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Made in fi
Ye Lord of The End Times (and a good guy)





 Eldarsif wrote:
I feel the argument from perception is relevant as the frequent and large releases has created a surge in Space Marine players. You can't go to a tournament or friendly shindig without a significant majority of the players being Space Marines. Nobody cares if there are chapter differences when a majority of the units behave similarly. Space Marines, for all intents and purposes, have become the faceless NPC that one must grind through for the boss battles, those being non-Marine armies.


Yeh. I barely have interest going to play at FLGS these days unless I can pre-arrange game against something OTHER than marines.

Marines every game gets old. One can predict how game goes pretty easily and it's rather repetive.

2021 painted/bought: 497/449 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





tneva82 wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
I feel the argument from perception is relevant as the frequent and large releases has created a surge in Space Marine players. You can't go to a tournament or friendly shindig without a significant majority of the players being Space Marines. Nobody cares if there are chapter differences when a majority of the units behave similarly. Space Marines, for all intents and purposes, have become the faceless NPC that one must grind through for the boss battles, those being non-Marine armies.


Yeh. I barely have interest going to play at FLGS these days unless I can pre-arrange game against something OTHER than marines.

Marines every game gets old. One can predict how game goes pretty easily and it's rather repetive.


Which is sad that isn't gotten to that point. No one should feel like their faction is just boring to play against. However this isn't a problem that will correct itself until it gets a sales impact so GW decide to diversify out the offerings more than they do currently. Which I'm sure someone will come by and say " It isn't that bad " but really it is. I mean I love marines and honestly I feel bad even trying to get in games with them as I don't want to bore people with yet another marine list, even if I run mine different than others.
   
Made in gb
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




Newcastle

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
No that you mentioned they haven't received any new models, they will be receiving a full re-vamp of the Reivers next week.....Thanks!

Not going to lie, I think this is pretty simple. GW is going to flood the market with the faction that people buy and play. The data shows the clear majority of players play some form of Astartes force, either due to product upselling or forcing gak onto customers, doesn't matter. The vast majority of players both common and elite, play power armor. I would honestly love to know where the paints rank in purchases? Obviously Nuln oil and the metal paints would be near the top?


The common rebuttal: What if one of the other factions received the model and lore support SM get? Imagine orks but with the same support. Boyz getting a new kit every two editions. Plastic HQ models coming out every two months. Individual codexes for Goffs, Snakebites, Bad Moons etc. complete with their own set of named characters, unique units (with kits of course) and plenty of strats and distinct rules. A new codex coming out first or second every edition, and sometimes two codexes in one edition. The starter set always containing orks, and orks featured in most Black Library books.

Admittedly marines are a cool concept that would likely always be popular even if they were a niche faction in the game, but some of their success is probably because they're pushed so much.

Hydra Dominatus 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Models and lore help - but really its about power.

The woes of 2018's creep on Marines can be overblown (last 8 LVO says hi) - but they did grow weaker, perhaps especially in more casual player's hands. Very unscientific, but I'd say they probably reached a low of around 10-15% of armies played.

Then Marines 2.0 came out, and suddenly its back to 30-50% of the playerbase. Because they are the best faction by a distance and you can easily crush your friends.

The real double standard is that GW seemingly always get twitchy if Marines are seen as "bad". Insert "but I didn't like spamming free razorbacks" - but you could. And people did. Whereas historically other factions have been abandoned for years.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





yukishiro1 wrote:
The miracle dice make retributors super strong too, it's not just the strat. The big weakness of low volume, high quality shots is that the end output is very RNGy, and Sisters have a way to get rid of the RNG when they need to do so most. That's worth a ton on something like a melta shot.


It's true, and I love my Miracle dice. Yes, I can make ONE of my shots an auto 6 on damage, but if I'm going point for point with Erads, I can't afford a Simulacrum, so I can only do it once per shooting phase and if I do, the only other units that can do AoF that phase are the units who do have simulacra. That's not as much of an advantage as toughness +2 and wounds +4 which is what you get for Erads. The retributor potential to split fire and not lose shots goes some small distance toward closing the gap, and the fact that I can afford one armorium cherub helps too.

