Switch Theme:

Mortarion + CSM Chaos Familiar stratagem  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The strat authorizes him to use Dark Hereticus, if he can use the strat. It would be nonsensical to say he can use the strat that allows him to get a Dark Hereticus power, but he can't actually get a Dark Hereticus power that the strat specifically allows him to get. That doesn't make any sense - either the strat empowers him to access it when he otherwise couldn't, or it doesn't.






This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 01:30:37


 
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




The strat was written before the FAQ changed everything. So, if you're going to force a choice... It's not really that hard of a decision, Morty can't use the strat because the FAQ is the more recent publication.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The FAQ adding <LEGION> says nothing at all about whether he can use the strat; it doesn't add <LEGION> to the requirements to use the strat. I don't see how that has any bearing one way or the other.
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

 alextroy wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
What I meant is that DEATH GUARD is not the same as <Legion>. Morty cannot replace it with DEATH GUARD, because there is no permission from the DEATH GUARD codex to do so.
But there is permission to do so from page 3 of the core rules under Keywords. It allows you to replace <LEGION> with a Legion, with units from Chaos Space Marines being forbidden from replacing with Death Guard or Thousand Sons. Since Morty is not from that codex, there is no problem replacing <LEGION> in Warp Time with his legion keyword of Death Guard.

And yes, GW never states in a rules context that Death Guard is a legion. If you can't figure that out, there is no hope for you using GWs rules


No, there is no permission from pg. 3.

KEYWORDS
All datasheets have a list of keywords, separated into Faction keywords and other keywords. The former can be used as a guide to help decide which models to include in your army, but otherwise both sets of keywords are functionally the same. In either case, keywords appear in KEYWORD BOLD in the rules. Keywords are sometimes linked to (or ‘tagged’ by) a rule. For example, a rule might say that it applies to ‘INFANTRY units’. This means it only applies to units that have the INFANTRY keyword on their datasheet. The pluralisation (or not) of keywords does not affect which units the rule in question applies to.

Some datasheets have keywords that are presented in angular brackets, such as <CHAPTER>, <LEGION> and <MARK OF CHAOS>. This is shorthand for keywords that you can select yourself (with certain restrictions, as described in the publication that contains that datasheet). You must decide what these keywords will be at the moment such a unit is added to your army (whether before the battle or during). If another rule uses keywords in angular brackets, then that keyword matches the keyword that you selected of the unit using that rule.


<LEGION> is a keyword you can select yourself, when a unit is added to your army, before the battle or during. Before the battle morty has no <LEGION>, and morty isnt added during the battle. So you cannot select <LEGION> to be DEATH GUARD. Furthermore, there is nothing in the DG codex saying anything about this selection. Furthermore the CSM codex says you cannot choose DEATH GUARD as one of these keywords determining which Legion a unit in this codex is from, as written in the CSM codex on pg. 118. Furthermore, morty isnt from the CSM codex, no permission to select DEATH GUARD for <LEGION>.


SLAVES TO DARKNESS

This section contains all of the datasheets that you will need in order to fight battles with your Chaos Space Marine miniatures. Each datasheet includes the characteristics profiles of the unit it describes, as well as any wargear and abilities it may have. Some rules are common to several Chaos Space Marine units – these are described below and referenced on the datasheets.

KEYWORDS

Throughout this section you will come across keywords that are within angular brackets, specifically <LEGION> and <MARK OF CHAOS>. These are shorthand for a keyword of your own choosing, as described below.

<LEGION>

Chaos Space Marines belong to a Legion or Renegade Chapter. For simplicity we will refer to all of these as Legions, even though in truth Renegade Chapters have a different genesis.

Some datasheets specify what Legion the unit is from (e.g. Abaddon the Despoiler has the BLACK LEGION keyword, so is from the Black Legion). If a Heretic Astartes datasheet does not specify which Legion it is from, it will have the <LEGION> keyword. When you include such a unit in your army, you must nominate which Legion that unit is from. You then simply replace the <LEGION> keyword in every instance on that unit’s datasheet with the name of your chosen Legion.

For example, if you were to include a Chaos Lord in your army, and you decided he was from the Alpha Legion, his <LEGION> Faction keyword is changed to ALPHA LEGION and his Lord of Chaos ability would then read: ‘You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 made for friendly ALPHA LEGION units within 6" of this model.’

