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nosferatu1001 wrote:
The bar on fighting twice is on units. Not models.

Rule book pg 228 "No unit can fight more than once in the fight phase"

Ork Codex pg 127... when an Ork Character is slain ....blah blah.... "That model is not removed but can immediately shoot as if shooting phase, or fight as if fight phase".


RAW that model can fight even if it already fought. I suppose it could shoot if it was killed in the psychic phase.

 Sazzlefrats wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The bar on fighting twice is on units. Not models.

Rule book pg 228 "No unit can fight more than once in the fight phase"

Ork Codex pg 127... when an Ork Character is slain ....blah blah.... "That model is not removed but can immediately shoot as if shooting phase, or fight as if fight phase".


RAW that model can fight even if it already fought. I suppose it could shoot if it was killed in the psychic phase.

as i understand it, if you are in close combat with someone and dies to psychic powers, you can also fight before you die.

Yep, because it's the fight phase for yiu at that point, and you're in engagement range.

Sazzle- guess you're agreeing with me?

 Aftersong wrote:
Actually after going back and fully reading the strategem, I hate saying this because I've never seen it happen before, but I think deathreaper is actually *painful grimace* right......

OINB doesn't say you can immediately fight, it says

"you can immediately fight as if it were the fight phase"

so that fight would be subject to all the rules of the fight phase. If it is already the fight phase and you have already fought then you can't fight again without something that specifically enumerates a second fight.

"You can immediately fight as if it were the fight phase" means you can fight following the steps described in the fight phase section. Easy as that. Not that the model in going back to the fight phase again.

He can definitely fight twice, and that's the reason why GW wrote the SM equivalent stratagem in a way that's not possible to fight twice.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yep, because it's the fight phase for yiu at that point, and you're in engagement range.

Sazzle- guess you're agreeing with me?

yup

 Blackie wrote:

He can definitely fight twice, and that's the reason why GW wrote the SM equivalent stratagem in a way that's not possible to fight twice.

GW wrote the SM equivalent to show that its not possible to fight twice, unless you get permission to do so.

That's a complete stretch

You're equating a restriction inUNITS and applying it to a single model

Your position is unsound. Give it up.

 Blackie wrote:

 Aftersong wrote:
Actually after going back and fully reading the strategem, I hate saying this because I've never seen it happen before, but I think deathreaper is actually *painful grimace* right......

OINB doesn't say you can immediately fight, it says

"you can immediately fight as if it were the fight phase"

so that fight would be subject to all the rules of the fight phase. If it is already the fight phase and you have already fought then you can't fight again without something that specifically enumerates a second fight.

"You can immediately fight as if it were the fight phase" means you can fight following the steps described in the fight phase section. Easy as that. Not that the model in going back to the fight phase again.

He can definitely fight twice, and that's the reason why GW wrote the SM equivalent stratagem in a way that's not possible to fight twice.

OK lets fight following the steps described in the fight phase section.

Step 1: Select an eligible unit to fight.

Step 2: There is no step 2 because you don't have an eligible unit to select because your Ork character has already fought during this fight phase and since they haven't been specifically given the ability to fight twice your strategem ends having done nothing.

 Aftersong wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Aftersong wrote:
Actually after going back and fully reading the strategem, I hate saying this because I've never seen it happen before, but I think deathreaper is actually *painful grimace* right......

OINB doesn't say you can immediately fight, it says

"you can immediately fight as if it were the fight phase"

so that fight would be subject to all the rules of the fight phase. If it is already the fight phase and you have already fought then you can't fight again without something that specifically enumerates a second fight.

"You can immediately fight as if it were the fight phase" means you can fight following the steps described in the fight phase section. Easy as that. Not that the model in going back to the fight phase again.

He can definitely fight twice, and that's the reason why GW wrote the SM equivalent stratagem in a way that's not possible to fight twice.

OK lets fight following the steps described in the fight phase section.

Step 1: Select an eligible unit to fight.

Step 2: There is no step 2 because you don't have an eligible unit to select because your Ork character has already fought during this fight phase and since they haven't been specifically given the ability to fight twice your strategem ends having done nothing.

