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Help an idiot out, what's this "page 5" thing people are mentioning?

Can we add "Wash your stanky body at least 7 times per week, so as not to be the AromaJoe"?

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Help an idiot out, what's this "page 5" thing people are mentioning?

This should be the text in question:
http://shin14n.blogspot.com/2005/12/page-5.html

That’s just a list of good manners. Shouldn’t be needed but sadly is. I would say don’t play people who can’t follow this really.

It's not just play. I have to deal with the crowd of them huddling around the table, and swat/gently push hands away from models. They always bring friends. I've even seen a few websites where this sort of thing is encouraged because it breaks concentration.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can we add "Wash your stanky body at least 7 times per week, so as not to be the AromaJoe"?

Here we call those people "Great Unclean Ones"


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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
It's not just play. I have to deal with the crowd of them huddling around the table, and swat/gently push hands away from models. They always bring friends. I've even seen a few websites where this sort of thing is encouraged because it breaks concentration.

When I still used to play MtG competitively, there was one guy here who always brought an attractive girl (a different one every few times) to stand next to him during tournaments. It took me years to realize why he was doing that - and he honestly didn't need that at all because he was a damn good player. Innocent me was just thinking about how that poor girl was forced to hang around a MtG tournament all day with her boyfriend despite having no clue what was going on

a_typical_hero wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Help an idiot out, what's this "page 5" thing people are mentioning?

This should be the text in question:
http://shin14n.blogspot.com/2005/12/page-5.html

To be fair this was the mk1 page 5 which was known for being severely over the top and ridiculous. It's also about 15 years out of date.

Mk2s page 5 toned it down significantly. it's still a bit over the top, but far more affirmative I think. Found a copy of it in a reddit (unrelated!) topic. Point 4 and 5 are especially on point.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/Warmachine/comments/3hw77l/new_errata_launched_some_cried_need_i_remind_you/

It's a very 'marmite thing. Its loud, its obnoxious, empowerimg, sporting and honest. at its core was very much 'this is a competitive game. Play hard. Play fair. Mix it up and explore the game, don't rely on crutches. Be magnanimous if you win, dont be a sore loser if you lose and most importantly, don't be a **** to anyone'.

Ironically anyone screaming page 5 whilst in the process of being a **** was very much against the spirit of everything p5 stood for.

 vict0988 wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
Most of this is fine but there is no "asking permission to use unpainted models". The opponent has the right to not play against unpainted models (or for any reason they choose) but I don't need somebody's permission to use them like I'm somehow doing something wrong. It really shouldn't irritate me like this but GW's elitist attitude about painting models is absolutely insufferable when we are talking about hundreds to thousands of dollars on plastic figures to then spend tens to hundreds of hours painting the things which is a massive investment in time and effort for a hobby before being "allowed" to play the game.

Disagree, you don't want to set up a game and then find out by the time you start pulling out your models that your opponent is going to want to dock your paint points because you have an unpainted model in your list. Bringing it up before the game while you are agreeing on the mission to be played and the types of lists and attitude you will bring is a great idea.

I also vehemently disagree with painted models being in any way associated with game score or any game mechanics as again it puts an undue burden on the player who may have limited means (be it time, money, physical capability, etc) or want to paint an entire army. Not everyone is blessed with the means to paint an army and putting things in place that discourage people who can't get a fully painted army on the table is a detriment to the hobby and posh elitism from GW. Even then not everyone wants to skink massive amount of hours into painting hundreds of minis which is an outrageous commitment to appeal to GW's preferences.

Again it's about having to "ask for permission" to use your own models in a game of army men because they haven't been worked on for hours upon hours to be made pretty enough. It's elitism plain and simple. You shouldn't have to invest massive amounts of resources to be able to play a pickup game of army men with GW's frankly amateurish rulesets.

If you have time to play, you have time to paint.

That said, I do recognize that many people would rather play than paint, which is fine. Just try, for my sake, because I think part of the game is the spectacle, so we can compromise and I'll play against unpainted minis so long as you make some paint progress before our next game, mh? That way, we can each increase one another's fun more than "just go paint!" or "just go play against unpainted minis!" would.

 Stormonu wrote:
I think the permission to use unpainted minis is odd, but I don't have a problem with the rest.

At the least, I think the code is something people should be mindful of, and probably posted somewhere visibly for tournaments, but not required for casual play.

And the "page 5" from Warmachine was pretty off-putting. I'm glad its gone; there is a nicer way to present the sentiment of "be fair, accept loss gracefully and don't be abusive" than that did.

