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Not Online!!! wrote:
No, because Vigilus got disallowed by GW in it's transition to 9th.
so technically it's not legal anymore which can lead to issues.

Not true.

Specialist Detachments are disallowed in the GT Pack missions (though they would still be legal in other missions).

But other rules from Vigilus are not affected. Renegade traits for example are still good. You can still play Red Corsairs and their relics and such from Vigilus for example. They are not Specialist Detachments.

Units that they could have made available for fallen using the same rules:

Exhaled champion
Sorcerer in terminator armour
Terminators
Bikers
Chaos vindicator
Chaos predator
Chaos land raider
Chosen, although I have just notice that the data sheet for chosen is basically the same as fallen

Not Online!!! wrote:
No, because Vigilus got disallowed by GW in it's transition to 9th.
so technically it's not legal anymore which can lead to issues.

BTW where's the official word nothing in vigilus can¨t be used? Matched play has specific rule about the special detachments but that leaves those still valid for non-matched play and were fallen even special detachments like dread waagh that orks had?

If nobody can give official word(in some faq etc) nothing in vigilus can be used and fallens arent speciically special detachment then abc tells they are legal.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
No, because Vigilus got disallowed by GW in it's transition to 9th.
so technically it's not legal anymore which can lead to issues.

Not true.

Specialist Detachments are disallowed in the GT Pack missions (though they would still be legal in other missions).

But other rules from Vigilus are not affected. Renegade traits for example are still good. You can still play Red Corsairs and their relics and such from Vigilus for example. They are not Specialist Detachments.

Except the fallen access in vigilus was through a specialist detachment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
No, because Vigilus got disallowed by GW in it's transition to 9th.
so technically it's not legal anymore which can lead to issues.

BTW where's the official word nothing in vigilus can¨t be used? Matched play has specific rule about the special detachments but that leaves those still valid for non-matched play and were fallen even special detachments like dread waagh that orks had?

If nobody can give official word(in some faq etc) nothing in vigilus can be used and fallens arent speciically special detachment then abc tells they are legal.

Fallen are , as in the expanded access in vigilus was due to a detachment.
Which got banned for matched play.
Gt2020 i believe.

So, still no way to take a squad of Fallen and a Rhino in a Imperium list eh?

WD hasnt presented anything useful since the "forge the narrative" started to come up. I still read a few at my LFGS and have maintained the same outlook for years now.

I have just resubscribed to the 40K app out of curiosity and it looks like the rules that have been released for 9th are on there.

My understanding was was that the rules for 8th would be there and withdrawn when new 9th Ed content was released. And to get the new content in the app you needed a code from the book you purchased.

But codex space marines is there and codex supplement dark angels. I choose those as I know they have been released for 9th.

In the context of this discussion the vigilus books are in there as well and the fallen rules are not in there under vigilus.

They are in there if you search for them as a specialist detachment stratagem but I can’t figure out which book it’s under.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Fallen are , as in the expanded access in vigilus was due to a detachment.
Which got banned for matched play.
Gt2020 i believe.

Time to add the obligatory "tournament play is not all of matched play" statement.

While I am not surprised they ported over the Vigilus rules into the WD since the Vigilus books are electronic only now, I am surprised they didn't at least give it the 9th Edition errata update for things like the relic. It's like the rule team told them they didn't have time to give any input and just reprint the Vigilus rules without modification.

So lazy, but not super surprising. The thing this tells us most is that the new CSM codex is nowhere near coming out. Expect 2022 at this point.

Here you go:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/798407.page

Took like 30 min to put together. I expect a full time job position from GW will be forthcoming for my genius.

 bullyboy wrote:
I think many of the "WD sucks, you should have known better" crowd are completely forgetting what the team can do with a little effort. Just a few pages for the Harlequins last year completely transformed that army and made it a top tier performer in 9th. This is what they should be striving for, not this bottom tier reprint.

Yes, but GW has a history writing powerful rules for eldar. There is nothing that proves the same for other factions. At best it is random, at worse it just looks as if some factions are just something about no one at the design studio cares much about.

It’s a stupid move from GW, if they had released a decent set of rules and there was uptake from the fan base then they could add a codex fallen or more fallen units to the product range. It’s the perfect way of market testing

mrFickle wrote:
It’s a stupid move from GW, if they had released a decent set of rules and there was uptake from the fan base then they could add a codex fallen or more fallen units to the product range. It’s the perfect way of market testing

It's also just...so very very strange to me how little GW seems to particularly care how badly so many of their "iconic rivalries" actually play out on the tabletop, given how their game can best be described as 'a historical simulation game for a fake history'

Like if you made a star wars game and the rules for Luke and Darth Vader were such that Vader could never conceivably scratch Luke, and Luke would fething obliterate him three times over in a single round of combat, you'd consider that kind of a failure.