They're close, but erads are still better without the strat. Not so much better that I think rets are terrible- obviously they aren't- especially since I pay the extra points to get the 4rth MM and the second Cherub and the simulacrum. If I do that, I get two extra shots (all the time) with an additional once per game shot and I can do 2 AoF for damage, plus I pick up one extra T3 wound. For the price, a Marine would get an extra shot, 2 on focus fire, so that's a wash; they get no extra one use goodies, but they get 3 more T5 wounds.

The other thing to consider is that the rets get weaker every wound; Marines only get weaker every 3.
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




yukishiro1 wrote:
SoB, DA, DG, Harlies and Chaos Soup are all top-tier. Harlies are no longer number two, that's out of date at this point; if anything they are slipping out of the top tier because they have trouble against DG and DA. You could definitely argue SoB are the top faction, but DA are very much up there too, and it's a much more recent release, that continues to do better and better as people realize that the RW part of the army is at least as good, probably better than the DW part.

I'm not saying DA conclusively are the best faction, but they're firmly in the range where you can make an argument for them.

"Space marines aren't top tier except for the kind that are absolutely top tier and doing better and better since their recent release." Well...yeah?


Harlies are absolutely number 2. Some still say number 1. Where did you hear this?

DA are arguably doing well because the meta hasn't 'solved' them and hasn't had time too. We need a bit more time to figure it out. Hence why their position is tenuous.

'Space marines aren't top tier* (there is a chance DA can hang with the big boys but we're still collecting data).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/08 13:02:40


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Voss wrote:

I think you need a broader focus, beyond the limited problems brought by two specific units, and rejoin the general conversation about the strength and ease of the codex as a whole (with answers to everything) and roughly four codexes worth of army selections in terms of models and roughly ten in rules. Having more design space is simply more problematic to balance, grants more options to the marine player, and weirdly even the basic secondary objectives for the edition shy away from rewarding opponents for playing against marines.

Your hyper focus on eradicates and outriders as the only problems you're aware of is exactly why I dismissed 'perception.' And no, imbalance is not just 'this is too strong.' It's also very much that other <factions> lack tools and survivability for the new environment.


It goes well beyond that - I'm just too lazy to enumerate all of it. "Hordes are dead". Some also thought melee wouldn't be good, because of the fallback rules, but experience in the missions and table size changed that.

People put up meltas as their own boogeyman, but DG, Daemons, Harlies, Orks, Custodes still win and don't bring that weapon to the table. Does MM make it easier to solve some problems? Sure, but it isn't singlehandedly winning them games - especially not in the limited numbers they come in.

Marines certainly are an easier book to play and they'll stay that way, because they will be the banner faction forever, but at higher levels of play that simplicity can falter.

   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Daedalus81 wrote:
Voss wrote:

I think you need a broader focus, beyond the limited problems brought by two specific units, and rejoin the general conversation about the strength and ease of the codex as a whole (with answers to everything) and roughly four codexes worth of army selections in terms of models and roughly ten in rules. Having more design space is simply more problematic to balance, grants more options to the marine player, and weirdly even the basic secondary objectives for the edition shy away from rewarding opponents for playing against marines.

Your hyper focus on eradicates and outriders as the only problems you're aware of is exactly why I dismissed 'perception.' And no, imbalance is not just 'this is too strong.' It's also very much that other <factions> lack tools and survivability for the new environment.


It goes well beyond that - I'm just too lazy to enumerate all of it. "Hordes are dead". Some also thought melee wouldn't be good, because of the fallback rules, but experience in the missions and table size changed that.

People put up meltas as their own boogeyman, but DG, .....Harlies.......


Hordes make up an absolutely tiny portion of what gets played currently. You've got some ork lists (ork lists are split between ghazzy+tide and buggies mostly), some slaanesh daemon lists, some sisters lists arguably and some necron lists arguably, but in general, any truly light infantry unit (and no, I'm not counting T4 4+ RP 10pt necron warriors or T3 3+ ignore AP-1 and -2 SoBs as "Light Infantry" really) is pretty terribad.

The worst armies in 9th ed include GSC, Guard, Tau, Nids, and CWE, and before their codex Drukhari.

