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Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench




Bath

 Sim-Life wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
This seems right… the Ao$ scheme is simple black and white scrum in the middle that gives chaos a role. In 40k, there is a less clear cut role, and without the inquisition’s role clarified, chaos remains underdeveloped..l maybe this is the sticking point for GW brain bugs…

W...What...? What about AoS is simple black and white...?


I don't know anything about the details of AoS lore but the factions are literally seperated into binary "grand alliances" of good/neutral(?)/bad factions (Order/Death/Destruction), if you look at the setting with no knowledge of anything else it's pretty black and white which is obviously how GW wants it to be presented.


well, im not that well versed in the lore, but as soon as you delve a little deeper, you realise that "order" contains armies which are openly "evil" by contemporary values, like the slavery based Idoneth Deepkin, or the followers of the God of Murder, the Daughters of Khaine, who are WHFB dark elf/40K dark eldar Witch Elves expanded into a faction. both these are members of the Grand Alliance of Order, i.e. the "good guys", and most of the rest are at best morally neutral.

it becomes rapidly apparent in this setting that "order" is not the same as "good", and even the Stormcast are said to be increasingly distant, cold and authoritarian, disconnected form the people they are trying to save, and they are no more "good" than space marines are.


with regards to the fall of cadia/great rift etc, i subscribe to the opinion that it started as an full-on "end times " style reboot of the setting as was done with AOS, but the fan backlash against the initial AOS release made them backpedal and preserve the existing timeline and setting, leaving them to kind of only half do the end times part and leave Chaos with this supposedly massive victory that hasnt really changed anything that actually matters. the SM are really the only faction to have undergone a large-scale change because of those events, none of the others really have (not even the AM who have had their poster subfaction's homeworld destroyed).

Thus, thiers almost no actual consequences to the chaos victory, or at least it doesnt feel like it.


Thinking about it more, i believe part of it is the relative size of the Imperium to the Chaos forces vs the size of the forces of Order vs Chaos in AOS. the Imperium is, canonically, the single most powerful entity in known space, strong enough to fight everyone else, and itself, without collapse for millennia. Against this behemoth, Chaos feels....smaller, weaker, the underdog. it feels like no matter how many worlds it conquors, its not going to make a dent in the might of the Imperium.

Whereas in AOS, it is the forces of Order who are on the back foot, fighting against the seemingly endless forces of chaos to secure but a small part of the wider setting. it is the "heros" who must struggle with a stronger foe. maybe that is why the fantasy chaos feels stronger?

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
Western Host 1000 pts
 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 vipoid wrote:
 Gert wrote:
 vipoid wrote:

Eldar Corsairs and Renegades and Heretics, the lesser-known denizens of Cadia.

Corsairs and R&H were still around in 8th. They might have been utter trash but they didn't get Legended until 9th.


Nope. Corsairs were squatted in 8th. Their entire codex was reduced to a whole 2 units (meaning they couldn't even form a legal army without allying).

I was under the impression that R&H had been squatted long before 9th. If not, I congratulate R&H players on their foresight by discussing the squatting of their army prior to 9th's release.


The state of the 8th index for R&H was marginally better than the state of 9th legends.
Both iterations can't be regarded as anything else then already more or less dead.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 Sim-Life wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
This seems right… the Ao$ scheme is simple black and white scrum in the middle that gives chaos a role. In 40k, there is a less clear cut role, and without the inquisition’s role clarified, chaos remains underdeveloped..l maybe this is the sticking point for GW brain bugs…

W...What...? What about AoS is simple black and white...?


I don't know anything about the details of AoS lore but the factions are literally seperated into binary "grand alliances" of good/neutral(?)/bad factions (Order/Death/Destruction), if you look at the setting with no knowledge of anything else it's pretty black and white which is obviously how GW wants it to be presented.


And even GW have done cartoons lampooning this simplistic view

Order is not "good" - includes servants of the God(ess) of murder, murderous tree-entities, soul draining vampire elves, merciless Stormcast torturers and killers.
Death is not "bad"- it includes the spirits and other undead who aid their descendants.
Chaos is....Chaos - much of what it does in the Mortal Realms is evil but its not the whole story and it may be that they created the Mortal Realms as a new playground.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/04 10:33:07


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yup. The inescapable consequence of their sheer brutality.

People look for an escape. Cult Leaders do what they do. None of it ever starts off with “eat this baby and you’re in”. It’s always by degrees.

A Slaaneshi Cult might induct members with literal sweet treats, and slowly build their sensory indulgence. It might be “you look tired, try this, it’ll perk you up” and lead to hopeless addiction.