The Death Guard, Thousand Sons and Fallen deviate significantly in terms of organisation and fighting styles. As a result, you cannot choose one of these keywords when determining which Legion a unit in this codex is from. The rules and abilities for the Death Guard and Thousand Sons Legions are detailed in their own codexes, and both of the datasheets that describe the forces of the Fallen can be found later in this book.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Morty's DEATH GUARD is a <LEGION>. For it not to be, we have to accept your argument that sometimes DEATH GUARD is a <LEGION> (for e.g. Contemptors) and sometimes it isn't a <LEGION> (for DG codex units), which violates the basic rules of the game re: the same keyword not meaning the same thing from a rules point of view.

DEATH GUARD can't sometimes be a <LEGION> and sometimes not be. The whole point of a keyword is that it has the same rules impact no matter where you see it. It literally isn't a keyword if it sometimes means one thing and sometimes means a different thing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 04:45:01


 
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

Yes, Morty's DEATH GUARD is a <LEGION>. But you cannot select DEATH GUARD to be <LEGION>. The CSM codex says you cannot do so. And the DG codex doesnt give you permission.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 04:48:40


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




You literally just wrote:

Before the battle morty has no <LEGION>, and morty isnt added during the battle.


Assuming this means you've done a 180 and now agree that was wrong, if Morty's DEATH GUARD is a <LEGION>, then any psychic power he takes necessarily matches it. That's just how the game works. And nothing in the CSM book prevents it. The CSM book says you can't select DEATH GUARD on a CSM Codex unit. Morty isn't a CSM codex unit, he's a DG codex unit. Warptime isn't a CSM codex unit, it's a psychic power. And you're not selecting anything, it's automatically matched. You don't get the choice to take Alpha Legion or Black Legion or whatever, it matches your keyword. That's how psychic powers work.

If he's able to use the start, he gets a warptime with DEATH GUARD on it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 05:00:19


 
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

yukishiro1 wrote:
You literally just wrote:

Before the battle morty has no <LEGION>, and morty isnt added during the battle.


Assuming this means you've done a 180 and now agree that was wrong, if Morty's DEATH GUARD is a <LEGION>, then any psychic power he takes necessarily matches it. That's just how the game works. And nothing in the CSM book prevents it. The CSM book says you can't select DEATH GUARD on a CSM Codex unit. Morty isn't a CSM codex unit, he's a DG codex unit. Warptime isn't a CSM codex unit, it's a psychic power. And you're not selecting anything, it's automatically matched. You don't get the choice to take Alpha Legion or Black Legion or whatever, it matches your keyword. That's how psychic powers work.

If he's able to use the start, he gets a warptime with DEATH GUARD on it.


According to the keywords rule on pg. 3 of the core rules you select something for <LEGION>, there is no automatic matching. And you cant do that, because you have no permission to do so.
   
Made in us
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin





Livermore, Ca

Mortarion gets warptime because yukishiro1 What's the point Yuki? No one is changing their mind on this topic online. Do you think a tournament might accept this logic and let you play Morty this way? Or do you typically play netlists in pickup games?


I can give you a real life example of how this type of logic does not work.

I sign up for Xoom/paypal, because I want to pay my employee who is in India. I clearly understand that they are expecting a personal account with a personal bank account. But they have nothing that excludes me from doing this. They do ask me to prove that I'm the owner of my bank account, they ask for drivers license and bank statement.

So I go the extra mile. I show them that my bank statement is my business name, that my business is registered properly and that it states that I'm the owner, and.... I give my drivers license to prove who I am. link --> link --> link --> link -->

I get told no. They want drivers license and bank statement. Not the entire string of BS that proves that I'm right. End result, I have to use a different service.

Morty doesn't have the right keyword format to get warptime to be compatible with deathguard mostly because you can't find that legion properly listed in the CSM codex. And pulling the IA compendium, for a different specific use case to shoehorn into this one is just not going to work.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 06:40:19


 
   
Made in it
Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot





Sesto San Giovanni, Italy

I too agree that the FAQ (for once) in very clear. The strat can be used with a single CSM detachment, but Mortarion can't use it because DEATH GUARD can never be changed where a <LEGION> placeholder is.

As usual, GW should use a formal notation for their rules rather than the total idiocy of bespoke rules we have.