"Hordes" - as in, taking your whole army as spammed light infantry with a ton of protections and defensive special rules, might be OK, but if you're just thinking "What is the absolute worst type of unit to slot into any given list" a cheap light infantry unit in 9th is effectively in the same tier as, say, a deep striking melee unit in 5th edition. There were a couple specific builds and combos that made use of them....but in general, pick one out at random, it was probably one of the worst units in the codex it was in.

And uhhhhhhhhhhhh competitive DG lists do seem to have a lot of those blighthaulers....and I seem to recall a looooot of fusion pistols in those competitive harlequin lists...


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yeah, ironically if hordes actually were good, not just a novelty, a lot of the problems with MM spam would go away.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






PenitentJake wrote:
Salt donkey wrote:

-“People don’t mind the power level of marines, they mind the disproportionate amount of releases and amount games they have /show up in.”

While I don’t exactly disagree with this, I have to say what did you expect when started this hobby. Marines being the golden child of 40k has at least been the case since I started playing 14 years ago, and I can’t remember a time where things haven’t been this way.


Second ed was the last edition before Marines really ran away with it. Rogue Trader was warband style gaming to low skirmish level and all model ranges were sparse. It was in second when Marines got Angels books, and one faction became 4. But they still had to grow ranges for other factions so it did feel much more balanced. It's just that once all the armies achieved a reasonable range, everyone except Marines stopped growing. It went on for a while like that, then other ranges actually started shrinking while marines continued to grow.
I think I disagree with that bit. While 2nd Ed did see codex support (well, half codex support for DA and BA), I wouldn't have said that Marines were running away with it. Care was being taken for every codex released, and they all had nice flavor and lots of new models for each faction were released during that edition. Then 3rd was released and introduced Dark Eldar, Tau and Necrons (into a full faction), while Marines got very little (and also lost options). SW, BA and DA were small supplements at the time. 4th ed is, imo when the seeds were planted for what we have now when they released the Adeptus Astartes (is that what they were called?) expansions with extra background and rules for the founding chapters, and Black Library and the Horus Heresy novels were beginning to take hold. Then 5th rolled around and things really started to steamroll with BA, DA, SW and GK all being released as stand alone codexes again, with a bunch of new units getting crammed into them. Imo 5th ed was the official "Marine Bloat" edition in my eyes. They just started exploding.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





the_scotsman wrote:


Hordes make up an absolutely tiny portion of what gets played currently. You've got some ork lists (ork lists are split between ghazzy+tide and buggies mostly), some slaanesh daemon lists, some sisters lists arguably and some necron lists arguably, but in general, any truly light infantry unit (and no, I'm not counting T4 4+ RP 10pt necron warriors or T3 3+ ignore AP-1 and -2 SoBs as "Light Infantry" really) is pretty terribad.

The worst armies in 9th ed include GSC, Guard, Tau, Nids, and CWE, and before their codex Drukhari.

"Hordes" - as in, taking your whole army as spammed light infantry with a ton of protections and defensive special rules, might be OK, but if you're just thinking "What is the absolute worst type of unit to slot into any given list" a cheap light infantry unit in 9th is effectively in the same tier as, say, a deep striking melee unit in 5th edition. There were a couple specific builds and combos that made use of them....but in general, pick one out at random, it was probably one of the worst units in the codex it was in.

And uhhhhhhhhhhhh competitive DG lists do seem to have a lot of those blighthaulers....and I seem to recall a looooot of fusion pistols in those competitive harlequin lists...



I don't think I've seen a single Blighthauler. Fusion is not "multi-melta", but do Harlies work, because of fusion pistols or is it more complicated than that?

To me hordes is not "the entire army is hordes", but "I can safely take a unit(s) of 11+ models and can be effective".

In two recent tournaments ( non-Aussie ) Ork players took 120ish boyz in one list and 50 grots in another. A Nids player had 60 gaunts/gants. You're likely to see fewer horde style lists right now, because the armies that can really lean on them are in need of a redo and not as popular, because of the way people talk about hordes.

   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Daedalus81 wrote:

People put up meltas as their own boogeyman, but DG, Daemons, Harlies, Orks, Custodes still win and don't bring that weapon to the table. Does MM make it easier to solve some problems? Sure, but it isn't singlehandedly winning them games - especially not in the limited numbers they come in.
Didn't we just see a list with like . . . 8-9 attack bikes with MMs in it?

