite
Vraks 6 - khorne champion and zerkers
Vraks 7 - nurgle champion and plague marines
After 3 years of renegades the releases stratched out a bit-
IA 9 - tyrant legion - guard with variant tactical and assault squads, character units, and heavy units taken from the loyalist marine books. Literally spikey marines.
IA 13 - allied battlebrothers for the entire chaos marine line, noise marines/dreads with the right HQ.
Vraks 5 v2 - no marines, battlebrothers with chaos, included 'the purge' which folded almost the entire chaos marine book in as unit options.
Imperial Armour Index Forces of the Astra Militarum - extra units and a list of imperial guard units that could be re-tagged to <chaos> and thrown into a chaos list/ally.

I fielded the IA13/5v2 renegades in a mixed tournament years ago - they made the krieg look like dads army. 144 points got you an obsec troops choice with toughness 7, 28 wounds, and 12 long range strength 5 small blast pinning(at -1) barrage attacks that created lingering dangerous terrain and could be fired into ongoing close combat.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/20 15:15:45


 
   
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Technically IA13 allowed for sonic brutes and singular unit of noise marines.


Also, the Vraks v2 book in combination with the purge formation and the arty tyrant is the parade exemple why formations were fething nuts and needed the dodo.

Shame that gw reimplemented them partially with stratagems again...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/20 15:12:40


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
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Not Online!!! wrote:
Technically IA13 allowed for sonic brutes and singular unit of noise marines.
Covenant of Slaanesh. I hadn't considered it given that the battlebrother rules were in by that point.
   
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A.T. wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Technically IA13 allowed for sonic brutes and singular unit of noise marines.
Covenant of Slaanesh. I hadn't considered it given that the battlebrother rules were in by that point.


Tbf, 6-7 th allies were a parade exemple shitshow.
the Purge formation shenanigans were on the "lighter" side compared to some of the other nonsense that one could pull. Taudar....

I do have half a feeling though, that if the allies rules , especially for BB wouldn't have been that synergistic, both editions wouldn't have turned out half as bad.

But then again GW didn't learn that allies were an issue until 9th...

Considering the initial wave of CHAOS tournament lists from 8th consiting of brimstones, Malefics , and later on the glorious CP farms + castlan + random blood angel with jumppack and a hammer produced in the 40k equivalent of china seemingly...

Atleast now those excesses were curbed, otoh we now have a ruleset with missions designed in a way that the first turn winrate is frankly even more nuts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/20 15:21:15


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 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
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I said before that Chaos should be divided by god like AoS.

Khorne Marines should be a faction with Khorne Daemons

Nurgle Marines with Nurgle Daemons

Etc.
   
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 dan2026 wrote:
I said before that Chaos should be divided by god like AoS.

Khorne Marines should be a faction with Khorne Daemons

Nurgle Marines with Nurgle Daemons

Etc.


yeah, and put unaligned demons (basically belakor) in the base CSM codex.

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 dan2026 wrote:
I said before that Chaos should be divided by god like AoS.

Khorne Marines should be a faction with Khorne Daemons

Nurgle Marines with Nurgle Daemons

Etc.


This right here. I don't understand how GW can write strong powerful thematic god specific codexes for AOS but fail so miserably to do the same thing in 40k.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/20 17:54:36


 
   
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The Salt Mine wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
I said before that Chaos should be divided by god like AoS.

Khorne Marines should be a faction with Khorne Daemons

Nurgle Marines with Nurgle Daemons

Etc.


This right here. I don't understand how GW can write strong powerful thematic god specific codexes for AOS but fail so miserably to do the same thing in 40k.


I'd hazard the main problem is change. They'd wiped the slate clean for sigmar so there wasn't any awkward handovers or overlaps, they simply made the books how they wanted.

In 40k with DG or what would be nurgle next month, how would you manage having the most up to date rules for 1/4 of a codex daemons army in codex death guard, or given there are only 2 god specific books so far, what happens to the remaining daemons. If you propose WE/EC books, then the first half of 2021 would be chaos releases clustered together probably and you trigger the "oh no, more marines" fun again.

Then there is the chunk of people who own multi-god daemon forces currently who would; rightly in my eyes, simply quit rather than have to buy 4 codex to play their existing force.
   