The strat gives permission to the model to fight, not a unit. The restriction you cite is on a unit. The model can fight because it's given specific permission to fight.

Also, remember that the strat lets the model fight or shoot. If they had not wanted it to fight if it had fought already, they would have included a statement preventing it. Given the amount of time the codex had been out, there's been plenty of time for them to have FAQ'd it if it was meant to be read the way you are reading it.

For the outliers who don't think the Orc character can fight twice... .... in a way its not

Immediately fight as if it were the fight phase... which means its similiar to the actual fight phase, but its a different one, you probably can't even use other fight phase stratagems because its not THE fight phase, its just treated as if it were A fight phase.

Kinda like you take a road home, but the next day you take a different road home... its still a road but a different one. I still have to follow the speed limit or its speed limit, still need to drive on the correct side of the road, signal if I change lanes... all that. Its a different road. And this is treated like a different fight phase.

 Sazzlefrats wrote:
For the outliers who don't think the Orc character can fight twice... .... in a way its not

Immediately fight as if it were the fight phase... which means its similiar to the actual fight phase, but its a different one, you probably can't even use other fight phase stratagems because its not THE fight phase, its just treated as if it were A fight phase.

Kinda like you take a road home, but the next day you take a different road home... its still a road but a different one. I still have to follow the speed limit or its speed limit, still need to drive on the correct side of the road, signal if I change lanes... all that. Its a different road. And this is treated like a different fight phase.

I already quoted this :

OUT OF PHASE RULES
Some rules allow a model or unit to move, shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power outside of the normal turn sequence. If such a rule explicitly mentions to do so as if it were a different phase than the current one (e.g. ‘that unit can shoot as if it were the Shooting phase), then any rules that are normally used in that phase (in the example, this would be the Shooting phase) apply when that unit shoots.

The only exception to this are Stratagems; if a Stratagem specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting phase’ to affect a unit that is shooting ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’).

If the character already fought in the fight phase the restriction that it cannot fight twice still applies in the "as if" fight phase.

 p5freak wrote:

 Sazzlefrats wrote:
For the outliers who don't think the Orc character can fight twice... .... in a way its not

Immediately fight as if it were the fight phase... which means its similiar to the actual fight phase, but its a different one, you probably can't even use other fight phase stratagems because its not THE fight phase, its just treated as if it were A fight phase.

Kinda like you take a road home, but the next day you take a different road home... its still a road but a different one. I still have to follow the speed limit or its speed limit, still need to drive on the correct side of the road, signal if I change lanes... all that. Its a different road. And this is treated like a different fight phase.

I already quoted this :

OUT OF PHASE RULES
Some rules allow a model or unit to move, shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power outside of the normal turn sequence. If such a rule explicitly mentions to do so as if it were a different phase than the current one (e.g. ‘that unit can shoot as if it were the Shooting phase), then any rules that are normally used in that phase (in the example, this would be the Shooting phase) apply when that unit shoots.

The only exception to this are Stratagems; if a Stratagem specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting phase’ to affect a unit that is shooting ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’).

If the character already fought in the fight phase the restriction that it cannot fight twice still applies in the "as if" fight phase.

I was about to point to the Out of Phase rules.

As unsettling as some may find it to agree with p5freak, this is a valid RAW interpretation of the rules. The rules limit the number of times a model can fight in the fight phase, and OINB itself states that the model can immediately fight as if it is the fight phase.

OINB doesn't create a new fight phase happening in isolation from everything else that has already occurred. It happens within the fight phase, the fight phase rules must be followed.

That would mean, RAW, a model can only attack using OINB if it has not already attacked that turn.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Spoiler:

 p5freak wrote:

 Sazzlefrats wrote:
For the outliers who don't think the Orc character can fight twice... .... in a way its not

Immediately fight as if it were the fight phase... which means its similiar to the actual fight phase, but its a different one, you probably can't even use other fight phase stratagems because its not THE fight phase, its just treated as if it were A fight phase.

Kinda like you take a road home, but the next day you take a different road home... its still a road but a different one. I still have to follow the speed limit or its speed limit, still need to drive on the correct side of the road, signal if I change lanes... all that. Its a different road. And this is treated like a different fight phase.

