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Made in us
[DCM]
Longtime Dakkanaut





As a software engineer I learned to avoid the companies that state they want people that "don't do the work for the money" but because they love the work. Had two jobs back to back where they'd constantly state they'd fire anyone that wasn't happy about their pay as it meant "they weren't passionate" and weren't worth what they were paying you (which was usually half what other companies were). Some really abusive stuff. So I've seen what James went through in person.

Of course they were horrible places to work at and I, thankfully, live in an area with a booming tech industry and have a pretty in demand skill set so after convincing myself the grass would be greener elsewhere found that it was true.

Sadly game designers don't have the luxury of the job market programmers have and outside of GW stuff and Magic I doubt any game really brings in enough to pay super well either.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 21:51:40


 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






 lagoon83 wrote:
 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

Woah, incredible to have you in the thread. Thanks for the labor of love you have provided us fans over the years.


Sometimes I lurk, sometimes I get involved. It's normally funnier if people don't realise who I am for ages.

Hi!


Do you know when we will get to see an Eldar update with new aspects and stuff??

I'm not asking you to tell me (although if you PM me I will take your secret to the grave), but only if you KNOW.

Asking for a friend....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 22:08:31


 
   
Made in us
Boosting Black Templar Biker






Smart money is on 2023 for an Eldar refresh. That gives two more years so they don't have to rush the Primaris releases out the door.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Gene St. Ealer wrote:


That one is interesting but I hesitate to read too much into it. It's very unfortunate that she dealt with the situation above, and I hope GW improves their internal processes. But also, every company ever seems to have dysfunction like this; I don't think it's surprising or damning to hear that about GW. Not every company pays peanuts though, so I am surprised to hear that.


every company has compensation issues too.

It's almost like these issues are... systemic.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I see no new information here.

Entertainment industries (all of them) do not pay well.

This whole thread could be summarized as "water is wet".

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/27 01:53:41


"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


Freelance Ontologist

When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






Its still sad though...

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

bUt GuYs! ThEy HaVe A fAcEbOoK pAgE nOw!!!

This just screams of completely disorganised management.

It's one thing to get paid like a 16 year-old fry cook despite turning out games that are a massive success, and another to find out that your job is ripped apart, passed around to various people, your managers don't talk to you (or change, without notice) and that you get a secondment and get made redundant at the same time. I mean, what the hell???
   
Made in us
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant




Believeland, OH

Makes rules.....cant afford to play games......sounds fair.

"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma

"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma

"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Of course they underpay staff.
   
Made in gb
Pious Warrior Priest




UK

One of my hopes is that the 3d printing revolution will eventually result in indie miniatures games being produced alongside the minis, giving work to developers and 2d artists along the way.

We're starting to see the early stages of that happening, hopefully it will continue.

Automation and owning the means of production is happening right now with wargames, it's never been easier to produce small batches of minis or books.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/27 00:04:21


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Pious Warrior Priest





My happy place.

scarletsquig wrote:
One of my hopes is that the 3d printing revolution will eventually result in indie miniatures games being produced alongside the minis, giving work to developers and 2d artists along the way.

We're starting to see the early stages of that happening, hopefully it will continue.

Automation and owning the means of production is happening right now with wargames, it's never been easier to produce small batches of minis or books.


Especially with some companies actively supporting batch production. For example, Wargames Atlantic with the outreach program

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/27 05:43:35


I play: AOS Death, AOS Cities of Sigmar, 40K imperial soup.

Co-owner of Two Idiots Printing Service, a 3D printing service. 
   
Made in jp
Perfect Shot Black Templar Predator Pilot





Ishikawa Prefecture, Japan

Only part way through James' twitter thread and feth me is that some scummy management stuff. Glad I joined the vote with the wallet club, that whole pay rise thing is disgusting.
   
Made in fi
Ye Lord of The End Times (and a good guy)





 Arbitrator wrote:

Another one of his Tweets also talks about how not a lot actually changed internally between the Kirby and Rountree years, most of the execs were the same afterall. No surprise there.


As I have been saying for years. nuGW is oldGW with new marketing strategy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 The Red Hobbit wrote:
That is a shockingly low amount of money to pay someone who put together games that generated enormous amounts of money.