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, ironically if hordes actually were good, not just a novelty, a lot of the problems with MM spam would go away.


1) MM is not spammed. 18 Smasha Guns is spam. 3 MM attack bikes is not.
2) MM would not go away, because there will always be people not taking hordes as is expected in a system where multiple kinds of lists are viable.


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Uh I think you need to look at the typical attack bike build again; it's 3x attack bike squads, not 3x attack bikes - usually 7-9 MM bikes total. Most lists that can take melta spam 3x of whatever their best melta squad is.

And I didn't say MM would "go away," I said "a lot of the problems with MM spam would go away." Please read what's being written. If hordes were a big deal, spamming MM would have a natural counter that would limit people's tendency to do it. People would still take a squad, but taking 3x your best MM unit wouldn't be an obvious choice, and the game might not be so dominated by how you trade your melta squads with your opponent's.

   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Daedalus81 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:


Hordes make up an absolutely tiny portion of what gets played currently. You've got some ork lists (ork lists are split between ghazzy+tide and buggies mostly), some slaanesh daemon lists, some sisters lists arguably and some necron lists arguably, but in general, any truly light infantry unit (and no, I'm not counting T4 4+ RP 10pt necron warriors or T3 3+ ignore AP-1 and -2 SoBs as "Light Infantry" really) is pretty terribad.

The worst armies in 9th ed include GSC, Guard, Tau, Nids, and CWE, and before their codex Drukhari.

"Hordes" - as in, taking your whole army as spammed light infantry with a ton of protections and defensive special rules, might be OK, but if you're just thinking "What is the absolute worst type of unit to slot into any given list" a cheap light infantry unit in 9th is effectively in the same tier as, say, a deep striking melee unit in 5th edition. There were a couple specific builds and combos that made use of them....but in general, pick one out at random, it was probably one of the worst units in the codex it was in.

And uhhhhhhhhhhhh competitive DG lists do seem to have a lot of those blighthaulers....and I seem to recall a looooot of fusion pistols in those competitive harlequin lists...



I don't think I've seen a single Blighthauler. Fusion is not "multi-melta", but do Harlies work, because of fusion pistols or is it more complicated than that?

To me hordes is not "the entire army is hordes", but "I can safely take a unit(s) of 11+ models and can be effective".

In two recent tournaments ( non-Aussie ) Ork players took 120ish boyz in one list and 50 grots in another. A Nids player had 60 gaunts/gants. You're likely to see fewer horde style lists right now, because the armies that can really lean on them are in need of a redo and not as popular, because of the way people talk about hordes.


You said "melta" not "Multi-melta". Harlequins ABSOLUTELY are as competitive as they are riht now because of how their melta pistols combine with the soaring spite subfaction and their newfound defensive abilities from PA.

30" threatrange 19pt melta pistol wielders are absolutely what the meta harlequin setup is relying on right now.

I understand that some lists - notably ork lists and slaanesh daemons - are able to make a skew anti-meta horde setup work right now. Maybe you can do something with Gaunts as well as an antimeta setup. but the play numbers of them being as low as they are proves that the only reason they're finding any success is because of the fact that they're anti-meta. People are spamming MMs and guns to kill MEQs, taking the few efficient light infantry choices left in the game is going to be fairly successful, yes.

The existence of orks and daemonettes does not disprove the fact that, on the whole, 9th edition is supremely punishing to two main types of units:

1) light infantry, due to the insane efficiency of specialised horde clearing elite infantry.
2) mid-cost vehicles, due to the ridiculous amount of extremely effective anti-tank weaponry

Youve got units that are supremely common in the meta that can get an over 100% points return shooting at stuff like guardians, guardsmen, grots, etc and others that can get over 100% points return firing at T7 3+ vehicles, even vehicles like rhinos that are essentially rolling boxes with nothing else.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





yukishiro1 wrote:
Uh I think you need to look at the typical attack bike build again; it's 3x attack bike squads, not 3x attack bikes - usually 7-9 MM bikes total. Most lists that can take melta spam 3x of whatever their best melta squad is.

And I didn't say MM would "go away," I said "a lot of the problems with MM spam would go away." Please read what's being written. If hordes were a big deal, spamming MM would have a natural counter that would limit people's tendency to do it. People would still take a squad, but taking 3x your best MM unit wouldn't be an obvious choice, and the game might not be so dominated by how you trade your melta squads with your opponent's.




I did read what you wrote and it isn't based in the reality of lists out there. No one is taking 9ABs, except perhaps Salamanders, and even then I would bet maxing out is quite rare.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote:
You said "melta" not "Multi-melta". Harlequins ABSOLUTELY are as competitive as they are riht now because of how their melta pistols combine with the soaring spite subfaction and their newfound defensive abilities from PA.


Apologies - I use the term interchangeably, because MM is all we talk about. Harlies have to be able to kill things, but that doesn't make fusion the problem in being able to fight them. Just like people seem to prefer AB over Eradicators - the speed/manouverability is key.

This Halie/CWE list took first on 3/27 and didn't use Soaring Spite:

Spoiler:
++ Spearhead Detachment -3CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [45 PL, 915pts, -3CP] ++

​Craftworld Attribute
. Custom Craftworld: Expert Crafters, Hunters of Ancient Relics


+ HQ +

Farseer Skyrunner [7 PL, 135pts]: 0. Smite, 3. Fortune, 4. Executioner, Shuriken Pistol, Witchblade


+ Heavy Support +

Wraithlord [7 PL, 135pts]: Flamer, Flamer, 2x Starcannon
Wraithlord [7 PL, 135pts]: Flamer, Flamer, 2x Starcannon
Wraithseer [8 PL, 170pts]: 0. Smite, 4. Protect/Jinx, D-cannon
Wraithseer [8 PL, 170pts]: 0. Smite, 5. Quicken/Restrain, D-cannon
Wraithseer [8 PL, 170pts]: 0. Smite, 4. Protect/Jinx, D-cannon


++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Aeldari - Harlequins) [54 PL, 1,073pts, 9CP] ++


Masque Form: The Midnight Sorrow: The Art of Death

+ Stratagems +

Enigmas of the Black Library (1 Relic) [-1CP]

+ HQ +

Shadowseer [6 PL, 115pts, -1CP]: Shield From Harm, Shuriken Pistol, Stratagem: Pivotal Role, Twilight Pathways, Veil of Illusion, Webway Dance

Troupe Master [4 PL, 65pts, -1CP]: Choreographer of War, Darkness' Bite, Harlequin's Blade, Shuriken Pistol, Stratagem: Pivotal Role, The Twilight Fang


+ Troops +

Troupe [5 PL, 109pts]
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Caress
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Caress
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Caress
. Player: Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol
. Player: Harlequin's Blade, Shuriken Pistol

Troupe [5 PL, 109pts]
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Caress
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Caress
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Caress
. Player: Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol
. Player: Harlequin's Blade, Shuriken Pistol

Troupe [5 PL, 109pts]
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Caress
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Caress
. Player: Fusion Pistol, Harlequin's Caress
. Player: Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol
. Player: Harlequin's Blade, Shuriken Pistol

Troupe [5 PL, 94pts]
. Player: Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol
. Player: Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol
. Player: Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol
. Player: Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol
. Player: Harlequin's Blade, Shuriken Pistol



+ Elites +

Death Jester [3 PL, 50pts]: 6: Player of the Twilight, Death is not Enough, Warlord

Solitaire [5 PL, 102pts]: Blitz, Cegorach's Rose



+ Dedicated Transport +

Starweaver [4 PL, 80pts]

Starweaver [4 PL, 80pts]

Starweaver [4 PL, 80pts]

Starweaver [4 PL, 80pts]



I understand that some lists - notably ork lists and slaanesh daemons - are able to make a skew anti-meta horde setup work right now. Maybe you can do something with Gaunts as well as an antimeta setup. but the play numbers of them being as low as they are proves that the only reason they're finding any success is because of the fact that they're anti-meta. People are spamming MMs and guns to kill MEQs, taking the few efficient light infantry choices left in the game is going to be fairly successful, yes.