I already quoted this :

OUT OF PHASE RULES
Some rules allow a model or unit to move, shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power outside of the normal turn sequence. If such a rule explicitly mentions to do so as if it were a different phase than the current one (e.g. ‘that unit can shoot as if it were the Shooting phase), then any rules that are normally used in that phase (in the example, this would be the Shooting phase) apply when that unit shoots.

The only exception to this are Stratagems; if a Stratagem specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting phase’ to affect a unit that is shooting ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’).

If the character already fought in the fight phase the restriction that it cannot fight twice still applies in the "as if" fight phase.

I was about to point to the Out of Phase rules.

As unsettling as some may find it to agree with p5freak, this is a valid RAW interpretation of the rules. The rules limit the number of times a model can fight in the fight phase, and OINB itself states that the model can immediately fight as if it is the fight phase.

OINB doesn't create a new fight phase happening in isolation from everything else that has already occurred. It happens within the fight phase, the fight phase rules must be followed.

That would mean, RAW, a model can only attack using OINB if it has not already attacked that turn.

Fortunately, that is 100% false.

That would mean, RAW, a model can only attack using OINB at any time, as it is not the same fight phase. Unless you have a citation stating it is the same fight phase.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Spoiler:

 p5freak wrote:

 Sazzlefrats wrote:
For the outliers who don't think the Orc character can fight twice... .... in a way its not

Immediately fight as if it were the fight phase... which means its similiar to the actual fight phase, but its a different one, you probably can't even use other fight phase stratagems because its not THE fight phase, its just treated as if it were A fight phase.

Kinda like you take a road home, but the next day you take a different road home... its still a road but a different one. I still have to follow the speed limit or its speed limit, still need to drive on the correct side of the road, signal if I change lanes... all that. Its a different road. And this is treated like a different fight phase.

I already quoted this :

OUT OF PHASE RULES
Some rules allow a model or unit to move, shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power outside of the normal turn sequence. If such a rule explicitly mentions to do so as if it were a different phase than the current one (e.g. ‘that unit can shoot as if it were the Shooting phase), then any rules that are normally used in that phase (in the example, this would be the Shooting phase) apply when that unit shoots.

The only exception to this are Stratagems; if a Stratagem specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting phase’ to affect a unit that is shooting ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’).

If the character already fought in the fight phase the restriction that it cannot fight twice still applies in the "as if" fight phase.

I was about to point to the Out of Phase rules.

As unsettling as some may find it to agree with p5freak, this is a valid RAW interpretation of the rules. The rules limit the number of times a model can fight in the fight phase, and OINB itself states that the model can immediately fight as if it is the fight phase.

OINB doesn't create a new fight phase happening in isolation from everything else that has already occurred. It happens within the fight phase, the fight phase rules must be followed.

That would mean, RAW, a model can only attack using OINB if it has not already attacked that turn.

Fortunately, that is 100% false.

That would mean, RAW, a model can only attack using OINB at any time, as it is not the same fight phase. Unless you have a citation stating it is the same fight phase.

Its not the same fight phase, but all rules of the actual fight phase still apply. Read the red marked part of my quote. If the ork character already fought in the fight phase he cannot fight again with OINB.

Yes the rules of the fight phase still apply, but the ork character could not have already fought in that fight phase, because there is nothing to say it is the same fight phase.

Unless you have a citation stating that it is the same fight phase. (Units can fight in several fight phases, unless you are claiming that units one get one attack all game if they can not fight in different fight phases...)

Page and Graph please.

Tech - except the restriction is on units, not models.

this thread sure went on longer than i anticipated.

Technically, you never fight twice.

Once you use the stratagem, a separate micro Fight Phase is created and indented within whatever phase it is (psychic, shooting, fight).
So, you appear to have fight twice, but in fact, by RAW, you fought once in a fight phase, and once again in an additional fight phase created by the stratagem.

It's not rocket science and it shouldn't require so much discussions.

 p5freak wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

He can definitely fight twice, and that's the reason why GW wrote the SM equivalent stratagem in a way that's not possible to fight twice.

