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In the real world NBA teams and high-school basketball teams aren't playing against each other, and the quality of a high-school team is judged based on their ability to beat other high-school teams, not on their inability to beat an NBA team.

Right ... it's almost as if I'm suggesting that Marines were in a ... different league?

I don't know what it was like in your neck of the woods, but my local high-school team absolutely deserved to get beaten up by an NBA team. They probably deserved to get beaten up by actual Marines.

Wait, what were we talking about again?

Fair enough - I suppose you are pro-marine then?

Tycho wrote:

I don't know what it was like in your neck of the woods, but my local high-school team absolutely deserved to get beaten up by an NBA team. They probably deserved to get beaten up by actual Marines.

Wait, what were we talking about again?

Fair enough - I suppose you are pro-marine then?

I do support our troops. Not enlisting back then is one of my few real regrets, although I'm doing my part now.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Its cute how you defend the most OP army in the game right now by significant margins. Marines though...they just crush casual games. Harlequins cant crush casuals...

He didn't defend them. Are you paying attention?

"I can say for certain Harlequines especially meta build lists do not like some factions going by just turnament data Drukari and Admech screw with their game plans badly."
Seems like defending to me.
Quins aren't really that good - they are just good at killing marines but suck vs admech and drukari...Which is also BS. Drukari are irrelevant in comparision to harlequins.

Your very quick to state you know peoples intent but rage when anyone should even disagrees with you.

You dont know me don't apparently bother to even try and read a post in context

I'm not saying Harlequins don't rofl stomp marines.

The issue is marines being an excessive part of the tournament meta means guess that the anti marine army does way better.

Yet in my local environment where the certainty of playing marines falls through the floor, guess wha. The 1 person bringing quins to the local scene isn't out there crushing with a meta list.

For two reasons
1 Non of the marine player's will entertain a game.
2 The games that are going on between harlequins and not marines arnt oh great I got tabled GG turn 2/3 affairs so far.

So are Harlequins an OP army casually. If your a marine fan boy maybe otherwise there good at 9th missions but opressive unfun games nah.

The reasons are not simply 'cause they're popular,' but quite manifold.

They became OP by virtue of essentially having a 9th edition codex as far back as late 2019, then as 9th approached, spent an agonizing amount of time getting release after release when other factions languish with rules that couldn't sweep kittens off an objective and/or models that are old enough to legally consent.

At present, their top-end is not really OP; optimized tournament lists from other factions can have a good fight with optimized Marine lists, as we see that Marines do not completely dominate tournament tables the way they used to. Their problem is outside tournament play; they have so many good units that more casual Marine lists will, all else being equal, blow most other lists out of the water.

They do get way too much rules attention. A sticking point with me is that the Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Deathwatch all got free full Index updates that were not merely to allow them to be usable, but also introduced entirely new rules to factions, like Dark Angels' Inner Circle. These updates must have been at least some effort, and were or are only going to be valid for a few months, yet they couldn't be bothered to update CSM to 2 wounds with a points bump, damage on Fusion weapons at the same time as Melta weapons, or flamer ranges to 12" for nonstandard flame weapons, and those problems may languish for anywhere between months and years in other armies thanks to GW's antiquated release model.

That Marines are popular is a multiplier to other effects, but their popularity is why they got such focus to begin with - so maybe it's not entirely wrong to say people hate marines because they're popular. They're so popular that it felt as though they were cannibalizing the entire game to fuel their power-armored sales might.

This feeling was not helped by the way they were released, and the whole system of slowly 'leaking' models and rules for Indomitus and the C:SM 9th. Spending months watching the rich get richer by inches is exceedingly tedious, but every week there was another unnecessary tank or unit or HQ; I had to unsub from nearly all 40K Youtube channels just to go a week without tasting my own vomit. I guarantee you if it they had scarcely said a damn thing and just dropped Indomitus in our laps I would be substantially less irritated with Marines as I am/was.