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A separate codex could be done. But I fear a "mortal followers of chaos" army would either look like an IG clone, or just a mishmash of Imperial Guard, CSM, and Daemons. Which you can do with allies anyway.

Thats not to say it couldn't be a passable codex. Its not like we don't have a ton of same'y codices already.

What the ideal Chaos Worshipper's codex would look like would probably be,

HQ Choices: Cult leader with some special abilities based around different marks and buffing the cult units. Generic Chaos Space Marine lords. Daemon Prince.

Troop Choices: Basic cultist unit, cheap with only moderate weapon variety. Traitor Imperial Guard, a more elite troop choice with higher end weapon choices.

Elite Choices: Generic Chaos Space Marines, count as troops for objectives and provide an elite unit. Daemons. Heavy weapon crews.

Fast Attack: Bike cultists could be cool. Sentinals, hijacked Imperial Guard vehicles, etc... Daemons. CSM with jetpacks.

Heavy Support: Hijacked Imperial Guard and CSM vehicles. Some sort of ramshackle artillery piece. An Armored Bulldozer with guns!

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I'd love to see renegades, but with dark mechanicum mixed in. Too many different factions isn't good.

In fact, I'd probably throw chaos knights in too. Make sure there are options in every FO slot so you can field pure dark mech/renegade/chaos knights lists

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Across the Rubicon

Tycho wrote:What I find funny here is, when was the last time you actually saw a marine in a Chaos Marine army?

But yeah, at the very least, I'd love to be able to have some cultisits loaded up in a few Chimeras or something like that. There's a world of flavor to be had by being able to do traitor guard or "Chaos Militia" etc.


About June-July when I was playing my Black Legion (spoiler is a photo of last time they were on the table) plus someone else in my gaming groupe when they brought their Night Lords. This is assuming you don't mean Death Guard or Thousand Sons as my group also has one of each of them too. I am nearly as insane as the Chaos Space Marines I field so I also run them in 10 man squads with Icon of Vengeance for that not-so-sweet Leadership 10, and I like the look of 10 man squads more than MSU. It just feels more Black Legion-y to me.

Spoiler:


I do agree with the idea that I don't want cultists completely removed from C: CSM. I technically don't even mind them being kinda point inefficient in terms of what you get when. I think their main draw being cheaper warm bodies and that's about it. That said, C:CSM needs more than two Troop options for a game. Since it is called C:CSM, maybe CSM should a good unit to take. Barring that, make regular CSM weak version of loyalist Firstborn but fewer points (basically V:tM's Shovelheads) and either move Chosen to Troops and/or create Veterans of the Long War CSM unit being more points but more than a match for Firstborn and/or Primaris.

VladimirHerzog wrote:
Karol wrote:
But before that wasn't it the case that csm armies were running practicaly no csm, because cultists were cheaper and point for point better then csm?


Which is the problem.
CSM should be feared, cultists shouldn't even be in their codex.

This is how i feel chaos should be subdivided :

Renegades & Heretics
Chaos Knights
Dark Mechanicum
CSM
Deathguard + Nurgle demons
Thousand sons + Tzeentch demons
Emperors children + Slaanesh demons
World eaters + Khorne demons


Again, I don't have an issue with CSM keeping Cultists. I am even okay with them being a bit more points than a R&H version as they serve more as a warm body slot filler saving a few points than as the core of an army. I also think that maybe in the case of something like Alpha Legion, make Tide of Traitors a legion specific stratagem or something.

I don't have much of an issue breaking of the codices like you listed. I think is works very well in Age of Sigmar. As a Slaves to Darkness player it really doesn't bother that most of my own army (mostly Chaos Warriors and Knights) is composed units that can also be in the Choas god specific factions without allying. S2D get enough to feel like their own even if they are a little more generic bad guys feeling because of it. That is kinda the draw for me anyways.

Again, I think CSM in particular would need their Troop options looked at. Actually, I think they need their Troop slot options looked at now only having the two. I feel that all 40k factions should have at least three as a rule of thumb since they should dictate the direction the army is going overall and everyone should have their version of Chaff, Normal, Elite to pick from.

   
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Dudeface wrote:
The Salt Mine wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
I said before that Chaos should be divided by god like AoS.

Khorne Marines should be a faction with Khorne Daemons

Nurgle Marines with Nurgle Daemons

Etc.