GW wrote the SM equivalent to show that its not possible to fight twice, unless you get permission to do so.

Now your grasping and moving solidly into trying to divine intent for why it was rewritten.

The old wording allowed you to fight twice.
The new wording does not.

The Ork codex still uses the old wording, so you can fight twice if you die.

 p5freak wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

He can definitely fight twice, and that's the reason why GW wrote the SM equivalent stratagem in a way that's not possible to fight twice.

GW wrote the SM equivalent to show that its not possible to fight twice, unless you get permission to do so.

GW wrote the SM equivalent to eliminate the chance of fighting under those circumstances, as the old wording definitely allowed it. And as long as the stratagem isn't re-worded like the SM ones old rules are still in play, like all the other rules included in 8th edition codexes.

The greentide stratagem will likely disappear and orks will get +1T but until now boyz can respawn and orks are T4, as the 8th edition codex is the official ork set of rules at the moment. And it included a stratagem that allows a character to fight if it dies, even if he has already fought in that turn.

Beardedragon wrote:
this thread sure went on longer than i anticipated.

Welcome to YMDC... if you trigger one of the people who regularly get rules wrong but still never go back on their opinion no matter the other side's arguments, this always goes on until a mod locks the thread. Bonus points for triggering two of them with opposing views.

Some of them have been doing this for years and multiple editions, but the mods probably neither have the time nor the patience to change anything about it.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Yes the rules of the fight phase still apply, but the ork character could not have already fought in that fight phase, because there is nothing to say it is the same fight phase.

Unless you have a citation stating that it is the same fight phase. (Units can fight in several fight phases, unless you are claiming that units one get one attack all game if they can not fight in different fight phases...)

Page and Graph please.

Oh, you with the Page and Graph.

The BRB spells out the turn sequence clearly. There is no magic second fight phase, there is a fight phase.

And yes, normal restrictions apply.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Spoiler:

 p5freak wrote:

 Sazzlefrats wrote:
For the outliers who don't think the Orc character can fight twice... .... in a way its not

Immediately fight as if it were the fight phase... which means its similiar to the actual fight phase, but its a different one, you probably can't even use other fight phase stratagems because its not THE fight phase, its just treated as if it were A fight phase.

Kinda like you take a road home, but the next day you take a different road home... its still a road but a different one. I still have to follow the speed limit or its speed limit, still need to drive on the correct side of the road, signal if I change lanes... all that. Its a different road. And this is treated like a different fight phase.

I already quoted this :

OUT OF PHASE RULES
Some rules allow a model or unit to move, shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power outside of the normal turn sequence. If such a rule explicitly mentions to do so as if it were a different phase than the current one (e.g. ‘that unit can shoot as if it were the Shooting phase), then any rules that are normally used in that phase (in the example, this would be the Shooting phase) apply when that unit shoots.

The only exception to this are Stratagems; if a Stratagem specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting phase’ to affect a unit that is shooting ‘as if it were the Shooting phase’).

If the character already fought in the fight phase the restriction that it cannot fight twice still applies in the "as if" fight phase.

I was about to point to the Out of Phase rules.

As unsettling as some may find it to agree with p5freak, this is a valid RAW interpretation of the rules. The rules limit the number of times a model can fight in the fight phase, and OINB itself states that the model can immediately fight as if it is the fight phase.

OINB doesn't create a new fight phase happening in isolation from everything else that has already occurred. It happens within the fight phase, the fight phase rules must be followed.

That would mean, RAW, a model can only attack using OINB if it has not already attacked that turn.

Fortunately, that is 100% false.

That would mean, RAW, a model can only attack using OINB at any time, as it is not the same fight phase. Unless you have a citation stating it is the same fight phase.

Does the Stratagem say OINB is limited to being used in the fight phase?

Usually, Stratagems state when they can only be used in a specific phase. See the comments about Out of Phase Rules.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Yes the rules of the fight phase still apply, but the ork character could not have already fought in that fight phase, because there is nothing to say it is the same fight phase.