It is getting better now. As long as the lens remains off Marines and codexes at similar power levels continue to be released, things will heal, but that's going to take time, and some restraint on GW's part.

So are Harlequins an OP army casually. If your a marine fan boy maybe otherwise there good at 9th missions but opressive unfun games nah.

We just took a trip back in time, and hearing the explanation why marine fan boys, who all have crazy Gulliman lists, just don't know how to play vs Inari, who are not OP, but just a good army that play good in a 8th ed setting.

I wonder if in 7th and prior editions eldar players well spinning stories like that too, that their armies were not OP, specialy not in casual settings and that it was actualy the marines that were the bad army destroying the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:


In the real world NBA teams and high-school basketball teams aren't playing against each other, and the quality of a high-school team is judged based on their ability to beat other high-school teams, not on their inability to beat an NBA team.

Which was maybe true in sports till MKOL decided that it is okey for NBA professional players to play in the olympics. So often NBA dreams team very much play vs teams made out of people in collage age.

If tournaments and FLGSs (Covid permitting) were a third Harlequins - or a third Slaanesh Daemons or whatever, you bet the complaints would flow thick and fast.

But they are not. They are by contrast regularly a third or more marines.

If you didn't see endless whinging about Eldar for the last decade, you just haven't been paying attention. People hated Wave Serpents in 6th, the whole faction got exactly the same treatment Marines are getting now in 7th, and complaining about Ynnari and flyers was continuous through 8th.

Personally, I don't give a rat's arse that Marines are overpowered. It's bad design, certainly, but it's not why I personally hate them.

I hate Marines because my army has been languishing for a literal decade with something like 1/3 of its units and options being deleted outright. So now that GW have the capacity to produce models at an incredible pace, what do we see? Two sodding years of Marine releases. Because clearly the army with the most kits and most up-to-date kits in the entire game needed vastly more kits injected into it.

But that was in 8th, right? They were just getting all the Marine stuff out of the way. Clearly 9th will be different.

So what did we get?

Marines, Marines, Marines, Marines, Marines, Marines, Marines...

Well, maybe the codices will-

Marines, Marines, Marines, Marines, Marines, Marines, Marines...

Karol wrote:

Which was maybe true in sports till MKOL decided that it is okey for NBA professional players to play in the olympics. So often NBA dreams team very much play vs teams made out of people in collage age.

Not equivalent at all. Especially, consider that there are college-aged NBA players, as well.

Tyel wrote:
By contrast, while I think Blightlords will be very solid, if you were to compare them to say White Scars Bladeguard I'm not sure you'd come away thinking they are madly out of whack. They are tougher and have better shooting - but the Bladeguard have more and better attacks, aside from the probably obligatory flail guy. The Bladeguard are also quite a bit faster due to advance and charge, and more flexible with fall back and charge. (Other buffs are available.)

A flail Blight Lord does 2.7 to a BG. A WS BG does 1.1 to a BL and is probable the only way a BG could outperform a basic BL. This doesn't even consider contagions. They're ridiculously solid and with the addition of heavies, deepstrike, etc means they'll outclass BG. Fortunately 10 of the buggers will be 1/4 of an army, but I'd bet 3x5 on the regular.

I do like that the antithesis of Death Guard - Thousand Sons - are probably the ones capable of more easily tackling that unit...well, maybe not at the moment.

They used to get hate just for being the poster boys. They got lots of release windows because of the different chapters but there was usually some time between hearing of them. They also weren't always OP in any way.

The hate has grown these days because they have a huge number of current releases over 8th and into 9th while some armies saw almost nothing, or nothing at all new released for them.That leads some people to dislike them.