Well...the page says them as examples. Cardinal is only one you really need to follow

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
If you have time to play, you have time to paint.

This topic has been done to death, and if you think it's just a time thing, you haven't been paying attention.

I can't help but laugh at a company that has spent years wallowing in anti-consumer practises publishing a code of ethics and good conduct for its players.

As to the code itself, there are certainly some points that stood out to me:

Avoid using language your opponent might find offensive.

Given the exceptionally long list of words and phrases that have allegedly caused offence to someone (not to mention such joyous inventions as "microaggressions"), I can't help but think that the only way to avoid using language that your opponent *might* find offensive would be to play the entire game in complete silence.

Ask your opponent's permission if you want to use unpainted models or substitute models.

Oh feth off, GW. Shove your elitist attitude up your rear end, along with your overpriced painting tools.

Also, I have no intention of getting down on my knees before each opponent "Please, sir! I must humbly inform you that some of the models in my army have not been officially sanctioned by our lord and savior, Games Workshop! I beg of you that you overlook this most grievous act of heresy and allow me to play this converted model!"

I also can't help but notice that it's good manners to beg your opponent for permission to use unpainted miniatures, conversions, proxies and 3rd party models; yet there doesn't appear to be any suggestion that it is good manners to allow such things, even within reason.

Measure moves and distances carefully and accurately.

Thanks but I'd appreciate it if you sodded off and left this sort of thing up to the individual players. I say this because I'm more than happy for my opponent to just move the front models in a large unit and then move the rest up behind them (and have had many opponents who've encouraged me to do likewise). Maybe they won't be moved with perfect accuracy but I honestly don't care. It saves a good deal of time and I can't remember it ever making a significant difference to the outcome of a game.

Remind your opponent about rules they may have forgotten to use or that they have used incorrectly, especially when doing so is to your opponent's advantage rather than your own.

Somehow I don't see this working in 40k.

If GW expect me to help my opponent with rules, then they shouldn't have first removed USRs and then added an entire CCG of extra rules on top of the core rules, the army rules, the subfaction rules, the unit rules, the relics, the warlord traits, the special snowflake rules etc.

Back in 5th, I used to know most of the rules in other books almost as well as I knew the rules for my own armies. Now I can't even remember half the Stratagems in my own book.

But even if I could remember them all, how far does this extend? Do I need to remind my opponent of every potential stratagem that he or I could play in a given situation, on the off-chance that he's forgotten?

Never deliberately waste time during a game.

Yeah, might want to try that one in an edition where the game itself isn't chock-full of time-wasting mechanics.

Never fix the outcome of a game.

What.


The other points seem largely fine, though I can't help but find it a little odd that stuff like allowing your opponent to see your army roster before the game is a principle rather than an actual rule of the game.

The people that need a page of social rules to not be donkey-caves are also the people who ignore a page of social rules.

No one is going to whip out the rulebook and point to the "player code" when their opponent is being a jerk that wouldn't also point it out otherwise.

It makes people feel better about themselves when they can point to a 'rule' when talking about 'That Guy' they played at a tournament last weekend but it does absolutely nothing to stop 'That Guy'.

I have to agree with those opposed to "ask permission for unpainted/proxy model".
GW has really gone all in on the "go official or go home", when they make terrain rules they don't even do generic terrain, they make rules for this particular ruin that comes from this particular kit. urgh.

 vipoid wrote:
...

If you want, you can make a mockery of everything.

Or you can think about the goal of the guidelines and not try to interpret them as badly as possible, just to rant again about a company whose products you have been using voluntarily for years(?), despite of everything.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I have to agree with those opposed to "ask permission for unpainted/proxy model".

Yeah, no. Don't lump those two things together.

Proxies absolutely should be by permission. That is not a new concept.

GW has really gone all in on the "go official or go home", when they make terrain rules they don't even do generic terrain, they make rules for this particular ruin that comes from this particular kit. urgh.

As dumb as it might sound, I actually like that the terrain rules are for specific bits. It's a bit easier for identifying/playing.

"Why is GW making us use their products for their game, this is absolute nonsense!"


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a_typical_hero wrote:

If you want, you can make a mockery of everything.

Or you can think about the goal of the guidelines and not try to interpret them as badly as possible, just to rant again about a company whose products you have been using voluntarily for years(?), despite of everything.

^ This.

 Kanluwen wrote:

As dumb as it might sound, I actually like that the terrain rules are for specific bits. It's a bit easier for identifying/playing.

