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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Turnip Jedi wrote:
didn't everyone want to set fire to Ms Scott, not out of any kink just for a bit of quiet ?

didnt she end up as Mrs Speilburg for a bit ?


Pretty sure she still is.
   
Made in gb
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard







ToD 1984
Married Spielberg 1991.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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Denison, Iowa

As far as the U-boat scene from Raiders is concerned, there is another plausible explanation. The uboat DID dive. The conning tower is usually not inhabited during most dives, and there is a small sealed area there. Dangerous to be there if there is an outer hatch leak, but it is plausible that Jones hid there during the dive, and then when they surfaced again he scrambled out before the Nazis went topside.
   
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Would someone not notice the hatch warning light? I assume even the WW2 subs would have had them given the importance of the hatch being closed.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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That or the modern internet love of spreading everything that bothered anyone as far and fast as possible wasn't applied to films in the pre-internet day, letting them get by with poorly thought through transitions that ultimately didn't matter to most people and provided a better pacing that exhaustively explained technicalities.
   
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 Matt Swain wrote:
The women in fiery peril/bondage thing is a theme in spielberg's movies.


It's also a theme in 1930s serial pulps, which is what Indy is based off of. Indeed, Marian having any sort of moments of strength - such as machine-gunning down a truck of soldiers with the tail gun of the flying wing - is very much an anomaly from that source material.

Remember, Aliens came out two years after Temple of Doom, and FIVE years after Raiders. The archetype of the kick-ass female lead may not have originated there, but I can't think of a movie that did it BEFORE Aliens. About all that comes to mind were the TV shows Charlie's Angels and Wonder Woman in the late seventies. (There are certainly others; I just don't remember them off hand with my swiss cheese memory...)

Buffy (the movie) was 1992, The Long Kiss Goodnight 1995, Tomb Raider 2001 - these were all a decade OR MORE in the future.

Yes, times have changed and things are better now in many ways, but we should not judge forty year old movies on 2021 standards. By the standards of 1981, Marion is among the stronger female support characters of her time, right up there with Leia Organa. Most other supporting female roles - and even lead ones - of the period are literally nothing more than damsels in distress for the lead man to rescue.


Having said that, it would be interesting to see a female character be the one rescuing an increasingly geriatric Indy for once, as he admits he's getting WAY too old for this...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 cuda1179 wrote:
As far as the U-boat scene from Raiders is concerned, there is another plausible explanation. The uboat DID dive. The conning tower is usually not inhabited during most dives, and there is a small sealed area there. Dangerous to be there if there is an outer hatch leak, but it is plausible that Jones hid there during the dive, and then when they surfaced again he scrambled out before the Nazis went topside.


So where did the archaeologist learn about this?

Don't get me wrong, I love the movie. We literally just finished watching it again, showing it to some youngsters who hadn't seen it before. And the movie keeps one entertained enough that you don't worry about it until later, sometimes MUCH later. Whereas the problems in other, less entertaining movies jump out and grab you even as you're watching it BECAUSE you're not entertained.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 04:07:18


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To be honest, Indy spends his whole career sneaking into aces he’s not meant to be, so getting into a contemporary mechanical seagoing device may well be insignificant compared to some for the trap infested horrors he’s visited.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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What about the temple full of snakes?

Where did they come from? How did they survive and breed for thousands of years?

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I like to think there is a fully fledged snake city on the other side of the wall, and they all have tiny pagers for when they need to leap… well, slither, into action.

“Hi Jimmy, another day another adventurer to menace”

“Yo Norm, I know, but was just about to get in A nice hot bath…”

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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South East London

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 cuda1179 wrote:
As far as the U-boat scene from Raiders is concerned, there is another plausible explanation. The uboat DID dive. The conning tower is usually not inhabited during most dives, and there is a small sealed area there. Dangerous to be there if there is an outer hatch leak, but it is plausible that Jones hid there during the dive, and then when they surfaced again he scrambled out before the Nazis went topside.


So where did the archaeologist learn about this?

Don't get me wrong, I love the movie. We literally just finished watching it again, showing it to some youngsters who hadn't seen it before. And the movie keeps one entertained enough that you don't worry about it until later, sometimes MUCH later. Whereas the problems in other, less entertaining movies jump out and grab you even as you're watching it BECAUSE you're not entertained.