For the most part they don't lose things, though there are exceptions. Most other armies get done over much worse losing whole sections for units and characters without any replacement in sight or imagined. ( Look at some xeno books for this )

As well, in 8th and even now they carry some really OP builds that sometimes get toned down ( Iron hands ) or just came out and eventually get touched on a little eventually ( eradicators )

It used to be one thing, or another but lately it's been a whole bunch of things leading to the hate. It's easy to just say they are being unfairly trashed on but GW do seem to go out of their way to drown you in loyalist marines wether you love it or not.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
By contrast, while I think Blightlords will be very solid, if you were to compare them to say White Scars Bladeguard I'm not sure you'd come away thinking they are madly out of whack. They are tougher and have better shooting - but the Bladeguard have more and better attacks, aside from the probably obligatory flail guy. The Bladeguard are also quite a bit faster due to advance and charge, and more flexible with fall back and charge. (Other buffs are available.)

A flail Blight Lord does 2.7 to a BG. A WS BG does 1.1 to a BL and is probable the only way a BG could outperform a basic BL. This doesn't even consider contagions. They're ridiculously solid and with the addition of heavies, deepstrike, etc means they'll outclass BG. Fortunately 10 of the buggers will be 1/4 of an army, but I'd bet 3x5 on the regular.

I do like that the antithesis of Death Guard - Thousand Sons - are probably the ones capable of more easily tackling that unit...well, maybe not at the moment.

Let’s not foget that Bladeguard are actually one of marines best unit, unlike something like eradicators. I also believe deathshroud are better than blightlords.

Others have already made my points for me, but because I like reading my own text...

I don't hate marines. I want them to get support. I want their players to enjoy playing them. BUT the sheer volume of releases marines get (especially lately) is very annoying.

Look at how many primaris lieutenants there are. Remember that primaris have only been a thing for a few years. Now look at how many phoenix lord models are still finecast versions of their 2nd edition sculpts. Look at how many marine kits have come out in the last two years, and then look at how many aspect warriors are finecast versions of sculpts that are over a decade old. Look at how many marine characters have come out in the last two years, and then realize that drukhari HQs haven't been allowed to take a bike or jump pack (equivalent) option since 5th edition.

And now marines are quite powerful, and those of us who primarily play non-marine armies are eager to get new rules that put us on an even playing field, but the book releases are just marine subfaction after marine subfaction. Even the Deathguard book is mildly annoying; even the chaos releases are just another style of astartes.

And I get that marine players are eager for their specific chapter to gets its second wound or its unique rules or whatever, but the relative overlap between the various chapters can feel kind of superfluous to the rest of us. I neither want nor need a unique codex for every craftworld, kabal, or sept I play, but apparently marines do need that for some reason. So this ongoing barrage of marine books feels like a fresh annoyance caused by GW's past overexposure of marine books.

I wish marine players well. I want marine armies to feel awesome to play. I just don't want every other army to be left languishing because of the raw amount of support marines get.

Karol wrote:

Which was maybe true in sports till MKOL decided that it is okey for NBA professional players to play in the olympics. So often NBA dreams team very much play vs teams made out of people in collage age.

Not true at all. All basketball olympic teams are selections of professional players, not kids who play in colleges. Actually there are lots of NBA players in the olympic games who aren't american and therefore play for different teams than the USA.

SM have been quite strong since 8th launched. Yes, I know that their index army wasn't hellishly OP. Nor were they the 100% curb-stomp-everyone-with-casual-lists army with their first codex. But their Index army was still one of the strongest (girly-man tank blob), and with their codex they were still quite competitive (after a few balance tweaks) and over-all stronger than many other armies in the casual scene.

And then we got 2.0, followed by 9th 1.0, and everyone knows how that went.

But beyond that? Marines just get so many fething releases. And I get it, they're the poster-boy. They're going to get more stuff and that's fine, I don't think anyone is asking for an army like Genestealer Cults to get as many yearly releases as SM, or for SM to go several years without any releases so we can pump all of our attention into the Ork line.