I can't condone a place where abusers and abused are threated the same: it's destined to doom, so there is no reason to participate in it. 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




yukishiro1 wrote:
The strat authorizes him to use Dark Hereticus, if he can use the strat. It would be nonsensical to say he can use the strat that allows him to get a Dark Hereticus power, but he can't actually get a Dark Hereticus power that the strat specifically allows him to get. That doesn't make any sense - either the strat empowers him to access it when he otherwise couldn't, or it doesn't.







He is explicitly forbidden
Show the explicit allowance to override the rest4iction. Page and para
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 p5freak wrote:


According to the keywords rule on pg. 3 of the core rules you select something for <LEGION>, there is no automatic matching. And you cant do that, because you have no permission to do so.


Did you actually read that rule? It literally says the opposite:

Some datasheets have keywords that are presented in angular
brackets, such as <Chapter>, <Legion> and <Mark of Chaos>.
This is shorthand for keywords that you can select yourself (with
certain restrictions, as described in the publication that contains
that datasheet). You must decide what these keywords will be at
the moment such a unit is added to your army (whether before the
battle or during). If another rule uses keywords in angular brackets,
then that keyword matches the keyword that you selected of the unit
using that rule.


You only select if it's on the datasheet of the unit. Anywhere else, it automatically matches the keyword on the datasheet.

And the very example they show is exactly this:

Nick adds a Space Marine Librarian to his army.
This unit has the <Chapter> keyword on its datasheet, which
Nick selects to be Ultramarines. If the Librarian attempts to
manifest a psychic power that also uses the <Chapter> keyword,
then when reading that rule, Nick would replace that keyword in
every instance with Ultramarines.


This literally proves that Morty gets a DEATH GUARD keyed warptime if he can use the strat, based on your admission that DEATH GUARD is a <LEGION>.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Cybtroll wrote:
I too agree that the FAQ (for once) in very clear. The strat can be used with a single CSM detachment, but Mortarion can't use it because DEATH GUARD can never be changed where a <LEGION> placeholder is.


It would be very clear if it said that, but it doesn't say that at all, anywhere. It says you can't choose DEATH GUARD as your <LEGION> for CSM:Codex units. Mortation is not a CSM: Codex unit, nor are you choosing his <LEGION>.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/06/13 15:51:23


 
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

yukishiro1 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 p5freak wrote:


According to the keywords rule on pg. 3 of the core rules you select something for <LEGION>, there is no automatic matching. And you cant do that, because you have no permission to do so.


Did you actually read that rule? It literally says the opposite:

Some datasheets have keywords that are presented in angular
brackets, such as <Chapter>, <Legion> and <Mark of Chaos>.
This is shorthand for keywords that you can select yourself (with
certain restrictions, as described in the publication that contains
that datasheet). You must decide what these keywords will be at
the moment such a unit is added to your army (whether before the
battle or during). If another rule uses keywords in angular brackets,
then that keyword matches the keyword that you selected of the unit
using that rule.


You only select if it's on the datasheet of the unit. Anywhere else, it automatically matches the keyword on the datasheet.


Selecting a keyword is still needed. And you didnt select any keyword.
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

 p5freak wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:


According to the keywords rule on pg. 3 of the core rules you select something for <LEGION>, there is no automatic matching. And you cant do that, because you have no permission to do so.


Did you actually read that rule? It literally says the opposite:

Some datasheets have keywords that are presented in angular
brackets, such as <Chapter>, <Legion> and <Mark of Chaos>.
This is shorthand for keywords that you can select yourself (with
certain restrictions, as described in the publication that contains
that datasheet). You must decide what these keywords will be at
the moment such a unit is added to your army (whether before the
battle or during). If another rule uses keywords in angular brackets,
then that keyword matches the keyword that you selected of the unit
using that rule.


You only select if it's on the datasheet of the unit. Anywhere else, it automatically matches the keyword on the datasheet.


Selecting a keyword is still needed. And you didnt select any keyword.


Death Guard can certainly be a keyword. It's not a unit from Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 p5freak wrote:


Selecting a keyword is still needed. And you didnt select any keyword.


You only need to select a keyword if it isn't pre-selected. Mortarion's <LEGION> is pre-selected to be DEATH GUARD. Therefore, any further instances of the rule with <LEGION> match it, just like when you take Huron Blackheart, his psychic powers match his preselected <LEGION> keyword.