Well, Indiana Jones was a World War 1 veteran but also, apparently, helped steal the German Enigma machine, whilst disguised as a Nazi, which was on a U-Boat, so guess he had some experience.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 12:25:06


"Dig in and wait for Winter" 
   
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Enigma Machines were WW2 though, post dating Raiders?

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

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Texas

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Enigma Machines were WW2 though, post dating Raiders?


Good catch, Doc.

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Guys, its just a plot hole. It doesn't make the movie bad. It doesn't need to be defended. It doesn't logically work but the movie isn't real. It's okay to just let it go.
   
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SoCal

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
What about the temple full of snakes?

Where did they come from? How did they survive and breed for thousands of years?


Turns out the other end of the cavern exits into a pet store.

   
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 LunarSol wrote:
Guys, its just a plot hole. It doesn't make the movie bad. It doesn't need to be defended. It doesn't logically work but the movie isn't real. It's okay to just let it go.


Tell that to people judging modern sequels/remakes without applying the same hyper critique to whichever film they’ve decided they need to love to extend the reach of their e-peen

That’s kinda the point of the current convo.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

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UK

he enigma machine was invented in the early 20's and being offered commercially by 1923 and was bought by a bunch of govts who then developed their own versions so wold be ok

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/18 23:17:04


 
   
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 LunarSol wrote:
Guys, its just a plot hole. It doesn't make the movie bad. It doesn't need to be defended. It doesn't logically work but the movie isn't real. It's okay to just let it go.


Like I said, the movie is entertaining so I can let the inconsistencies go while watching it. I find this to be true even for Temple, and even to a small extent Crystal Skull.

However, there is also fun to be had breaking down the various inconsistencies after the fact for a laugh.

(Which is separate from bad movies where the only fun to be had is from breaking down how the movie breaks down... you know the one.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
Guys, its just a plot hole. It doesn't make the movie bad. It doesn't need to be defended. It doesn't logically work but the movie isn't real. It's okay to just let it go.


Tell that to people judging modern sequels/remakes without applying the same hyper critique to whichever film they’ve decided they need to love to extend the reach of their e-peen

That’s kinda the point of the current convo.


As I said, entertain me and my critiques will be friendly. Insult me and my critiques will be far less so.

And take care, you're bordering on personal attacks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/19 01:37:12


CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
What about the temple full of snakes?

Where did they come from? How did they survive and breed for thousands of years?


The crumbling exterior wall with all the holes? The one Indy put a statue through to get out, and is shown on camera with snakes crawling through it?

They didn't have to survive and breed for thousands of years. They just had to come inside to survive the cold desert nights during the last few months.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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South Africa

 Vulcan wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
Guys, its just a plot hole. It doesn't make the movie bad. It doesn't need to be defended. It doesn't logically work but the movie isn't real. It's okay to just let it go.


Like I said, the movie is entertaining so I can let the inconsistencies go while watching it. I find this to be true even for Temple, and even to a small extent Crystal Skull.

However, there is also fun to be had breaking down the various inconsistencies after the fact for a laugh.

(Which is separate from bad movies where the only fun to be had is from breaking down how the movie breaks down... you know the one.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
Guys, its just a plot hole. It doesn't make the movie bad. It doesn't need to be defended. It doesn't logically work but the movie isn't real. It's okay to just let it go.


Tell that to people judging modern sequels/remakes without applying the same hyper critique to whichever film they’ve decided they need to love to extend the reach of their e-peen

That’s kinda the point of the current convo.


As I said, entertain me and my critiques will be friendly. Insult me and my critiques will be far less so.

And take care, you're bordering on personal attacks.


There's also the fact I was 4 when Raiders came out. When I watched it I was a bright eyed teenager, easily impressed with flashy flashness. I'm now 44. Sure maybe I'm a little jaded but I also don't just consume sugar any more. The older movies also get a bit of a pass because they were from an ealier age. Compare a Model T to a Tesla, or a Wright Flyer to a B787. As amazing as early things are there's no need to still be impressed years after the day, without needing to judge them by modern standards. Hell look at Rogue Trader vs current WH40K. The Model T was amazing, compared to modern cars, with all their flaws, the Model T won't even begin to measure up. Does that make the Model T bad? No, it makes it amazing for when it was relevant.