A Khornate Cult might start with self defence classes, to help you fend off bullies and thieves, and end up with an armed uprising against the True Bullies and Thieves, the members so lost in bloodlust that everyone is now the bullies and thieves.

Nurgle? Well, his blessing is the cure of the disease - or at least relieving the symptoms one way or another.

And so on and so forth. Whatever your weakness, someone on the pantheon will have the key to exploiting it.

Show that. Show the constant and unavoidable risk. Demonstrate that the Cults needn’t take over a world. Just disrupt it, cutting power, poisoning the well, salting the Earth, detonating ammo dumps etc.


IA 13 . P150

" On hundreds of worlds across the imperium the fires of rebellion burn, weapons created for its defence are turned to the service of the minions of chaos, and men who once slaved in its service cast off their chains and pledge themselves to new masters in the vain hope of escaping the life ordained for them. These renegades and heretics exchange one doom for another, for their new lords hold them in no greater esteem than the shadowy lords who oversee the corpse of the Emperor's once great realm. Vast armies are raised under the banner of mutants, fanatcis and witch-lords and turned against the Emperor's servants, carving out petty empires for themselves before His wrath descends upon them."


When GSC are a tumor metastasing, Chaos Cults / R&H is a viral infection already having taken hold of its host and sourounding areas comparatively.

P. 147:
" The Chaos space marines, whether the Veterans of the long war who renounced their oaths of loyality to the imperium during the horus heresy, or renegade adeptus astartes turned to the path of the dark gods in the ten thousand years since, are the apex of the many enemies dedicated to the downfall of humanity. The vast majority of renegades are mortal foot soldiers, cultists, rebels and fools fighting for the glory of chaos without ever knowing, or caring, that they are nothing but cannon fodder, meat to be fed into the never ending grinder of the long war. Many of these hapless mortals do not even know that they serve the dark gods, believing in their ignorance that rising up against the rule of the Imperium they are casting off a cruel and brutal regime to replace it with something better. Only when the dust settles on their ruined home worlds is the horrible truth revealed, Daemons descending upon the corpse-strewen wastes.

Chaos space marine warbands often fight alongside mortal armies, though inevitably they regard their allies as mere slave-troops to be herded onto the guns of the enemy to serve their own objectives. Some traitor legions foment rebellions and blasphemies in preparation for an invasion, so that at the very moment of attack, the defenders find themselves assailed from within and without, and unable to mount any sort of defence at all. Others utilise long-hidden cults as fifth columnists, weakening a world's defence by numerous subtle acsts of sabotage so that when the full attack descends, key defences are already inoperable.

Still more drive vast mortal armies before them as they go to war, overrunning the foe, clogging his fortifications and fouling his guns with bodies.

Mortal renegades take many forms. Some are planetary defence militias armed and trained almost on a par with the Imperial Guard regiments of the astra militarum. Others are warrior confraternities, hyper-violent gangs or pirate bands drawn to the fell banner of chaos, a charismatic demagogue or the promise of riches untold. Still more are drawn from castes of workers indentured to a miserable life of servitude who, having cast off their shackles of their overseers, are fated to a short but intense campaign of retribution. Some mortal armies are barely regocnisable as such at all, drawn from the mutant under-class that are tolerated, if only just, on some worlds, providing that they undertake the most hazardous of labours in the service of the imperium. Insurrection boils beneath the surface on these and a countless other worlds, ever on the verge of errupting into a full blown rebellion.

Many mortal hosts dedicated to the ruinous powers have never known the yoke of the Aquilla at all, having been spawned on worlds enteriely in the sway of the dark gods or simply far beyond the rule of the imperium. Such hosts are nigh inexhaustible, their hatred of the Emperor and their desire to cast down the imperium beyond any sane measure."



Right now, what is described above, is a singular entry in a gakky outdated dex.
Chaos therefore is basically some 10'000 year old and some less old vets space marines without any insidiousness at all found in it.
Theres no delegitimising of imperial rule, no challange at all, no nothing. Beyond the GSC dex most of the dexes don't even show how abismal the IoM is and therefore how close to internal collapse it stands. By virtue of that most factions just look non threatening, especially chaos.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/07/04 11:29:45


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






 Sim-Life wrote:

I don't know anything about the details of AoS lore but the factions are literally seperated into binary "grand alliances" of good/neutral(?)/bad factions (Order/Death/Destruction), if you look at the setting with no knowledge of anything else it's pretty black and white which is obviously how GW wants it to be presented.