Shows them as very incompetent from a business sense. They had someone putting out blockbuster after blockbuster they could have given him a modest compensation and he may have been happy to work there another 20 years. Instead they underpay top talent. Bizarre.

But hey the Company prints money no matter what they do, there is no forcing function to make them behave ethically or even smartly in this case.


They don't need top talent...

Rule writers are there to shift game imbalances so people buy new models. Improving game rules etc are irrelevant. They don¨t WANT talent there. With bad luck it would actually result in balanced game which would hurt sales big time.

Rules are just marketing tool. Models is what profits for GW

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/27 06:43:29


2021 painted/bought: 538/575 
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yes, it's infuriating. And yes, very sadly, it's atrociously common in private companies around the world...Just ask how much were paid Mantic Games background writers / rule designers...or more "funny", how is paid their rule committee...

Asking for a payrise is often seen as "bad" and we do really have a problem about our relationship with work and salaries. It's indeed the perception that people who ask for a payrise aren't as passionate as those who don't about their work.

Yet, it has no link. And asking for a better payment when you are indeed part of the success and thus helping bringing more money to your company should be natural.

But it's the same old problem with capitalism...and it keeps growing as difference in salaries with the top is still getting bigger (especially in the US with billionaires).

That's why we need worker unions and why they are so fought against in the US. When workers do indeed gather and talk about salaries between them...they can become in a position to negotiate more strongly than when they're just individuals having to do that alone.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/27 07:07:07


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I've had my own interactions with GW's employment policies and, sadly, this doesn't surprise me at all. I hate job adverts that don't even give a salary range, especially in relatively niche roles like games designer. The thing that annoys me most is the waste of everyone's time. I applied for a job doing writing for their website (this was about a year or two before WHC appeared so it was probably them getting ready to launch that site). They didn't mention salary, gave all the usual crap about wanting people with passion, etc (while also wanting you to have writing experience) and I got invited for an interview. They paid my travel expenses and for a night at a local hotel since I was coming down from Scotland for a full-day interview.

The interview was actually a fairly good experience. Got to hang out with 6 or 7 other applicants and chat about games and stuff, and got to see around WHW and some of the internal workings within the studio. I want to stress that none of the people I interacted with during the process were anything other than very nice, professional people. However, there were some warning signs. The HR person wouldn't even discuss salary during the face-to-face interview part of the day. I was also praised for my article submission being completely free of grammar and spelling issues, which I thought was odd given we'd had weeks to prepare it and, y'know, we were applying for a writing job. Didn't speak too highly of their standards. Anyway, after the whole day was done I went back home and eventually heard back from them saying I hadn't been successful. However, due to what I assume was a minor error on HR's part (yes, apparently even their HR e-mails need errata), the e-mail did include the salary offered to the successful applicant and my disappointment was suddenly overwritten with relief. The salary seemed to be near minimum wage, for a role that had listed experience in the field as highly desirable. I'm honestly not sure how I could have lived off it.

The thing that really annoys me is I'm sure at least half of the candidates at the interview wouldn't have taken the position if offered due to pay. We were all currently in other jobs, mostly in the same field, and other than one guy we were all in our mid-late 20s so it's not like we're trying to get our foot in the door for our first ever job. GW spent all that time, effort and money paying our travel expenses and going through the whole day-long interview process, when a simple indication of salary would have saved everyone all of that time and effort.
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

Sarouan wrote:
Yes, it's infuriating. And yes, very sadly, it's atrociously common in private companies around the world...Just ask how much were paid Mantic Games background writers / rule designers...or more "funny", how is paid their rule committee...

How much did Mantic pay their designer?
and how much does GW pays their playtester?
   
Made in gb
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Scotland, but nowhere near my rulebook

The bewildering thing on these stories is always wondering GW manage to hire people who aren't on the "creative" side of the business.

How do you hire IT guys? How do you hire people who run large pieces of industrial equipment? GW has a very big factory after all - "Knowledge of our worlds" quickly becomes a secondary factor compared to "knowledge of the correct procedures to avoid being mashed by several tonnes of machinery, and ability to demonstrate that to the Health and Safety Executive"

Sooner or later you run into the problem of having to hire people who know how to Do Very Specific Stuff.
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





 kodos wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
Yes, it's infuriating. And yes, very sadly, it's atrociously common in private companies around the world...Just ask how much were paid Mantic Games background writers / rule designers...or more "funny", how is paid their rule committee...