This right here. I don't understand how GW can write strong powerful thematic god specific codexes for AOS but fail so miserably to do the same thing in 40k.


I'd hazard the main problem is change. They'd wiped the slate clean for sigmar so there wasn't any awkward handovers or overlaps, they simply made the books how they wanted.

In 40k with DG or what would be nurgle next month, how would you manage having the most up to date rules for 1/4 of a codex daemons army in codex death guard, or given there are only 2 god specific books so far, what happens to the remaining daemons. If you propose WE/EC books, then the first half of 2021 would be chaos releases clustered together probably and you trigger the "oh no, more marines" fun again.

Then there is the chunk of people who own multi-god daemon forces currently who would; rightly in my eyes, simply quit rather than have to buy 4 codex to play their existing force.


AOS still has ways to run multi god armies as well. See the slaves to darkness and beastman books for example. Also the individual god books didn't come out all at once either. AOS really handless the mono god books well. Even if the warscroll isnt in the book if it can get a god specific mark it can be taken in those armies.
   
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Karol wrote:
But before that wasn't it the case that csm armies were running practicaly no csm, because cultists were cheaper and point for point better then csm?


Sure, but that's because CSM were crap rules-wise. Cultists were, too, but they were cheaper. GW's reaction isn't to make those units worth playing, though, like they would for loyalist Astartes - it was to instead nerf cultists by raising their points.

Personally, I'm in favor of keeping "Lost & the Damned/Renegades & Heretics", CSM, and Chaos Demons separate, but I can see the argument for aligning them by god. Regardless, in order to challenge the Imperium thematically, Chaos needs to be fleshed out as more than just "spiky marines."

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/20 19:08:39


 
   
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The Salt Mine wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
The Salt Mine wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
I said before that Chaos should be divided by god like AoS.

Khorne Marines should be a faction with Khorne Daemons

Nurgle Marines with Nurgle Daemons

Etc.


This right here. I don't understand how GW can write strong powerful thematic god specific codexes for AOS but fail so miserably to do the same thing in 40k.


I'd hazard the main problem is change. They'd wiped the slate clean for sigmar so there wasn't any awkward handovers or overlaps, they simply made the books how they wanted.

In 40k with DG or what would be nurgle next month, how would you manage having the most up to date rules for 1/4 of a codex daemons army in codex death guard, or given there are only 2 god specific books so far, what happens to the remaining daemons. If you propose WE/EC books, then the first half of 2021 would be chaos releases clustered together probably and you trigger the "oh no, more marines" fun again.

Then there is the chunk of people who own multi-god daemon forces currently who would; rightly in my eyes, simply quit rather than have to buy 4 codex to play their existing force.


AOS still has ways to run multi god armies as well. See the slaves to darkness and beastman books for example. Also the individual god books didn't come out all at once either. AOS really handless the mono god books well. Even if the warscroll isnt in the book if it can get a god specific mark it can be taken in those armies.


The big difference there is the 40k profiles aren't free to access online, the slaves to darkness book doesn't give you the profiles for every daemon model as far as I'm aware, or points for that matter.
   
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About June-July when I was playing my Black Legion (spoiler is a photo of last time they were on the table) plus someone else in my gaming groupe when they brought their Night Lords. This is assuming you don't mean Death Guard or Thousand Sons as my group also has one of each of them too. I am nearly as insane as the Chaos Space Marines I field so I also run them in 10 man squads with Icon of Vengeance for that not-so-sweet Leadership 10, and I like the look of 10 man squads more than MSU. It just feels more Black Legion-y to me.


Nice! No - I meant standard CSM. I actually have CSM, DG, AND Tsons and I'm also one of the rare CSM players who uses actual marines. My Iron Warriors list has 20 of them along with the cultists. I was more poking fun at the fact that the Cultists currently are, and have been, the better option.



Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
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I have to wonder if it'd really be so bad to have a set of rules that just says:

-Use the Astra Militarum codex.
-Replace the IMPERIUM keyword with Chaos.
-Use these regiments/covenants, relics, and warlord traits instead of the codex ones.
-Lose these unit options, gain these options (eg allow Conscripts to take melee weapons to represent mutant rabble).
-Lose these stratagems, gain these stratagems.

I mean, if chaos Guard aren't that different from loyalist Guard, no need to try to radically differentiate them.
   
