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Made in au
Repentia Mistress




 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So if power creep isn't a thing, why aren't we allowed to compare the strength of 9th edition to 8th edition books when we are talking about balance?
Because we're really bad at doing so.

And it's honestly unfair to the game to compare 'trash Codex with a few good units' of pre SM 2.0 with today's 'most units can be taken in some kind of list without any feel bads', imo

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/04 03:44:14


   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Hmmm. I'd go further and say there's paradigm creep and points creep.

The Castellan wasn't a paradigm change - its just insanely powerful for 600 points. As we saw, a succession of nerfs and it ceased to be meta relevant. If it had initially been say 1200 points, even with the 3++, it wouldn't have had the same meta warping effect.

The Squigosaur does represent creep imo, because you wouldn't previously have been able to get this package at 145 points. It may not matter if its the "only" undercosted thing in the book - because your army is ultimately an aggregate of things. But if it isn't, and I can have a whole army at the 145 point "standard" and you have an entire army at the previous 195(?) point standard, I'm effectively playing with 2700 points to your 2000. Which unsurprisingly skews things massively in my favour. Historically most of 40k's balance problems have been because of this.

The 8th edition Necron book for instance came out just 1 month before the 8th edition Dark Eldar book. But most DE entries were pointed to move, while most Necron entries were a complete joke. They would require 25% point reductions in subsequent CAs to "vaguely" get near the standard (and many units remained awful even after that).

Its not as extreme as that obviously - but its where I think DE/Ad Mech are right now. I don't think they are a paradigm shift - its just that playing them is like playing a 2k points game with 2100-2200 points on the board. Unsurprisingly this tilts your win percentage up. I don't think "oh Raiders are busted" - although they are potentially a bit cheap. Its broader than that. In the context of all their rules, Incubi shouldn't be 16 points. Wyches shouldn't be 10. Wracks shouldn't be 8 etc. Cronos with DT shouldn't be 70-80 etc. It wouldn't matter as much if say one of these was above the bar - you'd just see it in every list - but when the whole army is, they just win everything. In many ways its fun because you can take 80% of the codex in your list - but equally its usually a sign of being undercosted.

I think a big issue for codex comparison though is that 9th edition armies get unique secondaries and 8th edition books do not. Points could probably be fixed everything else (i.e. a Marine in the index should have been "X". A Marine with 2 wounds, bolter discipline, hateful assault, combat doctrines and super doctrines should be "Y".) But secondaries are fundamental to the game. Obviously this depends on them actually being any good - compare say Oaths of the Moment to Codex Warfare - but still. I'm not sure you can easily identify a faction's "objective game" and then put it into points very easily beyond iterative rises and falls.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

Powercreep can exist even if it's slow and subtle.
You don't need to immediately warp the whole meta to be powercreep. Just a slow march upwards is still powercreep.

If you count upwards from 1, you'll eventually reach 100. You don't have to leap in 10s to do so.
   
Made in ie
Ruthless Rafkin





 kirotheavenger wrote:
Powercreep can exist even if it's slow and subtle.
You don't need to immediately warp the whole meta to be powercreep. Just a slow march upwards is still powercreep.

If you count upwards from 1, you'll eventually reach 100. You don't have to leap in 10s to do so.


This. The clue is in the name. Otherwise it would be called a power rush.


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Void__Dragon wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
7A at S8 Ap-2 D3


How? Are you assuming that they are World Eaters? Without factoring in the Beastboss on Squigosaur's clan traits? And as covered, the Khornate DP in Legions doesn't get +1 strength from charging.

Also, my guy, a Khornate Daemon Prince with a hellforged sword and a malefic talon with wings is 195 points.


Nope - I just tripped over the subtleties of the daemon prince from codex: daemons vs the daemon prince from codex: Chaos Space Marines. The Khorne prince from daemons gets +1A and +1S, and the prince from CSM gets Shock Assault.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh, here's an interesting comparison: Squigosaur Boss vs Harald Deathwolf, the 140pts Space Wolf special character.

Harald vs Squigosaur boss

Offense:

VS GEQ: 6.68 harald, 7.1 squigosaur
VS MEQ: 3.20 Harald, 3.90 squigosaur (Dead marines, not wounds)
VS VEQ: 3.62 Harald, 5.57 squigosaur
(The tougher the target, the bigger the advantage the squigosaur gets. Harald's damage drops if he's not on the charge/charged, goes up if he's on Assault Doctrine)

Harald's numbers on Assault Doctrine:

6.82 GEQ
4.66 MEQ
5.02 VEQ

Defense:

Boltguns to kill: 62 Harald, 27 Squigosaur
(Harald seems to be significantly tougher vs any "small arms" weapon)
Heavy Bolters to kill: 14 Harald, 13.5 Squigosaur
Lascannons to kill: 8.4 harald, 8.1 Squigosaur
(Harald seems to be roughly equivalently tough vs weapons that get a wound shift on him vs the squigosaur (S5, S6, S7))

Equivalences:

Both limited to 1 per detachment
Both have a 'top off' +1 to hit that keeps them on 2s vs a target that is -1 to hit

Advantage Harald:

-Combat Doctrines+Superdoctrine
-Always advances and charges, +1" to pile in/consolidate
-RR1s to hit for all CORE aura vs +1 to hit for only Beast Snagga Boyz, Kill Rig/Hunta Rig, Squighogs
-Extra LD9 Aura for Thunderwolf Cav and Fenrisian Wolves
-Outflank
-Has a bonus krak grenade for a tiny bit of extra damage

Advantage Squigosaur:

-Gets +1A on one of the turns he advance+Charges
-non-fixed wl trait, access to relics
-rerolls charges
-Can be any subfaction trait, while Harald is locked into one that doesnt benefit him much


This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/04 12:25:01


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
 
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