This isn't actually true. On the surface factions like Stormcast or Cities of Sigmar are seen as the "good" factions but the Grand Alliances aren't split along these lines.
Order is the absence of Chaos and since GW got rid of the big book from 1st Ed, it's a lot more obvious that the Order "alliance" isn't all good guys.
Death is technically another form of Order, Nagash and Sigmar actually used to get along quite well in the Age of Myth. All is Nagash and Nagash is all and the Law of Nagash is strict and unbending. In fact Death is more dedicated to order than Order is.
Destruction factions fight for fun and/or snacks. They're just here to have a good time, which just so happens to include lots of killing.
Chaos isn't necessarily evil its just the opposite of Order. However, since the Dark Gods are evil and the positive aspects of their power are corrupted, Chaos is the bad guy faction.
The Grand Alliances aren't solid pacts, Broken Realms proves that with Order especially.
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

I really hate the new background regarding the Emperor and his direct interventions or direct communication with characters.
BLERGH
Awful stuff. Removes all the ambiguity from the character that allowed a Chaos player to claim that the Emperor was nothing but a mindless corpse on a throne channelling raw power and the fun "I have faith" arguments that Imperials could use in response.

Nah, ambiguity, we can't have ambiguity. Better lay it all out and make sure everyone knows what the Truth is, so discussions can just boil down to "Hey what if the Emperor is dead?" "Nah man, check out book X on pg Y, it's canon the Emperor is alive and these are his opinions and goals." "Oh cool thanks."

It's like the stuff they did to Star Wars, filling in every single detail and the details are always more disappointing than what you imagined, taking the fun out of talking about the setting.


   
Made in gr
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





 Da Boss wrote:
I really hate the new background regarding the Emperor and his direct interventions or direct communication with characters.
BLERGH
Awful stuff. Removes all the ambiguity from the character that allowed a Chaos player to claim that the Emperor was nothing but a mindless corpse on a throne channelling raw power and the fun "I have faith" arguments that Imperials could use in response.

Nah, ambiguity, we can't have ambiguity. Better lay it all out and make sure everyone knows what the Truth is, so discussions can just boil down to "Hey what if the Emperor is dead?" "Nah man, check out book X on pg Y, it's canon the Emperor is alive and these are his opinions and goals." "Oh cool thanks."

It's like the stuff they did to Star Wars, filling in every single detail and the details are always more disappointing than what you imagined, taking the fun out of talking about the setting.



The way I see it, Emps will eventually return Sigmar-style and there will be an Emperor model with stats and rules eventually. They've already tested the grounds with the Primarchs, the Silent King (the God-Emperor of Necronkind, basically) and the god units of AoS.
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Esmer wrote:
 StrayIight wrote:
Honestly, I think the major difference between the two settings isn't so much tied to the competence or ineptitude of Chaos as a faction in 40K. Rather, it's the 'special status' of the Emperor and the Astartes.

In one of the most recent books. Mortarion and Guilliman faced off. This didn't go well for Guilliman as most would imagine. But TLR, some guy we don't care about 'prayed', and the Emperor himself essentially turned up in one of the more contrived 'Deus ex machinas' I've seen.

Someone else in this thread mentioned the Power Rangers. It literally wasn't unlike that. 'We're losing, quick, we need Emperor-zord power now!'

There was even the implication given that Mortarion wasn't beyond saving...


On Godblight:

Spoiler:
I honestly was expecting some cruel twist until the very end. Like, the way the Militant Apostolic was described as giving saner characters the creeps, having "a strange light in his eyes", being unaffected by Nurgle's diseases etc, I honestly thought he was being used as a puppet by the Changer of Ways in his game of Chaos Chess against Nurgle. But as it turns out, he was literally protected and guided by the Emperor? And Guilliman was also literally saved from certain death by Ku'gath's super Ebola and was capable of physically hurting Nurgle himself because he was guided by the Emperor? I am still not sure if I got everything straight.

BY THE POWER OF THE GOLDEN THRONE! I HAVE THE POWER!

But what do you expect when you have people who insist that Chaos be a bunch of mustache twirling villains? People want Saturday morning cartoons, gw gives them Saturday morning cartoons. Thank all of those constantly wailing:

"Chaos can't have/do that! They're too disorganized! They can't even maintain their equipment! Hellforges don't exist! There are no Traitor Guard, only Cultists! The Legions are BROKEN! Only warbands remain! Failbaddon, Failbaddon, FAILBADDON!"

Got to keep the Loyalist's power fantasy going, don't they?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I wouldn't bet on an Emperor model myself.