Only if you're shelled out for GW's terrain.
I haven't so I'm stuck making it up with no guidelines from GW.
Why can't they just have "ruins", "woods", "craters", like every other game system ever, including older 40k editions.

 Kanluwen wrote:

As dumb as it might sound, I actually like that the terrain rules are for specific bits. It's a bit easier for identifying/playing.

If I know what the terrain is just by looking at it then I'd take that over looking through a BRB to find the rules page that may or may not actually be of use.

If you're making your own...why not just make it to vaguely match the bits you're complaining about?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

GW can at least try to create a communityt that says "you can't be more than this toxic to ride the bus". Now if the toxic people want to go have a toxic circle jerk on their own that's one thing, but this can help empower people to put their foot down more.

I mean this in the nicest way possible:

Without giving some actual teeth to these kinds of things? A simple "don't be jerks to each other" statement doesn't help empower people enough. Most people cannot (and I'm going to honestly sympathize here with it, as I've had to go through it myself) be bothered with the drama or the harassment that can manifest from dealing with some of these people.

The best we can hope for at this point is massive reworks to the fluff+gameplay to make stuff less appealing to them.

There is only so much teeth GW can provide. Giving some kind of written "this is what should be expected of you to play" gives teeth to people who might be less willing to say something when there isn't a written guideline. From what I've seen when there are some kind of rules in place establishing a player's code people are more willing to say something than when there aren't.

I think Kan is right though. For the people who already conduct themselves like good people, this is, at best, a bit of eye-rolling kind of text, and for the people who DON'T? They'll ignore it anyway. It just won't mean anything. It doesn't really seem to have made much of a difference on the Sigmar side.

This is basically just saying "don't be that guy". If you have a "That guy" at your LGS, don't play him. If you run into one at a tournament (which is significantly more rare than Dakka would have you believe - like an order of magnitude more rare), the tournament already has something similar in place and you should always feel free to call a judge.

So much of this just feels like "I don't understand how to deal with people." That copy printed in the BRB won't really change anything as far as bad behavior, and if you are at a point where you don't know how to deal with that behavior (on the VERY rare occasions you're likely to see it), that copy isn't going to help you deal with it.

I appreciate the sentiment here, but to me, it feels a little bit like a problem looking for a solution.

Tycho wrote:
For the people who already conduct themselves like good people, this is, at best, a bit of eye-rolling kind of text, and for the people who DON'T? They'll ignore it anyway. It just won't mean anything.

100% like the 10/100 points you get for having a Battle Ready army.
Not relevant in tournaments, as you have painting requirements anyway to be able to participate.
Not relevant in casual games, because who cares about the result in those? If you win or lose by those 10/100 points, you can always ignore them or count them depending on what's the outcome (if you really care about that).

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Only if you're shelled out for GW's terrain.
I haven't so I'm stuck making it up with no guidelines from GW.
Why can't they just have "ruins", "woods", "craters", like every other game system ever, including older 40k editions.

I don't fully understand. In the rulebook you have the terrain section which describes what kind of features and traits exist + you get a picture showing what kind of (GW) terrain would be usable for this sort of stuff.

As it is not a comprehensive picture showing every single ruin or factory building out there that GW produces, it is clear to me, that those are just examples. If you get ruins from another distributor or you make them yourself, you have rules you can use.

What am I missing?

 vipoid wrote:
I can't help but laugh at a company that has spent years wallowing in anti-consumer practises publishing a code of ethics and good conduct for its players.

As to the code itself, there are certainly some points that stood out to me:

Avoid using language your opponent might find offensive.

Given the exceptionally long list of words and phrases that have allegedly caused offence to someone (not to mention such joyous inventions as "microaggressions"), I can't help but think that the only way to avoid using language that your opponent *might* find offensive would be to play the entire game in complete silence.

Ask your opponent's permission if you want to use unpainted models or substitute models.

Oh feth off, GW. Shove your elitist attitude up your rear end, along with your overpriced painting tools.

Also, I have no intention of getting down on my knees before each opponent "Please, sir! I must humbly inform you that some of the models in my army have not been officially sanctioned by our lord and savior, Games Workshop! I beg of you that you overlook this most grievous act of heresy and allow me to play this converted model!"

I also can't help but notice that it's good manners to beg your opponent for permission to use unpainted miniatures, conversions, proxies and 3rd party models; yet there doesn't appear to be any suggestion that it is good manners to allow such things, even within reason.