That's what the game currently feels like with so many of these iconic rivalries. Fallen vs Dark Angels by the actual current rules is a fething embarrassment of a "game", as is a fight between basically any chaos space marine and loyalist marine army, Drazar vs any Pheonix Lord you care to pit him against, Ghaz vs Yarrick, etc.

Just in general, your 'epic character duels' basically boil down to:

Alright this is gonna be awesome, so the space marine captain heroically charges into the Ork Warboss, swings aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand he's dead! Yep, wow, that was enough wounds to kill him 2 times over huh, alright, so lets set that up again and have the warboss charge the captain, he swings and, yep, looks like the captain is also dead, 7-8 wounds on that bad boy.

Yeah they make a big deal of lore aspects like the fallen and they do so in the periphery of the table top game making you think they will do something. And a little bit of effort could pay big dividends but it never happens. Why give cypher a new model when no one is playing fallen as far as I am aware. Especially when there are people out there desperately wanting to update their entire eldar army.

Infact they add so much non playable stuff into the marketing that a new player would be for given for being bemused as to all the missing models.

The only thing I can hope is that the extra lore and re-production of the fallen rules is to keep them in mind/current pending more content in the CSM codex.

I’m also hoping for more creations of bile units but I doubt it. But both these warlords have great new models, a lot of new fluff, give them an army to lead.

 the_scotsman wrote:


Alright this is gonna be awesome, so the space marine captain heroically charges into the Ork Warboss, swings aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand he's dead! Yep, wow, that was enough wounds to kill him 2 times over huh, alright, so lets set that up again and have the warboss charge the captain, he swings and, yep, looks like the captain is also dead, 7-8 wounds on that bad boy.

Haha, this is so true. Frankly, you could generalize this to the whole game though, couldn't you: the game has been set up in a way so that everything kills pretty much everything else without a chance for it to respond. Most combats result in the unit that strikes first wiping or close to wiping the enemy. Most shooting phases result in whatever unit you target being deleted.

Basically nothing survives more than a round of engagement in this game. It's overwhelmingly just about how you trade your pieces. It's getting close to chess in terms of the attacker just killing the defender no matter what.

Alright: if we put all the salt to the side for a moment; is it possible to build a functional detachment of Fallen to slot into another army and give the Dark Angels a fun game? (The maximum points you can make one of these detachments is 1383, if you load three max squads of fallen with thunderhammers, a lascannon and a champion with a powerfist and combi weapon, and two sorcerers with jumppack and thunderhammer, and five Rhinos with combi weapon.)

I play guard, and they kept the Imperium keyword, so I'm going to theory hammer this from the perspective of adding some to my army.

Detachment composition is basically decided for you; rule of three means you're taking three squads of Fallen, no more, no less.*
(*You could take just one as an aux detachment.)

I don't want to take named characters, so I'd take a sorcerer.

A Socerer and three squads of five Fallen runs us 300 points.

I'm going to do all the mathhammer vs Deathwing Terminators, because, well, that's what the Unforgiven send after the Fallen.

So, the good news right off the bat is probably that sorcerer, the three powers we're interested in are the first three, since the Fallen don't have "Heretic Astartes" to make use of the other three.

Infernal Gaze gives us 3 MWs on a 4+ each, consistent.

Death Hex turns off invulns; potentially good, but only if we have AP -4 to throw at them; so, basically, Melta and a few super heavy weapons. Take the invulns off a unit of deathwing terminators and then hit them with a volcano cannon? Not particularly points efficient, but the idea of the Fallen comandeering a super heavy company is amusing.

But Gift of Chaos is probably what we really want; on a D6 roll higher than the toughness of the Deathwing Terminators, we'll inflict D3+3 MW. That's a dead terminator and another likely on his last wound. Need to get within 6", but, worth it.

Now onto the squads of Fallen.

If we fit them out with Plasmaguns or Meltaguns, they're five points more than similarly equipped Stormtroopers. For that they get a 3+ save. So, perhaps not best used in this roll, though we could give them the re-roll to wound with the stratagem.

What about as assault troops?