However there is absolutely a middle ground. Take, for example, that Tyranids didn't get a single release across all of 8th. They got a codex, a Pyschic Awakening feature, and (I think) a terrain piece. No characters, no units, no nothing. Mean while Space Marines have gotten a new unit basically every month. Their new codex was released back in September 2020, and they're still getting a new kit every month into 2021.

This results in fatigue as SM releases, at least in my case. It makes people wonder: Why should they bother playing their xenos armies, factions with near zero release support and incredibly weak rolls, just so shmuck SM players can show up with whatever hodge-podge of units they want and beat the snot out of even competitively designed other factions? Why give a crap about what their army does well when SM can do that faction's "thing" just as well, if not better, while still having every other faction's unique strength at the same time?

Marines have a stranglehold on the release schedule. They wipe the floor with most other factions without breaking a sweat. They're also masters of every aspect of the game, with units that fulfill the same purpose as high-cost specialists in other armies - and often do so cheaper with none of the weaknesses. So, in general, it really feels like there is no point to playing 40k unless you're playing marines.

There's a pretty 'simple' way to solve that:

1. stop releasing new stuff for Marines all the time.
2. give all other major armies the same number of options than Marines have. To those that doesn't make too much sense doing that (like Custodes), make their options really good to withstand firepower or to easily replace losses.

Sadly, neither will happen, so Marines will continue getting hated on.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
People complain less about DG because, unlike marines, theyre not played by 50% of the playerbase so the odds of playing against them are lower.

so... in other words space marines receive more hate then other factions because they're popular.

BrianDavion wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
People complain less about DG because, unlike marines, theyre not played by 50% of the playerbase so the odds of playing against them are lower.

so... in other words space marines receive more hate then other factions because they're popular.

No, because they are popular, therefore constantly supported and atm easy to handle on top of beeing on the higher end of performance, especially in a casual / semi casual environment, they are more oppressive and get thrown more hate at, due to everyone beeing familiar with them, then let's say harlequins or daemons which might be technically even more annoying but practically so rarely seen that the average player has a rather murky understanding of them.

BrianDavion wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
People complain less about DG because, unlike marines, theyre not played by 50% of the playerbase so the odds of playing against them are lower.

so... in other words space marines receive more hate then other factions because they're popular.

Yes.

Obviously.

I don't understand why this is a point of hypocrisy. Obviously the amount you personally will care about a particular broken list or faction is directly proportional to the amount you have to play against it.

In my play group of in normal times 50+ people, we have

-1 person who plays Craftworld Eldar
-2 people who play Tau
-Nobody who plays Knights
-1 person who plays Daemons of any kind
-Nobody who plays harlequins
-Nobody who plays Tyranids
-over 30 players who play some kind of space marines.


Through the entire Castellan/imperial soup meta, not a single person owned a Castellan. Through the entire Ynnari meta, not a single person played Ynnari. Through the Flyrant meta, nobody played tyranids. When the space marine meta hit, over half the club was playing marines and suddenly had crushingly competitive lists.

My army is pretty much models that are about as old as I am and there are little to no options that aren't reaching around almost 20+ years if not already able to drink.

BrianDavion wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:
People complain less about DG because, unlike marines, theyre not played by 50% of the playerbase so the odds of playing against them are lower.



so... in other words space marines receive more hate then other factions because they're popular.

I think popularity exacerbates the issue certainly. It's like a force multiplier on top of an already bloated pile of annoyances. That said, you have to be kind of daft to think it's JUST how popular they are.

I love how multiple people in the thread have listed multiple reasons for why people dislike them and it still comes down to "Hurr Durr - popular" ...

This type of answer is another one of the reasons people get annoyed. Too many marine players who literally can't see how much better their stuff is in almost every single way, from nearly every single angle and just think anyone who is annoyed is a "hater". I'm a marine player, and I am saying "yeah - it's just a bit much atm". Why is that so hard? lol

My army is pretty much models that are about as old as I am and there are little to no options that aren't reaching around almost 20+ years if not already able to drink.