Do the older Indiana Jones have problems? Yeah. Personally I hate Temple of Doom. There have been almost 3 decades of development of cinematography since then. Is it surprising we hold new movies to higher, newer, standards?

KBK 
   
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Kayback wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
Guys, its just a plot hole. It doesn't make the movie bad. It doesn't need to be defended. It doesn't logically work but the movie isn't real. It's okay to just let it go.


Like I said, the movie is entertaining so I can let the inconsistencies go while watching it. I find this to be true even for Temple, and even to a small extent Crystal Skull.

However, there is also fun to be had breaking down the various inconsistencies after the fact for a laugh.

(Which is separate from bad movies where the only fun to be had is from breaking down how the movie breaks down... you know the one.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
Guys, its just a plot hole. It doesn't make the movie bad. It doesn't need to be defended. It doesn't logically work but the movie isn't real. It's okay to just let it go.


Tell that to people judging modern sequels/remakes without applying the same hyper critique to whichever film they’ve decided they need to love to extend the reach of their e-peen

That’s kinda the point of the current convo.


As I said, entertain me and my critiques will be friendly. Insult me and my critiques will be far less so.

And take care, you're bordering on personal attacks.


There's also the fact I was 4 when Raiders came out. When I watched it I was a bright eyed teenager, easily impressed with flashy flashness. I'm now 44. Sure maybe I'm a little jaded but I also don't just consume sugar any more. The older movies also get a bit of a pass because they were from an ealier age. Compare a Model T to a Tesla, or a Wright Flyer to a B787. As amazing as early things are there's no need to still be impressed years after the day, without needing to judge them by modern standards. Hell look at Rogue Trader vs current WH40K. The Model T was amazing, compared to modern cars, with all their flaws, the Model T won't even begin to measure up. Does that make the Model T bad? No, it makes it amazing for when it was relevant.

Do the older Indiana Jones have problems? Yeah. Personally I hate Temple of Doom. There have been almost 3 decades of development of cinematography since then. Is it surprising we hold new movies to higher, newer, standards?


Since I was 10 when Raiders came out I understand exactly how things have changed in cinematography. Some of those changes are good, some are very, very bad. So I also understand not judging classic movies by modern standards, many of which are garbage anyway. More lens flares, more explosions, and poorly subverted expectations do not make up for being a thoroughly unentertaining movie.

ONE MORE TIME. If I find the movie entertaining, I can let go of inconsistencies while watching it. But there's fun to be had exploring those inconsistencies after the fact as well.

If this is not your experience, that's cool. You are not me; I don't expect you to experience things the same way I do. But please do not try to imply I am wrong for not being YOU.

CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
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Denison, Iowa

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
What about the temple full of snakes?

Where did they come from? How did they survive and breed for thousands of years?


Snake hiving is not that uncommon. Garter Snakes will do it in the thousands. My uncle used to live near Carson City Nevada, and was told that old mine shafts down there look cool, but depending on the time of year could have anything from a cougar to thousands of rattlesnakes chilling out in there.
   
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Powerful Ushbati






So, inspired by this thread I watched the movies again. With regard to Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, watching the movies so close to each other it struck me that the first half of the movie very much felt like the Indiana Jones movies of old, with the exception of the gophers or whatever. Cute animals for the sake of having cute animals hasn't been a thing before. Aside from that, proper and familiar Indy feel. But starting with the jungle chase it just turned into sequence after sequence of stuff that seemed to have been mindlessly thrown together without much purpose or meaning to the actual story.

I went into this liking the thought put forward earlier that the core issue is that Indy stopped being a driving force and was only along for the ride from a certain point onward, but it turns out that while I wouldn't call this idea wrong, it's not what bothered me from the point of the aforementioned chase onward. It felt more like it was down to how modern movies need to one up preceding entries and inevitably discard verisimilitude for spectacle along the way. The sword fight on the moving cars, for instance, bothered me. We've had fights on moving vehicles before. Both on a single vehicle and going back and forth between two vehicles. And they all accounted for the movement of the vehicles, terrain and other factors that would interrupt fights only to get picked up again after the obstacle was passed. Indy 4 doesn't do that. Commie lady and teenage delinquent happily fight on top of cars speeding over rough ground like they're in a training session on campus. When the cars get separated, teenage delinquent precariously balances between both cars but merrily continues the fight. I think it's this kind of escalation that sets the movie apart from the earlier ones. It doesn't respect the world rules and expectations introduced by the earlier movies and as a consequence stands out negatively.