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I have to wonder if it'd really be so bad to have a set of rules that just says:

-Use the Astra Militarum codex.
-Replace the IMPERIUM keyword with Chaos.
-Use these regiments/covenants, relics, and warlord traits instead of the codex ones.
-Lose these unit options, gain these options (eg allow Conscripts to take melee weapons to represent mutant rabble).
-Lose these stratagems, gain these stratagems.

I mean, if chaos Guard aren't that different from loyalist Guard, no need to try to radically differentiate them.


This is where I'm at as well. I would love for something simple like this. Opens up so many doors.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
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Dudeface wrote:
The Salt Mine wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
I said before that Chaos should be divided by god like AoS.

Khorne Marines should be a faction with Khorne Daemons

Nurgle Marines with Nurgle Daemons

Etc.


This right here. I don't understand how GW can write strong powerful thematic god specific codexes for AOS but fail so miserably to do the same thing in 40k.


I'd hazard the main problem is change. They'd wiped the slate clean for sigmar so there wasn't any awkward handovers or overlaps, they simply made the books how they wanted.

In 40k with DG or what would be nurgle next month, how would you manage having the most up to date rules for 1/4 of a codex daemons army in codex death guard, or given there are only 2 god specific books so far, what happens to the remaining daemons. If you propose WE/EC books, then the first half of 2021 would be chaos releases clustered together probably and you trigger the "oh no, more marines" fun again.

Then there is the chunk of people who own multi-god daemon forces currently who would; rightly in my eyes, simply quit rather than have to buy 4 codex to play their existing force.


i mean, each god aligned demon is basically its own codex.... nurgle demons having a codex before the other ones isnt a problem

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Tycho wrote:


Nice! No - I meant standard CSM. I actually have CSM, DG, AND Tsons and I'm also one of the rare CSM players who uses actual marines. My Iron Warriors list has 20 of them along with the cultists. I was more poking fun at the fact that the Cultists currently are, and have been, the better option.


I figured as much. I don't really like fielding cultists in my CSM army. Never have. So if I am bringing my Black Legion to a game my opponent can very much expect I will have at least 15 regular CSM though usually 30 with a heavy and special weapon. I do sometimes bring cultists, but they are usually the last unit added. Often because I have something like an extra 60-80 points that I can't do much with since I also tend to already run my units toy (read: war gear) heavy.

Admittedly, it isn't the most optimized. My group doesn't really like winning via army list and aren't hardcore competitive. I think most have nuclear competitive options available but don't find those game particularly enjoyable as they aren't the kind of stress we find fun. And no one in my group has to win to have fun. So we all kinda build armies we like to play. Sometimes there are blow outs, but for the most part as long as I am not bringing my GSC (bad codex + worst player) the winner isn't completely known before first dice roll.

   
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Wish granted. Invader ATVs, but with legs instead. Call them Lesser Defilers.


Or, really, 'in scale' defilers. A problem that haunts pretty much all the general CSM daemon engines except the Vencomcrawler

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Mr Raptor wrote:I'm only talking about the 40k game.

It came right after someone after was talking about Kill Team, so, I went with that context.

Mr Raptor wrote:Personally i would much rather have:
- Chaos Space marines (including death guard, TS, ect...)
- Cultists (including dark ad mech, chaos knights, chaos worshippers...)
- Daemons (including all daemons)

That's 3 codex for a whole facet of the universe.

The issue with the multiplication of factions is that not only are there more faction books to buy, but also faction updates take excessively more time. Especially with how utterly slow GW is at correcting itself when something stupid is released. I'm tired of waiting 1.5 year to get a codex update for my faction while they do nothing on the side to make it better.

There are two ways to approach Chaos codices. What you posted above, and divesting them between their loyalties, such as the Thousand Sons and Death Guard codicies that currently exist, which is why I stated up to 6 is possible.

A lot is based on what you want to be working together without problem. Death Guard and Plaguebearers or Plaguebearers and Horrors. By the listing your presenting, it is Plaguebearers with Horrors.

Of course it is easier to have certain consistencies with the set up you provided, but there needs to be built in methods to make it as easy, if not easier, for Death Guard, Plaguebearers, and Nurgle-marked IG, as it is for Marines with IG and Grey Knights.