For a last throw on the the fluff I feel there's a possible gap between these 3 paragraph "Chaos turned up, looked like they were going to win, but suddenly Primaris" and "Abaddon sails to Terra, routs the defenders and then pushes the off switch on the Golden Throne".

Factions don't have to perma-die to suffer meaningful losses in the fluff.

I mean... will we ever go back to Vigilus? Should I expect a neat retcon on how Abaddon's plans were actually to lose (again) but its OK because he was secretly collecting hearts to unlock the Master Sword, so it was all part of the plan honest?
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Nah, Vigilus is now another Armageddon situation. Forces will flock to it from all sides looking for a scrap and it'll never been looked at properly again.
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 Da Boss wrote:
I really hate the new background regarding the Emperor and his direct interventions or direct communication with characters.
BLERGH
Awful stuff. Removes all the ambiguity from the character that allowed a Chaos player to claim that the Emperor was nothing but a mindless corpse on a throne channelling raw power and the fun "I have faith" arguments that Imperials could use in response.

Nah, ambiguity, we can't have ambiguity. Better lay it all out and make sure everyone knows what the Truth is, so discussions can just boil down to "Hey what if the Emperor is dead?" "Nah man, check out book X on pg Y, it's canon the Emperor is alive and these are his opinions and goals." "Oh cool thanks."

It's like the stuff they did to Star Wars, filling in every single detail and the details are always more disappointing than what you imagined, taking the fun out of talking about the setting.


Agreed.

Previously, I'd pondered if The Emperor's current state was an allegory for what happened with Stalin towards the end of the Soviet Union. His close advisors/council were aware that the idea of Stalin was what was holding their entire empire together - so when he eventually died they were using all manner of machines to keep blood flowing and make it that his body was still, technically alive, even though he was basically brain-dead at that point.

I'd wondered if it was a similar thing in the Imperium. As in, the Emperor is so core to every aspect of Imperium life and doctrine that his death would be catastrophic, so they're basically doing everything in their power to keep him alive, even as the definition of "alive" gets stretched further and further.

Hell, even the old artwork for him basically gave the impression of a corpse on a throne:



It's hard to be sure, because of the style, but it almost looks like there are even cobwebs on and around him, which indicates he hasn't moved in a long time.


Of course, that might not be true. But as Da Boss says, it was fun to speculate and hypothesise about such things. Now all the ambiguity is gone and we know the emperor is not only alive/aware but actively advancing an agenda through chosen hosts.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in ie
Ruthless Rafkin





I knew that trying to explain that from the outside AoS factions looks black and white would activate the nerdsplaining, but I did it anyway.


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





OKC, OK USA

 Da Boss wrote:
I really hate the new background regarding the Emperor and his direct interventions or direct communication with characters.


That's not new. The Emperor directly communicated with characters as far back as the earliest days of the game, for example speaking to Jaq Draco in Ian Watson's books.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/04 13:08:04


You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in de
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Nuremberg

If you want to take Ian Watson's books seriously as canon work away.

But thanks for doing the thing I highlighted as unfun.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





OKC, OK USA

 Da Boss wrote:
But thanks for doing the thing I highlighted as unfun.


Thanks for being the fun police.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in de
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Nuremberg

You're welcome.

   
Made in gr
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





I always took Draco's whackier elements (like a 40k Inquisitor quoting Chinese government officials from the 1990s, the same Inquisitor traveling to Terra to talk to the Emperor in person etc) as Ian Watson not having quite grasped the do's and don't of 40k's established canon.

Or maybe it just was a wilder and more artistically liberal time in general back then, with much fewer official lore rules.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/04 13:32:23


 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Watson's stuff is without a doubt cursed. The Emperor can still speak to people though and He was never specifically dead-dead. I personally viewed the situation like that of some Buddhists who meditate for so long their body dies but the belief is that their soul(?) survives and can still become enlightened. So the Emperor's body is basically a corpse but His soul is still very much around and influencing things.
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 Da Boss wrote:
If you want to take Ian Watson's books seriously as canon work away.

But thanks for doing the thing I highlighted as unfun.


It does seem fair to mention this when you highlight it as a new element - why is it only now an issue in novels but was not then?

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in de
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Nuremberg

Fine I guess I was wrong and the Emperor has always been talking to characters.

Which is sad and less interesting than it being ambiguous in any case.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/04 13:45:07


   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





OKC, OK USA

 Esmer wrote:
Or maybe it just was a wilder and more artistically liberal time in general back then, with much fewer official lore rules.