Are you actually trying to claim that <LEGION> only automatically matches the keyword if the datasheet doesn't have a <LEGION> preselected? So Huron Blackheart could select ALPHA LEGION for his Warptime if he wanted to, even though his <LEGION> is preselected as Red Corsairs?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 16:27:37


 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

yukishiro1 wrote:
 p5freak wrote:


Selecting a keyword is still needed. And you didnt select any keyword.


You only need to select a keyword if it isn't pre-selected. Mortarion's <LEGION> is pre-selected to be DEATH GUARD. Therefore, any further instances of the rule with <LEGION> match it, just like when you take Huron Blackheart, his psychic powers match his preselected <LEGION> keyword.

Are you actually trying to claim that <LEGION> only automatically matches the keyword if the datasheet doesn't have a <LEGION> preselected? So Huron Blackheart could select ALPHA LEGION for his Warptime if he wanted to, even though his <LEGION> is preselected as Red Corsairs?

For that matter, <LEGION> could be anything.

If I want to run a Legion named Herman's Heretics, that would substitute for <LEGION>.

AFAIK Death Guard is not restricted from being used the same way.

   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Yuki - prove that having the power allows him to use the ability. Page and graph thatniverrides the explicit restriction on using the ability.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




What explicit restriction? You can't debate this way, you need to be clear when you make assertions, not try to make people read your mind. If you are asserting there is an explicit restriction, you need to quote it. How could I possibly address your post when you don't make clear what you're even referring to?
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yuki - prove that having the power allows him to use the ability. Page and graph thatniverrides the explicit restriction on using the ability.

There is no explicit restriction on using the ability.

There is no list of what can / can't replace <LEGION>. Show us the page / graph that says Death Guard cannot replace <LEGION>.

Everything up until now has been references to limitations on units in Codex: Chaos Space Marines, it doesn't apply to Mortarion.

   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

 techsoldaten wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yuki - prove that having the power allows him to use the ability. Page and graph thatniverrides the explicit restriction on using the ability.

There is no explicit restriction on using the ability.

There is no list of what can / can't replace <LEGION>. Show us the page / graph that says Death Guard cannot replace <LEGION>.

Everything up until now has been references to limitations on units in Codex: Chaos Space Marines, it doesn't apply to Mortarion.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/798462.page#11146130

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Yeah, you need to read that again. Nothing in there says that Mortarion can't use Warptime. It says that you can't choose to give DEATH GUARD to a Codex: CSM unit. Mortarion isn't a Codex: CSM unit, and you aren't choosing to give him DEATH GUARD. Matching <LEGION>< to Mortarion's <LEGION> keyword of DEATH GUARD is not choosing to make a Codex: CSM unit DEATH GUARD. A psychic power is not a unit, and you don't get to choose a psychic power's <LEGION>, it is automatically matched to the keyword on the unit taking the power.

We've been over this at least five times now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 17:42:03


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




"Note that the Death Guard and Thousand Sons Legions deviate significantly in terms of organisation and therefore cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section; instead they have bespoke rules and abilities detailed in their own codexes."

Wrong. Death guard cannot USE any ability from that section. DH Discipline is in that section.

Marty cannot use warp time. He is explicitly forbidden

If you claim he can use it, prove it. Page and graph. Third time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 18:27:11


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




That's the argument on whether he can use the strat. If he can use the strat, the strat gives him explicit permission to select a Dark Hereticus power. It can't be the case that he can use the strat and get a Dark Hereticus power with DEATH GUARD on it, but not actually use it. If he's allowed to use the strat to get the power, that also allows him to use the power. Are you seriously trying to say that he can get the power using the stratagem, but then not actually cast it?

I already quoted to you the FAQ that makes clear that you can use the strats in the CSM book on DG units, assuming you have unlocked them with a CSM detachment, despite the language you quoted:

Q: Is it possible to use a Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Space
Marines to target a unit from Codex: Death Guard? For
example, can I use the Tide of Traitors Stratagem on a unit of
Cultists from a Death Guard Detachment if I have an Alpha
Legion Detachment and a Death Guard Detachment in a single
Battle-forged army?
A: Yes – if you have access to a Stratagem because you
have an appropriate Detachment, it can be used on
any permitted target: they do not need to be from
that Detachment. In your example, the Alpha Legion
Detachment gives access to the Chaos Space Marine
Stratagems, and Tide of Traitors can be used on any
Chaos Cultists – this would include any Chaos Cultists
from the Death Guard Detachment.