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That's how the Codex: Armageddon handled the introduction of Black Templars, Salamanders, Speed Freaks, Steel Legion, and PDF. Now some lists were better developed than others, but this would be a workable compromise over a $50 hardcover for every new chaos variant proposed. Thus players who want the variants can have them and GW only adds 1 new product (with associated production and handling costs). However, if GW's current policy is "no model, no rules", then there is no point since they are protecting themselves from 3rd party designs, and will not support any model they are not currently producing or planning to produce.

 catbarf wrote:
I have to wonder if it'd really be so bad to have a set of rules that just says:

-Use the Astra Militarum codex.
-Replace the IMPERIUM keyword with Chaos.
-Use these regiments/covenants, relics, and warlord traits instead of the codex ones.
-Lose these unit options, gain these options (eg allow Conscripts to take melee weapons to represent mutant rabble).
-Lose these stratagems, gain these stratagems.

I mean, if chaos Guard aren't that different from loyalist Guard, no need to try to radically differentiate them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/20 21:30:41


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Made in se
Longtime Dakkanaut




Hecaton wrote:
Karol wrote:
But before that wasn't it the case that csm armies were running practicaly no csm, because cultists were cheaper and point for point better then csm?


Sure, but that's because CSM were crap rules-wise. Cultists were, too, but they were cheaper. GW's reaction isn't to make those units worth playing, though, like they would for loyalist Astartes - it was to instead nerf cultists by raising their points.

Personally, I'm in favor of keeping "Lost & the Damned/Renegades & Heretics", CSM, and Chaos Demons separate, but I can see the argument for aligning them by god. Regardless, in order to challenge the Imperium thematically, Chaos needs to be fleshed out as more than just "spiky marines."


The simple way of differentiating the strictly separated commande structures of the Imperium and the loosey-goosey rival warband nature of the Chaos Legions is to mix cultists, mutants, daemons and marines in one army. Only marines and daemons need to be different depending on which god they belong to, anyway. Cultists and mutants don't absolutely need to be separate units, either. So instead of just being meaner-looking marines they're marines with access to chaff infantry as well as weird shock troopers. This would come at the cost of razorbacks, land speeders and other specialised and new equipment that needs the superior logistical capabilities of the Imperium. Maybe CSM don't have much access to drop pods because they generally lack the ability to pick them back up again or produce a lot more after a botched raid? Maybe only the lord of the warband would have the clout to spend that sort of thing on his personal battlefield entrance?

Another way to further differentiate the two is in which weapons they use and how they approach handing guns out. Imperial marines have doctrines and defined vehicle variants that are designed from the ground up to perform specific roles according to specific standards. Whereas Chaos marines just grab guns with the range they prefer fighting in and solder whatever available weaponry they have onto whatever vehicle chassis they have. They won't bother naming a new land raider variant, they'll just bolt some flamethrowers to the sides and a plasma cannon ripped from a dreadnought that pissed them off for the last time up front. Did your predator's turret take a hit on the last raid and now the reloading mechanism is scrap? Tough luck, you got no proper replacements and have to wire a missile launcher into there if you don't want to catch hell from your masters. Same goes for infantry weapons, if you've stolen a crate of grenade launchers, heavy stubbers, mortars or similar low-tech things that even the Imperial Guard uses then you're gonna give them to your shooty-obsessed dudes.


Thinking about it, if CSM were more ferocious but bordering on over-armed that'd be a neat drawback. Like, a squad would pack bolters, bolt pistols, knives and worse, grenades, hand flamers and whatever else submachinegun or chainsword each individual could get their hands on in addition to specialist troopers with grenade launchers and assault specialists with power axes and plasma pistols. Positively bristling with firepower when a more sensible approach would be sufficient. To say nothing of what the champion would demand! CSM don't become squad leaders by being tactically minded, they do it by being awful murderers. Of course they wouldn't want a feebler gun than the people they boss around. Of course they'd nab that shiny new meltagun or autocannon. They're here to cause havoc, not be orderly. They follow the legion ethos of overwhelming might, not the chapter ethos of precise assault. Chaos marines aren't about restraint, even when it would benefit them.


Additionally I would like rules for possession that aren't just one, single unit type with no upgrades or weapons of their own. Preferably as an upgrade to existing CSM units so you can have possessed bikers or whatever, or possessed HQ dudes. It'd be fun.
   
 
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