Unless you have a citation stating that it is the same fight phase. (Units can fight in several fight phases, unless you are claiming that units one get one attack all game if they can not fight in different fight phases...)

Page and Graph please.

Oh, you with the Page and Graph.

It means give a citation that backs up your argument, you have not done so.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Does the Stratagem say OINB is limited to being used in the fight phase?

You should know it is not limited to being used in the fight phase. You should already know that it is used "when an ORK CHARACTER model from your army is slain."

 techsoldaten wrote:
Usually, Stratagems state when they can only be used in a specific phase.

Usually, sure, but that is not the case with OINB.

id like to point out that MWG studios made a video of Ghazzy boy versus Abbadon.

In said video, they also said that Ghaz could fight one last time before he dies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiVMiG2HXrI

I know its not really a: oh they do it? means its true! but given everyone else is saying that Orks is Never beaten allows you to fight before you die, even though you've already hit before hand, and these dudes also say its possible.. well. I guess the case seem somewhat close at this point. You have like 1 person or so stating its not possible, and everyone else saying it is.

With current rules. Surely it will probably change (probably) but it hasnt changed yet.

 doctortom wrote:

 Aftersong wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Aftersong wrote:
Actually after going back and fully reading the strategem, I hate saying this because I've never seen it happen before, but I think deathreaper is actually *painful grimace* right......

OINB doesn't say you can immediately fight, it says

"you can immediately fight as if it were the fight phase"

so that fight would be subject to all the rules of the fight phase. If it is already the fight phase and you have already fought then you can't fight again without something that specifically enumerates a second fight.

"You can immediately fight as if it were the fight phase" means you can fight following the steps described in the fight phase section. Easy as that. Not that the model in going back to the fight phase again.

He can definitely fight twice, and that's the reason why GW wrote the SM equivalent stratagem in a way that's not possible to fight twice.

OK lets fight following the steps described in the fight phase section.

Step 1: Select an eligible unit to fight.

Step 2: There is no step 2 because you don't have an eligible unit to select because your Ork character has already fought during this fight phase and since they haven't been specifically given the ability to fight twice your strategem ends having done nothing.

The strat gives permission to the model to fight, not a unit. The restriction you cite is on a unit. The model can fight because it's given specific permission to fight.

Also, remember that the strat lets the model fight or shoot. If they had not wanted it to fight if it had fought already, they would have included a statement preventing it. Given the amount of time the codex had been out, there's been plenty of time for them to have FAQ'd it if it was meant to be read the way you are reading it.

That still doesn't mean you get to ignore fight phase sequencing, The strat gives a MODEL permission to fight, but the fight phase doesn't give MODELS the ability to fight, so this means that to satisfy both the strategem targeting and the fight phase rules you have to select a UNIT that only consists of the MODEL that was targeted by the strategem. Sequencing goes as follows

1. Ork Character is slain.
2. OINB is used selecting the aformentioned slain character
3. Begin fight phase sequence by selecting an eligible unit. In this case the only eligible unit would be one that contains the slain model as only that model can fight, and you can only select that unit if it hasn't already
fought this phase.
4. Underpants gnomes
5. ???
6.Profit
4.

You can't select a unit to fight twice, but that restriction is on units.

A single model attacking because of the strat does not = the unit attacking.

OINB does not let the unit fight again, it specifically lets a model fight.

Specific > General.

You don't get permission to select a unit, so that restriction you've made up is not applicable.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You don't get permission to select a unit, so that restriction you've made up is not applicable.

You specifically must select a unit because OINB tells you to fight as if it were the fight phase, open your rulebook and follow the rules for fighting in the fight phase. The first thing it tells you to do is select a UNIT. In order to satisfy the strategem (because it tells you to fight as if it were the fight phase) you have to select a unit, that unit must contain the slain model, you can't select the unit if it has already fought this turn.

It's very very cut and dry.

The Strat specifically only lets a single model fight, not a unit.

You do not select a unit at all.

If you were allowed to select a unit, they would all get to attack, which is not the case at all.

It's very very cut and dry.

Units cannot fight twice in the same fight phase, or in an 'as if" fight phase. When a model from a one model unit fights again, the unit fights again. Which is not allowed.