Well, adding five chainswords to each unit is free, but, 16 S4 AP -1 D1 attacks don't really cut through Deathwing Terminators very well. They average one wound per fight phase.

Okay, what about lightning claws? We can do a unit with 5 of those for 95 points!

21 S4 AP2 Attacks re-rolling wounds gets us a lot closer, that averages five unsaved wounds per fight phase.

So... with three squads kitted out like that you could do 15 wounds, that's a squad of Deathwing wiped in an assualt. If you soften them up first with some MW, you might be able to do it with only two squads.

Of course, taking three like this will run you 285 points, you'll need to take out two squads of Terminators to come out on top, but it seems kinda do-able.

Hmmm, okay, what if we give them all powerfists?
We only get an average of 4 damage. Lightning claws are better.


Thunderhammers?
Well, we can only take 4, but they give us 6 average damage, if we pair that with a lightening claw on our champion we can get another 1 wound past in general.

Obviously, most expensive, at 123 points though, for 7 wounds in combat.

So, let's compare those 3, 5 man lightning claw squads to bullgryn. They're just a little more expensive than 8 bullgryn, so we'll use that.

They'll deal an average of only 8 damage on the charge. A lot less than our lightning claw boys; though with 24 T5 2+sv wounds, they are a lot more durable.

That leads us to the next question though, Rhinos? Without them you can march up the board making use of those bolters, but with them you can keep your relatively fragile 1 wound marines protected turn 1; and you don't need three, just 2.

They'd bring the whole detachment's cost up to 555 points with a combi weapon each. Without them, it's a tidy 375 points for an assualt group that should be able to wipe out a Deathwing squad each turn.

Back it up with some guardsmen to provide obsec, some sentinels to hold the line elsewhere, and some more psychic support from Astropaths or a Primaris Psyker?

I’ll just continue to use Alpha Legion rules for my Fallen army then.

Look at how far Games Workshop have Fallen

I don’t think you can take a sorcerer with your fallen in an imperium army, the point at which you take a sorcerer or a chaosnrhino I think you give up the imperium key word

mrFickle wrote:
I don’t think you can take a sorcerer with your fallen in an imperium army, the point at which you take a sorcerer or a chaosnrhino I think you give up the imperium key word

Sorcerers and Rhino both get their heretic astartes keyword replaced with Imperium.

So, lazy update with lazy consequences - looks like the reprint is of the original specialist detachment (sorcerer/rhino replace <heretic astartes> with <imperium> and <fallen> keywords) and not the post FAQ rules (everyone loses <imperium> keyword) - is the silver lining to this that they can be souped into imperial lists for imperial dark hereticus discipline shenanigans?

Here's a thought: just proxy Cypher as a suitable HQ model and run your fallen as a dark angels army.

I would humbly suggest the Ravenwing Talonmaster with the warlord trait that allows him to fall back and shoot.

Any time your opponent asks about why Cypher's stats are so good, just explain that he's a good strong fast shooty boy and he's got good good guns and can run really quick and shoot really great and jump really high like an anime protagonist.

"say, why does cypher's plasma pistol have 6 shots and 36" range?"

"he's great at aiming it."

"so how come his bolt pistol has 12 shots at strength six"

"he pulls the trigger very fast and since he's moving really quick the extra velocity on the bullets makes it S6 Ap-1"

"so 18" move and the FLY keyword..."

"yep, he's just so quick, like a naruto or a bruce lee."

"And the sword on his back..."

"turns out it was just a regular power sword, go figure. Just a really nice one."

 the_scotsman wrote:
Here's a thought: just proxy Cypher as a suitable HQ model and run your fallen as a dark angels army.

I would humbly suggest the Ravenwing Talonmaster with the warlord trait that allows him to fall back and shoot.

Any time your opponent asks about why Cypher's stats are so good, just explain that he's a good strong fast shooty boy and he's got good good guns and can run really quick and shoot really great and jump really high like an anime protagonist.

"say, why does cypher's plasma pistol have 6 shots and 36" range?"

"he's great at aiming it."

"so how come his bolt pistol has 12 shots at strength six"

"he pulls the trigger very fast and since he's moving really quick the extra velocity on the bullets makes it S6 Ap-1"

"so 18" move and the FLY keyword..."

"yep, he's just so quick, like a naruto or a bruce lee."

"And the sword on his back..."

"turns out it was just a regular power sword, go figure. Just a really nice one."

Don't forget to mount him on the right size base (whatever that is) for a Talon Master.

ccs wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:
Here's a thought: just proxy Cypher as a suitable HQ model and run your fallen as a dark angels army.