Or Marian driving off a cliff against the advice of everyone else, knowing for whatever reason that there's a tree below to break the car's fall, knowing that driving at a specific speed will land her safely on the tree, bend the tree down to where she want's to go, and then to top it off the tree conveniently whips back afterwards to throw some commies down the cliff. Actually, what tops it off is Marian looking incredibly pleased with herself like she had it all planned out. That's not just a lot of disbelief that needs to be suspended, I can't think of any scene in the previous movies where dumb choices were presented as fully planned with maximum pay off. Even bailing out of a plane in a rubber boat was presented as a solution that nobody was happy with and whose great achievement it was that everyone survived after a harrowing trip down the mountain.

What's interesting to me is that the way the first half of the movie is made suggests that someone was well enough aware what it takes to make an Indy movie in the vein of the old ones, only to fail at showing any such awareness through the other half of the movie.

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Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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A lot of the worst moments of Crystal Skull come down to the same problematic green screen CGI replacement for practical effects and stuntwork. What you've touched on exactly what has always been my main issue with the movie, but it rarely comes up before discussions are sidetracked by aliens and refrigerators. It's a problem that absolutely dogged over a decade of films like the Matrix sequels and Star Wars prequels.
   
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 LunarSol wrote:
Guys, its just a plot hole. It doesn't make the movie bad. It doesn't need to be defended. It doesn't logically work but the movie isn't real. It's okay to just let it go.


Totally agree with you.

The magically appearing vertical drop in Jurassic Park still baffles to this day even when looking at the making of the film, but its an exciting scene all the same. Apparently its a moat but its a hill? Dunno, but on screen it makes zero sense.

Yet Crystal Skull's fridge scene is slammed even though we at least have the "LEAD" sign to actually explain the thinking behind it and that the Indy movies are an action-comedy anyway. In real life, yes the fridge would very likely be incinerated or at least every bone in Indy's body would be broken. But this is the movies where one can pick off a bad guy on top of a building with a hand gun, and a velociraptor is much larger what it was in real life.


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 Flinty wrote:
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 LunarSol wrote:
A lot of the worst moments of Crystal Skull come down to the same problematic green screen CGI replacement for practical effects and stuntwork. What you've touched on exactly what has always been my main issue with the movie, but it rarely comes up before discussions are sidetracked by aliens and refrigerators. It's a problem that absolutely dogged over a decade of films like the Matrix sequels and Star Wars prequels.


I never thought of it that way. Once you can stop worrying about how to make something physically happen it may become all too tempting to just do it without any reflection.

And since we've now also mentioned Jurassic Park, I think a nod towards a certain Ian Malcolm quote about cans and shoulds is in order.

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My biggest issue with Crystal Skull is every single shot that has Shia in it. He is the WORST. He actively ruins the movie with his every word.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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@Lance - I’m not quite getting your point of view… maybe try to make your wording a little less subtle

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Denison, Iowa

I'm with Lance when it comes to Shia. I think the only reason they had him was to try to cash in on that Transformers recognition. I'm not saying I hate the guy personally, or that he's bad at acting in general, but I just don't feel he fits in an Indiana Jones movie.
   
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Devon, UK

 cuda1179 wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
What about the temple full of snakes?

Where did they come from? How did they survive and breed for thousands of years?


Snake hiving is not that uncommon. Garter Snakes will do it in the thousands. My uncle used to live near Carson City Nevada, and was told that old mine shafts down there look cool, but depending on the time of year could have anything from a cougar to thousands of rattlesnakes chilling out in there.


Yeah, if memory serves, the surprising thing isn't so much that snakes congregate in caves and other underground structures, it's how many species of snake from all over the world apparently holiday in North Africa!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/21 20:52:13


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