When the core of the book can support hordes you will see them more. That Boyz list beat DA with 5 MM ABs, a terminator block, BKs, bikes, and the other usual DA assortment. He also soundly beat 4th round DG with two PBCs , Pox, Termies, 2 Fleshmower Drones, Shrouds - how is he anti-meta to this? His one loss was to Tesseract, SK, Warriors, Spyders and Scarabs 48 to 47 - how is he anti-meta here?

1) light infantry, due to the insane efficiency of specialised horde clearing elite infantry.
2) mid-cost vehicles, due to the ridiculous amount of extremely effective anti-tank weaponry


I'll give you that people are scared to use higher cost vehicles, but CK soup is making inroads now, too so you're stuck between enough MM for those or Morty and enough anti-horde for Necrons/Orks/Daemons. Once the knight books release this whole thing could go on its head with people stressing about those and open the door for even more hordes. It's all quite messy, I think.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/08 18:18:31


   
Made in us
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Daedalus81:
 Daedalus81 wrote:

1) MM is not spammed.


Also Daedalus81:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Ezekiel

Bladeguard Ancient, Remembrance ( -1D to one unit )
2x DW Command, 2xLC & TH/SS
2x DW Command, 2xLC & TH/SS
10x Assault Terminators, 6 dual LC, 4 TH/SS, Homer

Talonmaster, Obsec bubble trait
Talonmaster
Chap on Bike

Chief Apothecary

3x MM Attack Bikes <<=====
2x MM Attack Bikes <<=====
2x MM Attack Bikes <<=====

3x3 Bikes, LC Sarge, Dual CS

Fin.

Looks to be less about Inner Circle spam and more about adding obsec and turning off obsec at the right places.

Given few the low amount of psykers in the game at the moment I wonder how it would fair if it can't turn off obsec.


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Uh I think you need to look at the typical attack bike build again; it's 3x attack bike squads, not 3x attack bikes - usually 7-9 MM bikes total. Most lists that can take melta spam 3x of whatever their best melta squad is.

And I didn't say MM would "go away," I said "a lot of the problems with MM spam would go away." Please read what's being written. If hordes were a big deal, spamming MM would have a natural counter that would limit people's tendency to do it. People would still take a squad, but taking 3x your best MM unit wouldn't be an obvious choice, and the game might not be so dominated by how you trade your melta squads with your opponent's.




I did read what you wrote and it isn't based in the reality of lists out there. No one is taking 9ABs, except perhaps Salamanders, and even then I would bet maxing out is quite rare.



...it doesn't look like you did. You read "7-9 MM bikes" as "9 MM bikes," you read "make the problems with melta spam go away" as "make melta go away."

I won't belabor the point further, it's not really important, it's just frustrating when people don't read.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/08 18:38:55


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Daedalus81:
 Daedalus81 wrote:

1) MM is not spammed.


Also Daedalus81:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Ezekiel

Bladeguard Ancient, Remembrance ( -1D to one unit )
2x DW Command, 2xLC & TH/SS
2x DW Command, 2xLC & TH/SS
10x Assault Terminators, 6 dual LC, 4 TH/SS, Homer

Talonmaster, Obsec bubble trait
Talonmaster
Chap on Bike

Chief Apothecary

3x MM Attack Bikes <<=====
2x MM Attack Bikes <<=====
2x MM Attack Bikes <<=====

3x3 Bikes, LC Sarge, Dual CS

Fin.

Looks to be less about Inner Circle spam and more about adding obsec and turning off obsec at the right places.

Given few the low amount of psykers in the game at the moment I wonder how it would fair if it can't turn off obsec.



Hey - you got me. That was an introspective at one winning DA list. So let me walk back - Salamanders, Sisters and DA, because RW has a lot to offer bikes. Where is the rest of the spam?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote:


...it doesn't look like you did. You read "7-9 MM bikes" as "9 MM bikes," you read "make the problems with melta spam go away" as "make melta go away."

I won't belabor the point further, it's not really important, it's just frustrating when people don't read.


That's kind of splitting hairs. In the T'au Tipping tournament of the lists in the top 10 one DA list has 9 AB. A sisters list has zero ( opting for Exorcists ).

If MM is oppressive / prevalent why is it only in one list of a top 10?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/08 18:52:35


   
Made in gb
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran






Honestly, it's probably not worth continuing this argument about melta being spammed or not and whether it is the sole reason some lists are winning, as D3+3 dark lance spam, D3+3 special lascannons and who else knows what is on it's way. Dark Eldar can produce a SCARY amount of dark lances if they want, the same will be for Admech with their special lascannons, all on super mobile platforms.

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Definitely, it's not only going to be melta any more. All anti-tank weapons (except normal lascannons apparently, because lol <reasons> ) seem scheduled for big stat inflation in 9th, to match defensive stat inflation for heavy infantry, though not, again because lol <reasons>, for vehicles.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/08 19:10:12


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Daedalus81:
 Daedalus81 wrote:

1) MM is not spammed.


Also Daedalus81:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Ezekiel

Bladeguard Ancient, Remembrance ( -1D to one unit )
2x DW Command, 2xLC & TH/SS
2x DW Command, 2xLC & TH/SS
10x Assault Terminators, 6 dual LC, 4 TH/SS, Homer

Talonmaster, Obsec bubble trait
Talonmaster
Chap on Bike

Chief Apothecary

3x MM Attack Bikes <<=====
2x MM Attack Bikes <<=====
2x MM Attack Bikes <<=====

3x3 Bikes, LC Sarge, Dual CS

Fin.

Looks to be less about Inner Circle spam and more about adding obsec and turning off obsec at the right places.

Given few the low amount of psykers in the game at the moment I wonder how it would fair if it can't turn off obsec.



Hey - you got me. That was an introspective at one winning DA list. So let me walk back - Salamanders, Sisters and DA, because RW has a lot to offer bikes. Where is the rest of the spam?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote:


...it doesn't look like you did. You read "7-9 MM bikes" as "9 MM bikes," you read "make the problems with melta spam go away" as "make melta go away."

I won't belabor the point further, it's not really important, it's just frustrating when people don't read.


That's kind of splitting hairs. In the T'au Tipping tournament of the lists in the top 10 one DA list has 9 AB. A sisters list has zero ( opting for Exorcists ).

1+1=2 . .. which is more than one.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
If MM is oppressive / prevalent why is it only in one list of a top 10?
Multimeltas, meltas etc. could still be oppressive/prevalent while not making tourney top lists, functioning as a "gatekeeper" capability that precludes other lists from feeling viable because there's a reasonable possibility that massed melta will be part of any tourney or meta.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Fixture of Dakka





Damn you, Insectum.

MM is a part of what you can face, but is no more a gatekeeper than anything else can be in the game when your list leans too much.

I'm sure we'll see small point bumps in the future, but nothing that is going to take them out of the equation.

   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

yukishiro1 wrote:
Definitely, it's not only going to be melta any more. All anti-tank weapons (except normal lascannons apparently, because lol <reasons> ) seem scheduled for big stat inflation in 9th, to match defensive stat inflation for heavy infantry, though not, again because lol <reasons>, for vehicles.

Some vehicles have gotten a durability boost in the new codexes. Necrons got Quantum Shielding, dreadnoughts got Relentless Hatred, and Death Guard daemon engines are still pretty tough, just not as tough as before against AT. Other stuff has been left in the dust though. It's the mid-priced stuff that's hurting. You either need lots of cheap stuff like Ork buggies or something big that can take a hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Damn you, Insectum.

MM is a part of what you can face, but is no more a gatekeeper than anything else can be in the game when your list leans too much.

I'm sure we'll see small point bumps in the future, but nothing that is going to take them out of the equation.

I don't think anyone wants melta out of the equation, just less spammable, especially on fast units that can get into melta range easily.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/08 19:27:16


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Daedalus81 wrote:
Damn you, Insectum.

MM is a part of what you can face, but is no more a gatekeeper than anything else can be in the game when your list leans too much.

I'm sure we'll see small point bumps in the future, but nothing that is going to take them out of the equation.
Right, it's a skew to be sure. But it's a NEW skew and happens to be a skew that Marines are good at . . . In addition to all the other things Marines are good at doing these days. So it's pretty understandable why some folks can feel sour about it.

And from the marine perspective it's just another stir of the churning "new hotness" pot that many are getting tired of.

At least the predictable thing is that the churn will continue and Eradicators will get nerfed like Aggressors did and MMs will go up in price or whatever. Such is the 40k way.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/08 19:32:10


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Angelic Adepta Sororitas





 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Honestly, it's probably not worth continuing this argument about melta being spammed or not and whether it is the sole reason some lists are winning, as D3+3 dark lance spam, D3+3 special lascannons and who else knows what is on it's way. Dark Eldar can produce a SCARY amount of dark lances if they want, the same will be for Admech with their special lascannons, all on super mobile platforms.


though with DE lances (and other heavy weapons) no longer becoming assault on vehicles their mobility is slightly restricted without being able to advance and fire them now

"If you are forced to use your trump card, then the battle is already lost" 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





 warmaster21 wrote:
 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Honestly, it's probably not worth continuing this argument about melta being spammed or not and whether it is the sole reason some lists are winning, as D3+3 dark lance spam, D3+3 special lascannons and who else knows what is on it's way. Dark Eldar can produce a SCARY amount of dark lances if they want, the same will be for Admech with their special lascannons, all on super mobile platforms.


though with DE lances (and other heavy weapons) no longer becoming assault on vehicles their mobility is slightly restricted without being able to advance and fire them now


Regardless, ravagers have fly and high base move and dark lances have good range and amazing damage. I think net gain there.

Think about this (slightly off topic) and laugh: a Myphitic Blight-hauler and a dark lance Ravager are the same points. Lol.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Quasistellar wrote:
Think about this (slightly off topic) and laugh: a Myphitic Blight-hauler and a dark lance Ravager are the same points. Lol.


That seems pretty reasonable to me or at least not wildly off base.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/08 19:53:36


   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Quasistellar wrote:
 warmaster21 wrote:
 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Honestly, it's probably not worth continuing this argument about melta being spammed or not and whether it is the sole reason some lists are winning, as D3+3 dark lance spam, D3+3 special lascannons and who else knows what is on it's way. Dark Eldar can produce a SCARY amount of dark lances if they want, the same will be for Admech with their special lascannons, all on super mobile platforms.


though with DE lances (and other heavy weapons) no longer becoming assault on vehicles their mobility is slightly restricted without being able to advance and fire them now


Regardless, ravagers have fly and high base move and dark lances have good range and amazing damage. I think net gain there.

Think about this (slightly off topic) and laugh: a Myphitic Blight-hauler and a dark lance Ravager are the same points. Lol.
This is why no one is taking a bloody ravager ever.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Daedalus81:
 Daedalus81 wrote:

1) MM is not spammed.


Also Daedalus81:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Ezekiel

Bladeguard Ancient, Remembrance ( -1D to one unit )
2x DW Command, 2xLC & TH/SS
2x DW Command, 2xLC & TH/SS
10x Assault Terminators, 6 dual LC, 4 TH/SS, Homer

Talonmaster, Obsec bubble trait
Talonmaster
Chap on Bike

Chief Apothecary

3x MM Attack Bikes <<=====
2x MM Attack Bikes <<=====
2x MM Attack Bikes <<=====

3x3 Bikes, LC Sarge, Dual CS

Fin.

Looks to be less about Inner Circle spam and more about adding obsec and turning off obsec at the right places.

Given few the low amount of psykers in the game at the moment I wonder how it would fair if it can't turn off obsec.



Hey - you got me. That was an introspective at one winning DA list. So let me walk back - Salamanders, Sisters and DA, because RW has a lot to offer bikes. Where is the rest of the spam?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote:


...it doesn't look like you did. You read "7-9 MM bikes" as "9 MM bikes," you read "make the problems with melta spam go away" as "make melta go away."

I won't belabor the point further, it's not really important, it's just frustrating when people don't read.


That's kind of splitting hairs. In the T'au Tipping tournament of the lists in the top 10 one DA list has 9 AB. A sisters list has zero ( opting for Exorcists ).

If MM is oppressive / prevalent why is it only in one list of a top 10?


Maybe they're encountering it where it matters, I.E. where they actually play?
   
 
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