That FAQ technically no longer exists, because it was a FAQ to the old DG book, but it was a general answer, not anything specific to the old DG book - it applied to TS too, for example. So the question is whether that FAQ is still in effect or not.

Hence why the argument has solidified around "if he can use the strat." That's the question.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/13 18:56:55


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




So, he can't use the strat. He can't use ANY DH power, as he is explicitly forbidden from doing so. So no, it's not evolved. You're ignoring that he can never, ever use the power.
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




yukishiro1 wrote:

Q: Is it possible to use a Stratagem from Codex: Chaos Space
Marines to target a unit from Codex: Death Guard? For
example, can I use the Tide of Traitors Stratagem on a unit of
Cultists from a Death Guard Detachment if I have an Alpha
Legion Detachment and a Death Guard Detachment in a single
Battle-forged army?
A: Yes – if you have access to a Stratagem because you
have an appropriate Detachment, it can be used on
any permitted
target: they do not need to be from
that Detachment. In your example, the Alpha Legion
Detachment gives access to the Chaos Space Marine
Stratagems, and Tide of Traitors can be used on any
Chaos Cultists – this would include any Chaos Cultists
from the Death Guard Detachment.
emphasis added by me.

That FAQ technically no longer exists, because it was a FAQ to the old DG book, but it was a general answer, not anything specific to the old DG book - it applied to TS too, for example. So the question is whether that FAQ is still in effect or not.


Morty is not a permitted target because Death Guard are not permitted to use DH rules and AFAIK Morty doesn't have any other key word to qualify under the CSM guidelines. So even using your, admitted, out of date FAQ you still can't give Morty warp time.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




That doesn't make sense. Morty does qualify to use the strat - all the strat requires is HERETIC ASTARTES PSYKER, which he has. You can't seriously be saying that he can use the strat that specifically authorizes the target to swap in a Dark Hereticus, but that he cannot actually then swap in the Dark Hereticus power? If the ruling in the FAQ that you don't need to be a CSM: Codex unit to use a CSM: Codex stratagem as long as you have a CSM: Codex detachment to unlock the strats in the first place, Morty can use the strat, and he gets a Warptime that is DEATH GUARD coded. If he can't use the strat because you take the position that the ruling in the FAQ no longer exists, then he obviously can't. This is 100% what it comes down to: can he use the strat, or can he not use the strat?

But I'm glad we've all finally come around to the position that the change to warptime to be <LEGION> locked has no impact on the question of whether he can swap in and use warptime himself.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 21:24:58


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





The rule that allows you to change warptime legion name is a general rule on the core rulebook. The csm codex had 2 specific restrictions that modify that rule.

1. That you cannot select units to be death guard or thousand sons.

2. That DG and T. Sons can not make use of any rules in various sections.

As these are more specific rules in a codex they override page 3 of the rulebook in these instances and Mortarian cannot switch Legion to death guard for warptime.

Much like if a codex had a rule that let them charge after advancing would override the core rules and they would follow that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 22:52:04


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




1. Is irrelevant, we've exhausted that discussion. Warptime isn't a unit. Mortarion isn't a CSM: Codex Unit. You aren't selecting Mortartion's <LEGION> it's preselected.

2. Is the issue. Can you still use CSM strats on DG units per the FAQ in the old DG book? That FAQ clearly stated that you could do so, despite the language about DG not being able to use the abilities listed in that section, making clear the limitation was only if you didn't have a CSM detachment to unlock access in the first place. If that is still possible, he can use the strat, and if he can use the strat, he can also surely use the psychic power the strat authorizes him to get.

That's why it comes down to whether he can use the strat or not. The presence or absence of <LEGION> is irrelevant because DEATH GUARD is a <LEGION>, the question is whether he is allowed to use the strat to access the power or not.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 23:24:28


 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

If you have two rules, one that says “Can do [ACTION]” and one that says “Cannot do [ACTION]” there is a way to follow both rules.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




Actually, Death Guard is a Legion not a <Legion>. There is a difference between fluff and crunch. Fluffwise Death Guard are a Legion Hereticus (sp?). Per the rules of the game Death Guard are not considered a <Legion>. Does it break immersion and logical consideration? Probably but, in a game some things are not the same as in its source literature. In this instance the game designers have seen fit to alter the reality of Warhammer 40K so that it deviates from the literature surrounding it. If you don't like it then house rule it but RAW Death Guard are not a <Legion>.
   
 
Forum Index » 40K You Make Da Call
Go to: