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Karol wrote:

Oborosen wrote:

For me when it comes to Eldar, it's the Warp Spiders old flicker jump effect, for when they get targeted for a shooting attack. They got to immediately make a 12" move, which I think was also in any direction so long as it took them away from the unit shooting at them.

How did that work? Was it able to make the shoting attack fail if they got out of range or out of LoS?

Yeah, and it was annoying as hell. Worst of all, it happened every time something targeted them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
The catch and kill nature of sweeping advance in 3rd edition. Oh and charging out of transports, and templates. And armor facing values.

Yeah, it meshed really well with models that could instantly pass those sweeping advance rolls. Though they were mostly elites, and none of them save for a few, were terminator variants. Hell, Necrons could even give their units crusader a while back through their over lord.

I miss vehicle facings/armor value- they made vehicle placement a thought process rather than just plunking them down on the table. It also made you very aware of where enemy heavy weapons were since you didn't want them behind you.

I really miss the split second that you were allowed to have cult terminators. I had a unit of noise termies complete with blast masters, sonic blasters and doom sirens.

I miss the days when every model in CC with a vehicle could plant a grenade on it.

I miss Blinding effects, Gas and Toxins, and smokescreen/Blind grenades that truly blocked LOS.

I miss the dizzying array of grenades that were available when I first started. A couple have been mentioned already (vortex, smoke) but also blind, gas, sleep... and if you had auto-senses (SMs) you were immune to flash, respirator you were immune to gas, etc. They didn’t come up a ton but were fun and great for scenarios without having to homebrew.

I also generally miss the more complex nature of the game in earlier editions. I understand and appreciate taking out some of the stuff that really bogged things down unnecessarily, but I feel like it’s gone way too far, to the point of “dumbing down”. Give me a few tables to roll on and cross reference, damn it!

 Insectum7 wrote:

 posermcbogus wrote:
I haven't been able to track the exact wording down online, and my old copy of Vraks is back in the UK, but maybe the rules I've loved most dearly were the ones for the R&H Ordinance Tyrant.

For those not in the know, the Ordinance Tyrant could call artillery strikes in on his own units, I think without having to roll for scatter? He was the only unit in the game who could target his own troops, and it was brilliantly merciless.
This meant that you could run absolute worthless chod infantry tarpits up the board, assault with them, and then call a barrage down on top of both your own men, and whoever they were fighting.

Monstrously cruel, hopelessly bleak, and opportunistically violent, for me, these rules were a perfect meshing of fluff and gameplay, and it made me absolutely determined to buy into the army. Was gutted when GW scrapped them, as I'd been planning to butcher a Creed mini, pop a respirator on his face, and replace his cigar hand with a withered-looking plaguebearer hand, and make him rain hate on foe and friend alike.

That's awesome! I had no idea that was a thing.

Yes it was a thing, it was thematically really fitting aswell but it was a 7th edition thing....
And got abused to all hell and back: You combined the Vraks supplement (7th edition one), which limited some normal R&H options, went nurgle, took the purge formation (yes from the purge warband), which made pieplate weaponry leave dangerous terrain for a turn. Did we also mention that the ordinance tyrant made Artillery pieces Troops (smaller batteries like the heavy mortar or thudd/ quad gun) and Elites (for the big nasty things). Generally if you played that competetively you'd abuse access to plague zombies with a 4+++ troopslot arty for backfield since you could double stack up on them since you still could use the Heavy support slots and got more access to HS slots aswell because you'd use Vraks which got a modification on the FOC...

So it was simultaniously great and absolute nonsense.

Generally though, that was an issue with it being 7th edition, and formation shareing since R&H counted as CSM for access to allies etc.

That being said, R&H core rules (IA 13) overall were a lot of fun, and i dare say, except this exemple above with the worst edition to day, one of the better balanced lists and factions.
Further than that, they were customizable to your imagination. Probably one of the conceptually and overall balanced best interpretations a faction ever had in 40k.

Nowadays though, legends, nothing remains of that charm and customizability anymore.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Although overall I'm a fan of 8th and 9th edition I really liked the flamer template.

I do miss templates. Flamers lost so much of their flavor. :(

Vehicles going out of control was fun.

- Leaving wrecked vehicles on the table.

- A huge variety of environmental effects actually having a stat value proportional to their effect. Doesn't matter if it's a vehicle explosion, psychic power, rending effect or toxic gas, GW seem content to just give them the generic, boring "do a Mortal Wound".

- The armoury each army got access to. Some of it was useful, some were just less tactical, fluffy choices which I enjoyed. They've tried to bring it back a little with Special-Issue Wargear but that's only for Marines, and also just still rather boring; oh this item give me -1 to hit. Not bad but just so boring.

vehicles being vehicles rather than just wound pinatas

Shameless plug in 3 ... 2 .. 1 ...

There has never been a better time to try ProHammer than right now.

All this cool stuff everyone is mentioning? You can have it all back. With a lot of games stores not doing normal in-person gaming still, many of us are pushed back into garage hammer anyway - which is a perfect opportunity to give ProHammer a shot.

Scanning through the favored old rules in the thread so far, and how they line up with ProHammer....

Instant Death ... check (although slightly tweaked to do D3 wounds)
Vehicle damage charts ... check
Ld test to shoot at not-closest ... sort check (ProHammer uses declared fire and has screening rules)
Madboyz ... check ... I just played a game using the 3rd ed Feral Ork madboyz
Tyranid biomorphs ... check (use older codex)
Flamer templates ... check
Shooting into close combat ... check (added by ProHammer)
Difficult terrain random move distance ... check (with some logical adjustments to how it works)
Indirect fire ... sorta check (doesn't require guessing the range, but it scatters)
Ordinance weapons ... check
Initiative stat ... check
Wargear options ... check
Scatter dice ... check
Minor psychic powers ... check (from codexes)
Characters on bikes ... check
Blast weapons ... check
Falling back from failed morale tests ... check
Overwatch ... check (2nd edition style)
Vehicle facing ... check
Larger tables ... check
Sweeping advances ... check (but slightly toned down from their peak)
Charging out of transports .. check (but you lose charge bonus unless open-topped or assault vehicle)
USRs... check
Global psychic powers ... check
WS vs WS in melee ... check
Actual morale tests ... check
Vehicle wrecks remaining (or turning into craters!) ... check
Randomized deep strike ... check (although it's been tweaked in a creative and slightly fairer way)
Flyer rules ... check
Grenade attacks vs vehicles in CC ... check
Grenades in general ... check
Codex armories ... check

Without Number and Psychology, particularly panic. But stupidity and fear/terror was nice. I think 7th would have benefitted from it being an active part of the game, as the whole go-to-ground as an option was cool.

Nurglitch wrote:
Without Number and Psychology, particularly panic. But stupidity and fear/terror was nice. I think 7th would have benefitted from it being an active part of the game, as the whole go-to-ground as an option was cool.

Yes the removal of psychology rules and break tests in both 40k and fantasy/AoS has been a detriment to both for me. I wonder if this Old World project going on will reintroduce them.

Another vote for blast templates. Yeah, it was fuzzier, but having a direct representation of a massive explosion scatter onto a fracas had an impact to it that you just do not get with the blander abstraction of dice rolling a high number of shots, to say nothing of the hilarity potential of accidentally shelling your own troops.

I miss Jump shoot jump a lot, I also miss USRs vehicle facings and templates

-I'll throw another bone to IG platoons, RIP.
-Templates... doesn't feel the same without them and I liked the potential to hit multiple units, even unintentionally.
-Wrecked vehicles staying on the field. I still do this with house rules unless the vehicle outright explodes.