Measure moves and distances carefully and accurately.

Thanks but I'd appreciate it if you sodded off and left this sort of thing up to the individual players. I say this because I'm more than happy for my opponent to just move the front models in a large unit and then move the rest up behind them (and have had many opponents who've encouraged me to do likewise). Maybe they won't be moved with perfect accuracy but I honestly don't care. It saves a good deal of time and I can't remember it ever making a significant difference to the outcome of a game.

Remind your opponent about rules they may have forgotten to use or that they have used incorrectly, especially when doing so is to your opponent's advantage rather than your own.

Somehow I don't see this working in 40k.

If GW expect me to help my opponent with rules, then they shouldn't have first removed USRs and then added an entire CCG of extra rules on top of the core rules, the army rules, the subfaction rules, the unit rules, the relics, the warlord traits, the special snowflake rules etc.

Back in 5th, I used to know most of the rules in other books almost as well as I knew the rules for my own armies. Now I can't even remember half the Stratagems in my own book.

But even if I could remember them all, how far does this extend? Do I need to remind my opponent of every potential stratagem that he or I could play in a given situation, on the off-chance that he's forgotten?

Never deliberately waste time during a game.

Yeah, might want to try that one in an edition where the game itself isn't chock-full of time-wasting mechanics.

Never fix the outcome of a game.

What.


The other points seem largely fine, though I can't help but find it a little odd that stuff like allowing your opponent to see your army roster before the game is a principle rather than an actual rule of the game.

You sir seem too be the exact person this code was made for. Like how hard is it too not use offensive language. I assume you are an adult right, so it should be pretty easy too not be offensive. Also just give your opponent a heads up about your unpainted army what’s the big deal. Most people won’t care but some will appreciate it. And really why not remind you opponent about something they missed, it’s a game of PLASTIC TOY soldiers, not high stakes poker. And yeah don’t waste people’s time like why get so upset on that? And well measuring your models movement is actually an important part of the game so why not try your best too be accurate. And holy crap a company puts in a set of guidelines for playing a game where everyone can have fun and not be a douche bag. Like get over it man. Like most thing the most vocal complainers are usually the most guilty. Remember it’s a game of plastic toys. Lol.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can we add "Wash your stanky body at least 7 times per week, so as not to be the AromaJoe"?

And there it is, folks!

 ClockworkZion wrote:


Honestly I rather like it (especially the part of reminding your opponent about rules your opponent forgot), but I'm all for hearing other opinions on if we should adopt this even if 40k doesn't adopt this in the rule book.

Asking for permission to use unpainted models. Seems bizzar. And while I would have zero problems with this, because I do not talk durning games aside for current game related stuff, how would the not use words your opponent my find offensive would work in practic? People seem to be able to decide that the presence of someone is offensive, and that is before even getting in to face to face with the person. If enforced, it would just give a huge edge to people who are donkey-caves or psychos. Don't like someone, or the result of the game. Claim being offended by someone.

The reminding people of rules thing is bizzar too. It is like calling the judge on yourself during an event, no one does that, unless they want a reason to drop or have a scholarship in the bag already, and want to look nice. But I don't think scouting or sponsorship is a thing in w40k. So why bother. Places a strange oddium on both players, and requires you to litterally mind read, and know what the opponent is thinking turns in advance. Something that may look like a bad move, maybe a bait to charge by the opponent, and if I remind him of it and he doesn't redo the move, there is a good chance I will see the bait and not take it.

On the other hand some stuff I like very much. Avoid distractic your opponent. A great thing for me, hate distraction durning games. Proper way of fast rolling aka removing misses, very good. No more playing the clock another great thing. Although if you are to always anwser any question your opponent asks about your army, how do you do that without playing the clock or distracting your opponent?

And the never fix game result is just something impossible to enforce, with teams, people playing people they know. Or simple life stuff. I can play only two games in an event and then I have to go home with my mom. If I drop game 3, then my opponents will get fewer points playing against me. It is much better for me to tell my 3 round opponent that I have to go, fixt the points ratio , probably mirroring the old 17:3 wins. I can go home without feeling bad, and he doesn't his event ruined, because he got to play me.

Most of those things in the players code should go without saying. Like not cheating, or not rigging a game.

For new players little things like not moving the dice, or asking if it’s ok to touch a model can be helpful etiquette that they may not be aware of.