How much did Mantic pay their designer?
and how much does GW pays their playtester?


You tell me.

Funny you didn't mention the rule committee, indeed. You know how they are really "paid" for their work, don't you.

Just to say it's not GW the roots of the problem. But you'd rather close your eyes and think than if GW just disappeared, no other company would take its place and not use the same practices.

I say it's time for rule designer / background writers to unionize and defend their rights to be paid fairly. Defending their case alone and individually will always result in the same problem : you have less weight to negotiate.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/27 09:48:12


 
   
Made in gb
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM




United Kingdom

 Graphite wrote:
How do you hire IT guys?
This was a comment on the original (non-James) Twitter post:
I went for a job at GW in IT, wrote a letter, went through the whole interview and then at the end they asked my current salary and visibily flinched. What a waste of time that was.



 Graphite wrote:
Sooner or later you run into the problem of having to hire people who know how to Do Very Specific Stuff.
They apparently just bring contractors / sub-contractors in-house - they hired a few of the people trying to fix their ERP issues IIRC.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/07/27 09:54:03


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I also wouldn't be surprised if things like IT are afterthoughts for GW. They're caught between the creative part of the business and the out-of-touch higher-ups who probably think their friend's teenage son who's pretty smart with "computer stuff" can run their IT for them. I mean it's just turning it off then on again, right?
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

Sarouan wrote:
 kodos wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
Yes, it's infuriating. And yes, very sadly, it's atrociously common in private companies around the world...Just ask how much were paid Mantic Games background writers / rule designers...or more "funny", how is paid their rule committee...

How much did Mantic pay their designer?
and how much does GW pays their playtester?


You tell me.

you brought that up so I guessed you must have some details
because "others don't pay well either" does not help or add anything to the discussion

I don't know much that I could add here, I could guess that GW playtester get paid less than Mantic playtesters, but I don't have/know any details

you brought up Mantic so please share what you know about them
if you don't know anything about how much the they are paying why are you mentioning them in way that let people assume you know that they pay worse than GW?

Sarouan wrote:

Just to say it's not GW the roots of the problem.

with GW being the oldest among them and biggest one that could easily afford paying 3 times as much and would still have skyrocket profits
they are the root of the problem

Sarouan wrote:
I say it's time for rule designer / background writers to unionize and defend their rights to be paid fairly. Defending their case alone and individually will always result in the same problem : you have less weight to negotiate.

that's why most of them are freelancer and/or have their own company now
same is there are not many writers or artists left that work for a fixed payment per month for a big company but doing commissioned work
   
Made in gb
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM




United Kingdom

Slipspace wrote:
I also wouldn't be surprised if things like IT are afterthoughts for GW. They're caught between the creative part of the business and the out-of-touch higher-ups who probably think their friend's teenage son who's pretty smart with "computer stuff" can run their IT for them. I mean it's just turning it off then on again, right?
Well, one of the higher-ups wife got the contract to redesign the website a few years ago...
   
Made in gb
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Scotland, but nowhere near my rulebook

beast_gts wrote:
 Graphite wrote:
How do you hire IT guys?
This was a comment on the original (non-James) Twitter post:
I went for a job at GW in IT, wrote a letter, went through the whole interview and then at the end they asked my current salary and visibily flinched. What a waste of time that was.


Oh, I know. It's also not the first time I've heard the story, from other people - it almost seems to be the default for IT guys who go to work at GW.

My point is - they must hire SOMEBODY. Who?
   
Made in gb
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard







When do GW get hit with the old ransomware shindig?

That would put a dent in their profits...

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





 kodos wrote:

you brought that up so I guessed you must have some details
because "others don't pay well either" does not help or add anything to the discussion


Of course it does. Just ask Dungeon Saga's rule designer how much he was paid for his work with Mantic Games.

As for the rule committee...they basically do this in addition to their actual job. They're not paid an extra even though what they do add really to the community of their games. One left because he didn't have time anymore to invest in the rule committee.

And to me, that's as bad as James Hewitt's case.



if you don't know anything about how much the they are paying why are you mentioning them in way that let people assume you know that they pay worse than GW?