Rules that I miss:
-Being able to take named characters in your army without worrying about sub-faction (eg, Calgar not being limited to an Ultramarines detachment only). Takes away a lot of possibilities, doesn't let you do a counts-as approach and forces GW to make sub-factions with special characters weaker in order to compensate for their advantages. Oh and it doesn't help that generic HQs have become far less flavourful too.
-Tank shock & Death of Glory. Probably best that this is gone, but I used to love trolling people who forgot that this was a thing as my Rhinos suddenly became the deadliest unit on the board. I had one Rhino tank shock 500pts worth of minis in one turn because they didn't think it would be a threat and didn't bother to shoot it.

Some faction-specific nostalgia:
-Tyranid mutations in 3rd ed. I get why they're gone, but man they gave you a lot of cool flexibility that has never been replicated.
-Lone Wolves! Why are these guys gone, they're so damn cool! I get that it doesn't make a lot of sense for a depressed Space Wolf to suddenly have more wounds and FNP, but they were a lot of fun and I loved how you had to try to get them killed or risk losing VPs.
-Iron Priest Thunderwolves. I have 2 of these guys converted and they look awesome, now I have to run them as generic TWC or a Wolf Lord or something.
-Space Wolves being able to take Leman Russ tanks. Not because our variant was any good, mind you, but it was flavourful.
-Inquisition being a legitimate option. Now they're basically just a supplemental HQ choice with a few agents that will never see play because they're not worth all the opportunity costs of running an additional detachment.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
-Inquisition being a legitimate option. Now they're basically just a supplemental HQ choice with a few agents that will never see play because they're not worth all the opportunity costs of running an additional detachment.

It's weird seeing people say that they miss Inquisition as a faction, I missed that phase entirely. Back in the way back when they were pretty much like the Assassins, they were rare additions to an Imperial force and were solo agents. I converted one out of Fabius Bile - I spent hours filing down his coat to removed the stitches holding the patches of skin together (and the occasional face!). I gave him a combi-bolter (plasma one from a Dark Angels model) and a power sword. Wish I still had him.

 Oborosen wrote:

The one that really got a laugh out of me, and to that point made me wonder just what GW was thinking at the time. Was the *infinite range* rule for some wargear/weapons.

Now this may not seem like much to some of you, but some of the older players like myself. May have memories of using this rule to play some rather funny shenanigans against the enemy. One of my favorites being the fact that most shops that ran organized play, would allow you to use this rule on another table's army. FULL STOP.
In you could see another game going on at another table, then there was very little stopping you from launching your vortex missiles onto their board, and into their troop formations.

In my nearly 15 years of playing I had never seen this happen, personally I only saw this referenced on 1d4chan. Something not to be taken seriously. How would you feel if someone ruined your game by dropping a random deathstrike missile on you?

If we're talking about old rules. Sometimes I do miss templates. They just seemed to do more damage than the new D6 system. Even the new Blast rule hasn't really fixed this. I also remember it being more accurate than a leman russes current BS4+.

Armour values are another thing I miss. My leman russ tanks actually felt durable with AV14 and you felt the difference of a melta gun getting within half range or if an enemy charged you. Now they just seem to be protected by wet paper.

The facing arcs did lead to a lot of arguments though.

The Codex: Witchhunters Acts of Faith rules were baller. Not that I dislike Miracle Dice, but those were some hardcore miracles compared to the current guaranteed roll.

Jarms48 wrote:


In my nearly 15 years of playing I had never seen this happen, personally I only saw this referenced on 1d4chan. Something not to be taken seriously. How would you feel if someone ruined your game by dropping a random deathstrike missile on you?.

Under the right circumstances, this'd be hilarious. If I was unquestionably steamrolling and someone on another table said they wanted to Deathstrike me in the face to even out the game, I'd be totally cool with it.

Better a close game than a steamrolling on either side of the table.

Scatter, Vehicle facing, templates, intitiative WS v WS.

And.. of course:
Random Effect Tables!

Envioromental, vehicle damage.. whatever!
Just gimme those, random effect tables doing random things.

The guy on P1 said it right. Its all to sanatised and predictable math blob v math blob..