I see no problem with encouraging people to not act like dicks.

dogboy311 799052 11149915 wrote:

You sir seem too be the exact person this code was made for. Like how hard is it too not use offensive language. I assume you are an adult right, so it should be pretty easy too not be offensive. Also just give your opponent a heads up about your unpainted army what’s the big deal. Most people won’t care but some will appreciate it. And really why not remind you opponent about something they missed, it’s a game of PLASTIC TOY soldiers, not high stakes poker. And yeah don’t waste people’s time like why get so upset on that? And well measuring your models movement is actually an important part of the game so why not try your best too be accurate. And holy crap a company puts in a set of guidelines for playing a game where everyone can have fun and not be a douche bag. Like get over it man. Like most thing the most vocal complainers are usually the most guilty. Remember it’s a game of plastic toys. Lol.

It is a high cost , in money game, where people win prizes, on top of the win being a prize in itself. Have you never seen guys from two streets beat the gak out of each other durning a "friendly" game of hockey? The don't use offensive language point doesn't work without a list of things that are considered to be offensive, otherwise your opponet can say that everything is offensive. On top of that, for people that have problems with understanding social interaction, no clear guidliness are a horrible thing. 2 weeks ago I was thrown out of class, because my reaction to a students saying their dog died was saying "good". Because for the last 3 months she has been talking how sick it was and how much in pain it was. MtG has a set of guildlines and a whole code of conduct. If GW wants to implement a , don't be offensive policy, they better write one down, because different people find different things offensive.

I find people wearing Che or Mao t-shirts deeply offensive, on the other hand, I was chastised for my cross getting out from under my shirt durning an event in germany 2 years ago. I can easily imagine games where both people find neither , both or one of the two offensive.

Karol wrote:

The don't use offensive language point doesn't work without a list of things that are considered to be offensive, otherwise your opponet can say that everything is offensive. ... If GW wants to implement a , don't be offensive policy, they better write one down, because different people find different things offensive.

I find people wearing Che or Mao t-shirts deeply offensive, on the other hand, I was chastised for my cross getting out from under my shirt durning an event in germany 2 years ago. I can easily imagine games where both people find neither , both or one of the two offensive.

What is and isn't offensive depends on the person you are playing with. How do you know what topics, jokes and slurs are okay when you hang around your friends and family? Get to know the person, play it safe. In case of doubt, leave out politics, religion, sex and dark humour for the first few games. You will come to an understanding naturally.

On top of that, for people that have problems with understanding social interaction, no clear guidliness are a horrible thing. 2 weeks ago I was thrown out of class, because my reaction to a students saying their dog died was saying "good". Because for the last 3 months she has been talking how sick it was and how much in pain it was.

I totally get your point of view. You simply expressed it very poorly. "I'm sorry to hear that, at least she is not suffering anymore" might have flown better.

Karol wrote:

It is a high cost , in money game, where people win prizes, on top of the win being a prize in itself. Have you never seen guys from two streets beat the gak out of each other durning a "friendly" game of hockey? The don't use offensive language point doesn't work without a list of things that are considered to be offensive, otherwise your opponet can say that everything is offensive. On top of that, for people that have problems with understanding social interaction, no clear guidliness are a horrible thing. 2 weeks ago I was thrown out of class, because my reaction to a students saying their dog died was saying "good". Because for the last 3 months she has been talking how sick it was and how much in pain it was. MtG has a set of guildlines and a whole code of conduct. If GW wants to implement a , don't be offensive policy, they better write one down, because different people find different things offensive.

I find people wearing Che or Mao t-shirts deeply offensive, on the other hand, I was chastised for my cross getting out from under my shirt durning an event in germany 2 years ago. I can easily imagine games where both people find neither , both or one of the two offensive.

Hey, look it's Karol from the Thunderdome who only exists in a competitive environment where losing games of Warhammer gets you beaten by street gangs.

Anyone who says they need a list of what is and isn't offensive knows EXACTLY what is and isn't offensive. You don't go around yelling racist/homophobic/transphobic/sexist/bigoted slurs at people in your normal life so don't do in Warhammer you absolute wazzock.
Here's a real simple rule for if something is offensive to someone or not, if you say it and they look sad/angry/like they are going to tear you limb from limb, don't say it again and apologise for offending them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

a_typical_hero wrote:

What is and isn't offensive depends on the person you are playing with. How do you know what topics, jokes and slurs are okay when you hang around your friends and family? Get to know the person, play it safe. In case of doubt, leave out politics, religion and dark humour for the first few games. You will come to an understanding naturally.

^ What they said.