I would humbly suggest the Ravenwing Talonmaster with the warlord trait that allows him to fall back and shoot.

Any time your opponent asks about why Cypher's stats are so good, just explain that he's a good strong fast shooty boy and he's got good good guns and can run really quick and shoot really great and jump really high like an anime protagonist.

"say, why does cypher's plasma pistol have 6 shots and 36" range?"

"he's great at aiming it."

"so how come his bolt pistol has 12 shots at strength six"

"he pulls the trigger very fast and since he's moving really quick the extra velocity on the bullets makes it S6 Ap-1"

"so 18" move and the FLY keyword..."

"yep, he's just so quick, like a naruto or a bruce lee."

"And the sword on his back..."

"turns out it was just a regular power sword, go figure. Just a really nice one."

Don't forget to mount him on the right size base (whatever that is) for a Talon Master.

yeah for sure, what I'm definitely 100% going to do is buy an official games workshop super gakky flying stand, and carefully glue the tiny contact point of that base to the bottom of the foot of my Cypher model, and then base him on the proper size base for a Ravenwing Tm Talonmaster Tm model.

 Insularum wrote:
So, lazy update with lazy consequences - looks like the reprint is of the original specialist detachment (sorcerer/rhino replace <heretic astartes> with <imperium> and <fallen> keywords) and not the post FAQ rules (everyone loses <imperium> keyword) - is the silver lining to this that they can be souped into imperial lists for imperial dark hereticus discipline shenanigans?

Yes, with an observation that most funky dark hereticus powers - warptime, diabolic strength and prescience - need a heretic astartes target. The only power which really offers anything new which still works is death hex.

The sorceror is still a CHAOS CHARACTER, so I guess demonic rituals are all good if you want a grab bag of reinforcement points to spend.

I am kind of irked. It's not just that it's a reprint, but you spent time and effort reformatting it before reprinting it, and still did it in a way that a) isn't tournament legal, b) didn't capture the universal +1 strength to force and power, swords, c) leaves the FALLEN with basically no stratagems or warlord traits (because the sorcerer isn't HERETIC ASTARTES and the FALLEN aren't a 'chaos space marine detachment').

And then the "gallery of the fallen" shows loads of units - captains, dreadnoughts, terminators, that you can't use.

Delete

Homebrew is indeed the only way to go.

 bullyboy wrote:
Homebrew is indeed the only way to go.

It's incredibly easy to do in practice isn't it? Unfortunately it seems a large amount of folk in the modern community are sticklers for 100% official rules which is very much in opposition to how the games has always been sold and played that I simply don't understand it.

That said, this is half bottomed. If you're going to put a WD index for incredibly niche factions do it properly or leave it to the players.

Dai wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Homebrew is indeed the only way to go.

It's incredibly easy to do in practice isn't it? Unfortunately it seems a large amount of folk in the modern community are sticklers for 100% official rules which is very much in opposition to how the games has always been sold and played that I simply don't understand it.

That said, this is half bottomed. If you're going to put a WD index for incredibly niche factions do it properly or leave it to the players.

Yeah. Literally a simple guideline about how to run Dark Angels as Fallen would have been more useful to the players.

The fact that GW includes a super lame datasheet for Fallen and Cypher is honestly more limiting than having no 'official' rules at all.

The cult of officialdom strikes again!

 the_scotsman wrote:

Dai wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Homebrew is indeed the only way to go.

It's incredibly easy to do in practice isn't it? Unfortunately it seems a large amount of folk in the modern community are sticklers for 100% official rules which is very much in opposition to how the games has always been sold and played that I simply don't understand it.

That said, this is half bottomed. If you're going to put a WD index for incredibly niche factions do it properly or leave it to the players.

Yeah. Literally a simple guideline about how to run Dark Angels as Fallen would have been more useful to the players.

The fact that GW includes a super lame datasheet for Fallen and Cypher is honestly more limiting than having no 'official' rules at all.

Exactly. It's one of the things I think 40k has lost over the last decade or so. Prior to every sub-faction having its own bespoke rules people would just use whatever rules matched their head-canon, usually with quite an impressive amount of dedication to the modelling side of the hobby. Do we really need a specific Fallen set of rules when a bit of imagination and either the CSM or DA Codices provide all the tools you really need? The minute there are official rules everything else ceases to have any meaning for a lot of people and I think in certain ways the game is worse for it.