ID from 2x strength - IMO a better use and representation of the wounds mechanic than damage vs. wounds.

3e-7e Armor Save Rules - This made bringing the right weapon on the right target feel decisive compared to the wrong weapon [a battle cannon would paste an entire squad of Marines or Sisters, while a Heavy Bolter wound just bounce off. Nowadays, they basically feel and do the same thing.]

5e Vehicle Rules - Much more satisfying and decisive feeling than the spongy hitpoints. Also, it made a meaningful distinction between antitank weapons, which fired one big shot, and rapid-firing weapons for targeting heavy infantry, which usually couldn't engage vehicles very successfully due to S<8.

I liked the old morale rules. It is a shame they very rarely mattered because just like today 90% of the units in the game outright ignored them or at least didn't care about the most important aspects (sweeping advance for example).
It's the one aspect were I think they simplified too much in 8th, and so far the one additional step in 9th doesn't make morale anymore interesting, it just means morale matters even less. And of the Codizes we've seen most ignore the new mechanic of attrition making it seem dead on arrival.
Maybe at some point they come out with interesting morale rules again, I wouldn't mind if they were faction specific for Guard, Tyranids, Orks and Tau. All the other factions are millenia old badasses or robots that don't really care

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
...All the other factions are millenia old badasses or robots that don't really care...

And therein lies the issue - multiple factions have solid justifications for ignoring some or all of any morale rules GW puts out, and in order to keep up the rest of the factions end up almost needing (certainly wanting) to have their own workarounds, so even they don't always have to use the rules, and that point why bother writing them?

All-time favourite is the rules for the 2e Ork Battlewagon. The transport capacity was "as many models as you could fit onto it". Any models that fell off in play had actually fallen off, and took damage.

- JSJ - gimme my mobile shooty combined arms army back!

I fondly remember tactics that were considered 'cheese' at the time but were actual tactics, like Fish of Fury. You want faction differences to matter? There is a perfect example.

I loved the Hop Splatt for the Orks, I remember a game where it just kept going through my friends marine army and then came back to do almost as much damage to me.

The Rogue Trader cyclone missile launcher catastrophic launch chart



Was triggered by a roll of 11 or 12 on 2D6 if the Terminator was hit by enemy fire.

Jarms48 wrote:

In my nearly 15 years of playing I had never seen this happen, personally I only saw this referenced on 1d4chan. Something not to be taken seriously. How would you feel if someone ruined your game by dropping a random deathstrike missile on you?

If we're talking about old rules. Sometimes I do miss templates. They just seemed to do more damage than the new D6 system. Even the new Blast rule hasn't really fixed this. I also remember it being more accurate than a leman russes current BS4+.

Armour values are another thing I miss. My leman russ tanks actually felt durable with AV14 and you felt the difference of a melta gun getting within half range or if an enemy charged you. Now they just seem to be protected by wet paper.

The facing arcs did lead to a lot of arguments though.

Yeah, I can understand that you didn't run across it. I think it's mainly because most people just never thought about it as being a legitimate option in play. It eventually became an escalation rule for the two shops that I frequented at the time, or something that was viable for team play in coordinated play. (i.e. When one team member took control of a specific terrain piece during their game, and the rules dictated that they could fire the one shot.)
As for me, I've been on the receiving end of this, and yes it did suck. It wasn't a deathstrike though thankfully. So there are some good upsides to some of this in the end.

As for vehicles, I disliked some of the more abused rules for armor, and how some issues with vehicle facing ended up with more arguments than resolutions at the table. Much like Orks with their own special rules that dictated if a round would just fly right through the vehicle. But what got me was some of the walkers, especially the Ironclad dreadnought. As there was apperantly a way to give it 16 Av on the front for one round, and 15Av on both the sides and rear. It has been a long time since then, so I am most likely missing something in translation.

I do still miss bubble wrapping a leman russ with 20 guardsman and feeling like it was for a good reason... I miss playing IG...