And I bet you just jump for joy as you watch the marines get their 399th Primaris Lt, or their 9th Terminator variant, or half a dozen new tanks that are all -slightly different- to each other or things they already had ...

I also bet this release schedule would annoy you even if marines were unpopular.

And watch as options that had been there for years are taken away from me and in turn nothing given back besides character models that are limited time only so Ill never be able to get.

Tycho wrote:

were we on the same dakkadakka? Ynnari and eldar flyers were often the source of complaint on here... Heck, people still complain about eldars as if they were still in the scatterbike era.

Scatbike, Seercouncil, Wraithknights ... The wailing and anguish was very loud and very real on here ...

Yeah 7th eddition probably was the most eldar complaining I've ever seen. Then again. Practically none in 8th even though they dominated competitive for about half the edition.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Tycho wrote:

were we on the same dakkadakka? Ynnari and eldar flyers were often the source of complaint on here... Heck, people still complain about eldars as if they were still in the scatterbike era.

Scatbike, Seercouncil, Wraithknights ... The wailing and anguish was very loud and very real on here ...

Yeah 7th eddition probably was the most eldar complaining I've ever seen. Then again. Practically none in 8th even though they dominated competitive for about half the edition.

Ok, so you're doing the exact thing you're constantly being accused of : distorting facts to fit whatever your argument is. People complained plenty about Ynnari and Flyers on here. The difference between them and Marines is that these armies got nerfed quickly and weren't 50% of the metagame so people played against them less.

Sigh ...

So, again, I've listed a handful of reasons outside of "popularity", and even outside of how strong they are, and we have an Eldar player agreeing that at least some of those reasons are why she is annoyed (she's got 20+ year old sculpts in the face of Marines having so many LT variants that are largely unecessary) and for so many people, the response is still "YEAH! Because they're popular!" or "Well I didn't hear all this when Eldar were strong!"

I mean, I know my posts can be long, but is any of this getting through? lol

Tycho wrote:
Sigh ...

So, again, I've listed a handful of reasons outside of "popularity", and even outside of how strong they are, and we have an Eldar player agreeing that at least some of those reasons are why she is annoyed (she's got 20+ year old sculpts in the face of Marines having so many LT variants that are largely unecessary) and for so many people, the response is still "YEAH! Because they're popular!" or "Well I didn't hear all this when Eldar were strong!"

I mean, I know my posts can be long, but is any of this getting through? lol

Guard actually but Eldar are in a similar position as they are and not until late 2019, all of the SoB had a range exceeding the drinking age in the US.

Guard actually by Eldar are in a similar position as they are and not until late 2019, all of the SoB had a range exceeding the drinking age in the US.

Ha! I'm sorry. Whenever I hear 20+ year sculpts my mind just automatically goes to Eldar!

 CEO Kasen wrote:
The reasons are not simply 'cause they're popular,' but quite manifold.

They became OP by virtue of essentially having a 9th edition codex as far back as late 2019, then as 9th approached, spent an agonizing amount of time getting release after release when other factions languish with rules that couldn't sweep kittens off an objective and/or models that are old enough to legally consent.

At present, their top-end is not really OP; optimized tournament lists from other factions can have a good fight with optimized Marine lists, as we see that Marines do not completely dominate tournament tables the way they used to. Their problem is outside tournament play; they have so many good units that more casual Marine lists will, all else being equal, blow most other lists out of the water.

They do get way too much rules attention. A sticking point with me is that the Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Deathwatch all got free full Index updates that were not merely to allow them to be usable, but also introduced entirely new rules to factions, like Dark Angels' Inner Circle. These updates must have been at least some effort, and were or are only going to be valid for a few months, yet they couldn't be bothered to update CSM to 2 wounds with a points bump, damage on Fusion weapons at the same time as Melta weapons, or flamer ranges to 12" for nonstandard flame weapons, and those problems may languish for anywhere between months and years in other armies thanks to GW's antiquated release model.