Dingdingding. Very much this. Watson was writing stuff in the era where much of what we accept as fact for 40K was still being developed. Mr Morden also directly hits it on the head where the issue with Boss' statement is that the idea was anything new or novel when it's happened in lore before, Draco's being the most prominent but not ONLY example predating Bobby G's talk with his maker.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

Indeed, I was wrong and retract my statement. 40K background has always been more disappointing than I thought it was.

   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 Da Boss wrote:
Indeed, I was wrong and retract my statement. 40K background has always been more disappointing than I thought it was.


It may also have been less available than it is now - I remember in those old days if you did not have or have read a specific book, codex whatever - you would not know about a given element?

We 40k fans tend to be more preoccupied with lore than GW ever has been and now we have the tools to list and catalogue it to whatever level of intensity we want (as someone who daily adds to the Warhammer lex I I know this can be enjoyable )


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

I don't find that aspect of the background enjoyable at all, for me the setting was a place to invent and create, not to catalogue. To each their own.

My interaction on the background forum and here gradually convince me that I'm not really a fan of 40K, just my idea of it that I constructed with limited information when I was younger.

It's sad but it seems to be the case.

   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Mr Morden wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
Indeed, I was wrong and retract my statement. 40K background has always been more disappointing than I thought it was.


It may also have been less available than it is now - I remember in those old days if you did not have or have read a specific book, codex whatever - you would not know about a given element?

We 40k fans tend to be more preoccupied with lore than GW ever has been and now we have the tools to list and catalogue it to whatever level of intensity we want (as someone who daily adds to the Warhammer lex I I know this can be enjoyable )



40K fans keep better track of the background and timeline than GW. I remember catching (major) Eldar continuity errors in Gav Thorpe's Eldar novels and pointing them out on his blog years ago.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/04 13:59:38


 
   
Made in us
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OKC, OK USA

Iracundus wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
Indeed, I was wrong and retract my statement. 40K background has always been more disappointing than I thought it was.


It may also have been less available than it is now - I remember in those old days if you did not have or have read a specific book, codex whatever - you would not know about a given element?

We 40k fans tend to be more preoccupied with lore than GW ever has been and now we have the tools to list and catalogue it to whatever level of intensity we want (as someone who daily adds to the Warhammer lex I I know this can be enjoyable )



40K fans keep better track of the background and timeline than GW. I remember catching (major) Eldar continuity errors in Gav Thorpe's Eldar novels and pointing them out on his blog years ago.


I'm fairly certain this being a regular occurrence is what prompted the infamous "there's no such thing as canon in 40K" statement.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







Hey, look. 40k in the Realm of Chaos era established the situation as:
* The Horus Heresy ended with the Emperor a coma victim, imprisoned in the Golden Throne as the Imperium rotted and decayed around him.
and anyone who claimed otherwise was indistinguishable from a lunatic. *cough* Star Child *cough*


   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Or they could just have someone to do continuity and background checking. I don't think anyone expects GW to achieve 100% error free background but other IP's do a far better job of checking, whereas some of the errors in GW stuff are glaringly big ones.
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






It's a setting that's about 30 years old. There's so much stuff that's been written about it that it would take a seriously huge effort to pick apart every single novel/audiobook/Codex/campaign book to get a coherent 100% fact canon setting.
I don't think the bit about other IPs being better at fact-checking is true at all. ST: Discovery had quite a few errors until they solved the problem of being a historical setting and throwing the crew into the future, Star Wars has holes and errors all over and an entire movie was made to explain why the Death Star had such a colossally stupid design flaw.
AoS solved continuity errors by being a full refresh setting that also takes place over X number of years rather than having specific dates. There's no dating system and time is only really recorded in Ages (Age of Myth, Age of Chaos, etc.).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/04 14:18:42


 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Not Online!!! 799476 11164097 wrote:


Right now, what is described above, is a singular entry in a gakky outdated dex.
Chaos therefore is basically some 10'000 year old and some less old vets space marines without any insidiousness at all found in it.
Theres no delegitimising of imperial rule, no challange at all, no nothing. Beyond the GSC dex most of the dexes don't even show how abismal the IoM is and therefore how close to internal collapse it stands. By virtue of that most factions just look non threatening, especially chaos.


It took them 12 years to retake hundrads of planets, create hundrads of space marine chapters and reinforce alreayd existing ones. The wars of faith are beating back the enemy of men on all front, and even the hive fleet leviathan, who was suppose to be unbeatable by virture of size, was easily dispatched by Gulliman and his crusading space marine legions. Not saying that the Imperium of Men is not in trouble or besset by enemies, but to call it being in an abysmal state is a bit over an overstatement.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
 
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