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 Gert wrote:
I mean it was played off as the Custodian had such a hatred for Space Marines that he wouldn't even consider that some Loyalist members of the Chapter remained. We've seen the Imperium be "lenient" on renegade Chapters before such as with Badab so there's precedent for mercy.

I rememebr when that came out some people where LIVID that Custodes where depicted as anything other then perfectly reasonable

Yeah, it kind of perfectly encapsulates the poor job GW has done with the Imperium. The Siege of Terra has some of the best examples of how utterly terrible the Imperium is for regular mortals. If you haven't been drafted then you're in some horrible refugee camp rife with plagues and famine, and it's the perfect set up for the modern 40k Imperium.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Gert wrote:
I mean it was played off as the Custodian had such a hatred for Space Marines that he wouldn't even consider that some Loyalist members of the Chapter remained. We've seen the Imperium be "lenient" on renegade Chapters before such as with Badab so there's precedent for mercy.

I rememebr when that came out some people where LIVID that Custodes where depicted as anything other then perfectly reasonable

as a custodes player...that anger was plain dumb. Custodes are not above it all, and certainly not infallible. I still think that particular piece of lore was badly written in terms of why they fought, but i dont have any problems with the custodes either being in the wrong or making out-and-out mistakes.

If anything the custodes shouldn't be reasonable, they exist in a "bubble" compared to most 40k denizens and have a very warped mindset (about protecting the emperor, to the exclusion of all else). They spent 10,000 years watching the Imperium, that the master they revere effectively died making, go to pieces and become a mockery of what the Emperor wanted, and did nothing to stop be because they didnt see it as thier place to do anything about it.

xerxeskingofking wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Gert wrote:
I mean it was played off as the Custodian had such a hatred for Space Marines that he wouldn't even consider that some Loyalist members of the Chapter remained. We've seen the Imperium be "lenient" on renegade Chapters before such as with Badab so there's precedent for mercy.

I rememebr when that came out some people where LIVID that Custodes where depicted as anything other then perfectly reasonable

as a custodes player...that anger was plain dumb. Custodes are not above it all, and certainly not infallible. I still think that particular piece of lore was badly written in terms of why they fought, but i dont have any problems with the custodes either being in the wrong or making out-and-out mistakes.

If anything the custodes shouldn't be reasonable, they exist in a "bubble" compared to most 40k denizens and have a very warped mindset (about protecting the emperor, to the exclusion of all else). They spent 10,000 years watching the Imperium, that the master they revere effectively died making, go to pieces and become a mockery of what the Emperor wanted, and did nothing to stop be because they didnt see it as thier place to do anything about it.

I agree, I'm a custodes fan and thought it made sense to me. the Custodes have ZERO trust for Astartes, and in a lot of cases are proably LOOKING for an excuse to kill them

It was written from the point of view of a SoS, who IIRC was on the fence until the Astartes raised their weapons in self-defence at which point the SoS immediately join the Custodes side and start murdering SM.

Another lore tidbit that came to my mind was from a chaos demon codex, but I can't remember if it was an old 40k codex or warhammer fantasy codex. Doesn't really matter though since the chaos gods are pretty similar both in 40k and fantasy.

Anyway, as we all know khorne really hates slaanesh...more than he usually hates everything else. In that little story slaanesh gifts khorne a beautiful ornate cup (as a piece offering? I can't remember). Khorne takes it and continues to smash it into a thousand pieces. After some time though he can't help himself and uses his power to reassemble the cup. Him cherishing a gift from slaanesh makes him so angry however that he smashes the cup again.....until he comes around and puts it back together.

Thats pretty funny.

 Gert wrote:
Yeah, it kind of perfectly encapsulates the poor job GW has done with the Imperium. The Siege of Terra has some of the best examples of how utterly terrible the Imperium is for regular mortals. If you haven't been drafted then you're in some horrible refugee camp rife with plagues and famine, and it's the perfect set up for the modern 40k Imperium.

One wonders whether, if the imperium knew the nature of Nurgle, being a chaos god, they would take better care of their citizens in order to prevent him from gaining any power?

 some bloke wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Yeah, it kind of perfectly encapsulates the poor job GW has done with the Imperium. The Siege of Terra has some of the best examples of how utterly terrible the Imperium is for regular mortals. If you haven't been drafted then you're in some horrible refugee camp rife with plagues and famine, and it's the perfect set up for the modern 40k Imperium.

One wonders whether, if the imperium knew the nature of Nurgle, being a chaos god, they would take better care of their citizens in order to prevent him from gaining any power?

The only chance of the imperium trying to deplete the chaos gods of power died with the destruction of the webway project. Now all bets are off and it's just an endless meat grinder and trying to hold out as long as possible. In master of mankind the emperor himself says after the destruction of the webway profect that the only thing left to do is to rage against the dying of the light. From that point on the imperium was screwed.

Nurgle has been shown to be manipulative of such processes. Doctors seeking cures may get dreams or visions from "the Emperor" bringing them a cure and it turns out it's a Chaos plague. The Kill Team Nurgle stuff is caused by that exact thing.

I actually really liked the Sisters vs GK fluff bit from fifth edition GK book. Not only it praised Sisters (showing their faith and purity can outweigh even the best SM) but was perfect example of desperate grimdark that was NOT usual idiotic grimdumb for the sake of grimdumb bad writers do. Also, the fact that best anti-demon wards need to use particularly holy materials is good way to make them very effective but also something that can't be casually employed in every single demon fight, adding weight and verisimilitude to the setting.