That Marines are popular is a multiplier to other effects, but their popularity is why they got such focus to begin with - so maybe it's not entirely wrong to say people hate marines because they're popular. They're so popular that it felt as though they were cannibalizing the entire game to fuel their power-armored sales might.

This feeling was not helped by the way they were released, and the whole system of slowly 'leaking' models and rules for Indomitus and the C:SM 9th. Spending months watching the rich get richer by inches is exceedingly tedious, but every week there was another unnecessary tank or unit or HQ; I had to unsub from nearly all 40K Youtube channels just to go a week without tasting my own vomit. I guarantee you if it they had scarcely said a damn thing and just dropped Indomitus in our laps I would be substantially less irritated with Marines as I am/was.

It is getting better now. As long as the lens remains off Marines and codexes at similar power levels continue to be released, things will heal, but that's going to take time, and some restraint on GW's part.

This 100%. The release schedule makes it feel like Marines are cannibalising other factions at this point. Even the Necrons, that got released alongside the Marines feel like they're already forgotten for more Space Marine goodness. Death Guard will be no different.

Not Online!!! wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
People complain less about DG because, unlike marines, theyre not played by 50% of the playerbase so the odds of playing against them are lower.

so... in other words space marines receive more hate then other factions because they're popular.

No, because they are popular, therefore constantly supported and atm easy to handle on top of beeing on the higher end of performance, especially in a casual / semi casual environment, they are more oppressive and get thrown more hate at, due to everyone beeing familiar with them, then let's say harlequins or daemons which might be technically even more annoying but practically so rarely seen that the average player has a rather murky understanding of them.

The New Years Brawl GT had 8 Necrons and 8 Marines out of 30. Top 5 was Harlies, Necrons, Necrons, Custodes, Orks.

Having actually taken the dive into Necrons myself I'm going to go out on a limb and say that their book is way more fun than marines. At first glance almost none of the units are duds ( and if they are it is debatable ) and everything seems to have a place. It literally want to buy 5 boxes of stuff, but I can't because everything is sold out. And DG looks even more interesting than Necrons just on design alone.

Marines haven't been king for a bit now, but posts disproportionately attack them or attack people who they think are defending marines. It wasn't that long ago that people complained about how Xenos were the "NPC" and yet the above top 5 is almost nothing but Xenos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Darsath wrote:

This 100%. The release schedule makes it feel like Marines are cannibalising other factions at this point. Even the Necrons, that got released alongside the Marines feel like they're already forgotten for more Space Marine goodness. Death Guard will be no different.

What does DG need? A couple models to cover HQs.
What Necron kits need a redo? C'Tan models, Tesseract, and Obelisk. All of these are huge kits and pushing out that many high price kits would be a terrible idea.

Or a great idea? GW has shown again and again that suckers buy whatever they put out. If they can even put out a similar scaled kit with a 30-50% price increase and suckers eat it up.

GW just doesn't.

Having actually taken the dive into Necrons myself I'm going to go out on a limb and say that their book is way more fun than marines. At first glance almost none of the units are duds ( and if they are it is debatable ) and everything seems to have a place. It literally want to buy 5 boxes of stuff, but I can't because everything is sold out. And DG looks even more interesting than Necrons just on design alone.

Oh there are definitely duds, and way too much redundancy, but it's got some nifty tricks. They are definitely in a position to really beat up armies that haven't received a codex yet.

What does DG need? A couple models to cover HQs.

And some more heavy support options, and access to Greater Possessed and a few other things form CSM proper that it makes no sense for them to not have. That said, admittedly, they are in good shape and most of the things I list don't require actual new models. Just a ported entry. They are generally in pretty good shape.

That said, all of this ignores what I think is the single biggest issue. The constant marine train we've been riding. For whatever reason, when that gets brought up, people seem to want to side step it. IDK why.