You don't seem to understand. The core issue here is not "being paid worse". It's "being paid fairly for their work". The purpose of my post was to point there is a problem of how much is paid such a position in all miniature game companies, and it's not solved by saying one company is worst than another.



with GW being the oldest among them and biggest one that could easily afford paying 3 times as much and would still have skyrocket profits
they are the root of the problem


No they're not.

Profits aren't the root. Budget allowance for worker salaries is. And it's not a question of company size...just the intent of the company to allow more budget for the salaries of their "base workers" rather than an imbalance elsewhere.

It's the perception of value of a specific category of workers and how much you can allow to pay them in comparison to, well simply how easy it is to recruit by giving that salary.

If there are still people going for that, why paying a higher salary ?

Which is why...


that's why most of them are freelancer and/or have their own company now
same is there are not many writers or artists left that work for a fixed payment per month for a big company but doing commissioned work


...this doesn't solve the problem either. It just means they are still alone to negotiate - if they ask for too high, company can just say "well I'll hire someone else that won't ask as much than you". You think you can be really picky as a freelancer to refuse any company in that field ? Especially if you're not that known or don't have that many relationships with those working in that sector.

And that is why we need worker unions. Banding together, understanding it's more benefitial to gather so that they have more weight and rise the salaries. Because the companies would then have a problem : against a union of workers not agreeing to work for less, they have more difficulties to hire people who will agree to that...

Individuality actually works in favor of companies. Because a guy alone will always be weaker than a group.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/07/27 10:31:13


 
   
Made in si
Ravenous Beast Form







 kodos wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
Yes, it's infuriating. And yes, very sadly, it's atrociously common in private companies around the world...Just ask how much were paid Mantic Games background writers / rule designers...or more "funny", how is paid their rule committee...

How much did Mantic pay their designer?
and how much does GW pays their playtester?


We know Mantic rules committees are run by volunteers. So are most recuitment programs that many miniature companies do.

One thing tho

mattjgilbert, former head of the RC, said at one time he's a volunteer because Mantic could never afford to match the pay in his day job... and yet now he works at Mantic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/27 10:37:39


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Sarouan wrote:

Just to say it's not GW the roots of the problem. But you'd rather close your eyes and think than if GW just disappeared, no other company would take its place and not use the same practices.

Pretty much all creative jobs are underpaid, everywhere in the world. Which doesn't change the fact that GW is a company with 150 million pound profit (pre-tax) last year, they CAN afford to pay their employees better.
   
Made in gb
Crafty Goblin




Nottingham, UK

tneva82 wrote:

They don't need top talent...

Rule writers are there to shift game imbalances so people buy new models. Improving game rules etc are irrelevant. They don¨t WANT talent there. With bad luck it would actually result in balanced game which would hurt sales big time.

Rules are just marketing tool. Models is what profits for GW


While I agree that they don't necessarily want top talent and innovation, I disagree with the idea that a good game designer would make the game balanced. A good game designer would see that the company's need is for an ever-changing meta, which means some level of imbalance is a) inevitable and b) desired.

And that's without even getting into the fact that AOS and 40k are inherently nigh-impossible to balance.
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





 lord_blackfang wrote:

mattjgilbert, former head of the RC, said at one time he's a volunteer because Mantic could never afford to match the pay in his day job... and yet now he works at Mantic.


Yes, that's what Mantic Games would surely say. Just like James got the same answer from GW's department about his payrise.

And now mattjgilbert indeed works at Mantic but not for the RC anymore.

Which is already telling something, you know : if he was paid fairly for it, I bet he would be considering still doing it.

That's the real point here.


Cronch wrote:
Sarouan wrote:

Just to say it's not GW the roots of the problem. But you'd rather close your eyes and think than if GW just disappeared, no other company would take its place and not use the same practices.

Pretty much all creative jobs are underpaid, everywhere in the world. Which doesn't change the fact that GW is a company with 150 million pound profit (pre-tax) last year, they CAN afford to pay their employees better.


There are always excuses not to raise salaries when you run a company. Though, I'll be curious to know what is Ronnie's pay in comparison to the rest of the employees at Mantic Games...but that, you won't have an answer from Mantic Games, most likely.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/27 10:46:01


 
   
Made in gb
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM




United Kingdom

 Graphite wrote:
My point is - they must hire SOMEBODY. Who?
My guess would be either young fanboys who don't know any better, or they actually pay industry rate when they have no other option (or they use contractors and charge a different budget).
   
 
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