And it's not like Ward even invented that particular bit of fluff, in 3rd edition GK book you could purchase vials of blood and bones of saint as anti-demon stuff - his "fault" was showing how GK acquired these things, especially in combat situation, and that was all 4chan imbeciles (who latched at every single thing he wrote with manic obsession and twisted it with lies to present it in worst light possible) needed to mudsling it. Too bad some people actually bought that second hand inane idiocy instead of actually reading the book

I also really liked fluff of Valeria (too bad GW decided to squat her ) and Crowe - the story how GK contain a really powerful daemon sword might actually be GW fluff masterpiece, one of the best character backstories any GW writer ever did. Pity GW let him quit over screeching of a handful of idiots, his rules were also the best, most balanced edition we had so far (even though 8th has better base mechanics, the Codex quality and ingenuity was much better back then)...

 Irbis wrote:
I actually really liked the Sisters vs GK fluff bit from fifth edition GK book. Not only it praised Sisters (showing their faith and purity can outweigh even the best SM) but was perfect example of desperate grimdark that was NOT usual idiotic grimdumb for the sake of grimdumb bad writers do. Also, the fact that best anti-demon wards need to use particularly holy materials is good way to make them very effective but also something that can't be casually employed in every single demon fight, adding weight and verisimilitude to the setting.

And it's not like Ward even invented that particular bit of fluff, in 3rd edition GK book you could purchase vials of blood and bones of saint as anti-demon stuff - his "fault" was showing how GK acquired these things, especially in combat situation, and that was all 4chan imbeciles (who latched at every single thing he wrote with manic obsession and twisted it with lies to present it in worst light possible) needed to mudsling it. Too bad some people actually bought that second hand inane idiocy instead of actually reading the book

I also really liked fluff of Valeria (too bad GW decided to squat her ) and Crowe - the story how GK contain a really powerful daemon sword might actually be GW fluff masterpiece, one of the best character backstories any GW writer ever did. Pity GW let him quit over screeching of a handful of idiots, his rules were also the best, most balanced edition we had so far (even though 8th has better base mechanics, the Codex quality and ingenuity was much better back then)...

ok, i was in 40k remission during 5th edition, and i've only heard 2nd or 3rd hand tales of the whole GK vs sisers thing.

the pop culture version goes along the lines of:

Deamons invade, GK respond to purge the world. They find that a Sisters convent has survived, against all odds, by sheer force of will and faith. the GK then, more or less immediately and without provocation, proceed to slaughter all the SOB to use their blood in some funky magic spell to protect themselves, then go close the portal

now, that sounds pretty GrimDumb, with no attempts to just fight alongside the sisters or anything, with no "we wish it was otherwise, but it is the only way", just "hey, your blood would make a perfect spell ingredient!" DAKKADAKKADKAA.

I guess its lost a lot in the retelling. Is that actually the case, or are people overlooking some parts of it because it doesn't suit their agenda?

Bad retelling of lore is the number one reason why the 40k community starts arguments.

While were at it, I'll out myself as someone who actually likes the concept of kaldor draigo. Not necessarily how that concept was realized in the codex, cause ward definitely made him a bit too overpowered.
But the concept of an incorruptible being wandering the warp and fighting untold battles, unable to change anything or make any lasting progress? That's a cool concept and rather grimdark...also probably quite amusing for the chaos gods.

Draigo has a good story it's just been twisted and turned by chuds for years to sound awful.
A promising young knight (Draigo) slays the dragon (Mortarion) defending the leader of his order (the Grey Knights). This knight eventually goes on to lead the order until a battle against an evil sorcerer (M'kar) has him cursed to walk the ethereal plane (the Warp) forever. He fights in this realm, yet every victory is hollow as all that is destroyed simply returns soon after. The knight can only return to the mortal realm to vanquish the denizens of the ethereal plane but is immediately returned there upon their defeat. His place in the order is never taken in respect for his great sacrifice.

Tiberias wrote:
While were at it, I'll out myself as someone who actually likes the concept of kaldor draigo. Not necessarily how that concept was realized in the codex, cause ward definitely made him a bit too overpowered.
But the concept of an incorruptible being wandering the warp and fighting untold battles, unable to change anything or make any lasting progress? That's a cool concept and rather grimdark...also probably quite amusing for the chaos gods.

I get the concept, I think, it's a bit like The Eternal Champion from Moorcock. That said, I kind of struggle with the idea of an incorruptible anything in 40K.

 harlokin wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
While were at it, I'll out myself as someone who actually likes the concept of kaldor draigo. Not necessarily how that concept was realized in the codex, cause ward definitely made him a bit too overpowered.
But the concept of an incorruptible being wandering the warp and fighting untold battles, unable to change anything or make any lasting progress? That's a cool concept and rather grimdark...also probably quite amusing for the chaos gods.

I get the concept, I think, it's a bit like The Eternal Champion from Moorcock. That said, I kind of struggle with the idea of an incorruptible anything in 40K.

I think having select few groups being incorruptible is a nice contrast in 40k. It all depends on how they are depicted over all. Take the custodes for example: being incorruptible by chaos is basically built into their very being. They are the best warriors (not soldiers) the imperium can produce, BUT they are too passive, too dependent on the guidance of the emperor and way too few in number to actually make a difference. They are the last ones who know about the original vision of humanity amidst the horrorshow the current imperium has turned into, yet they are unable or unwilling to change it. They are also utterly bound to the emperor in loyalty. They can disagree with him, but his word is law and they have to act on his commands, which is a very subtle form of slavery.
So them being incorrupible for example fits the setting quite well imo, because it will ultimately amount to nothing. With all their individual might and loyalty towards their slave master, they know his vision is dead and they are ultimately powerless to change that fact. That's actually kinda grimdark if you think about it.