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Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Gert wrote:
How could a Space Marine ever move through environments like this?
Spoiler:

Or this?
Spoiler:

Seriously, it's like none of you have played the greatest 40k game of all time, Space Marine.
The game has you fight through trench works, civilian Habs, secret laboratories, and forge complexes. You fit through every single door you come across.


Yeah! let's design a game in which the main character can do nothing!

Then let's use that sorry excuse of a game in which a Space Marine operation is composed of three marines, one captain, one sergeant and one battle brother and call it representative of anything! Yeah!

So now a Space Marine company is composed of three person, two of which are officers? That's what that games tells us.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Read my post again.

No building on Earth is designed solely around average human height. Ever.

Ceiling height varies from era to era (I live in a Victorian building, so very high ceilings). And I’d love you to show me a military or commercial installation (of which hypothetical space stations would have to fall into) where they’re designed solely around “how difficult can we make it for someone of above average heigh to move about in”. Because you still need your clear corridors for maintenance and the movement of materiel.


Ok here's a very famous one:



It's the most famous system of Vietcong tunnels, the Cu Chi Tunnels. If you are even, US soldier size, this is going to be hell to fight inside. If you are 8 foot tall and almost 4 foot wide, you are just stuck. That's probably the standard setup for any Genestealer or chaos cult. Let's take it a bit further. 8 foot ceiling isn't all that rare in cheap buildings. It's more than enough for any human, but its too short of a Space Marine to fight effectively in such a scenario.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/12 19:03:59


 
   
Made in at
Regular Dakkanaut




 Da Boss wrote:
I love Space Marine. Awesome game and wonderful environmental design. But I also vastly preferred it when Space Marines were big, rather than gigantic, and I think 15 foot tall primarchs is absolutely ludicrous. Space Marine is DESIGNED for space marines. Obviously.

There are lots of areas in 40K where being that size would be a disadvantage. Smart opponents would take advantage of that. Marines would try to ensure battles were on favourable ground.

Saying there's no tight spaces for Marines in the 40K universe is weird to me.


Tbh it’s not that there are no tight spaces for Marines, clearly there are (e.g. in the underhives there’s places tight even for small humans).

It’s more that the places that Marines are designed to fight in tend to be large enough for them to do so.

Yeah they’re not going to manage to squeeze into tight spaces in the underhive or go room to room in a slum land hab block, but that’s not what Marines are [i]for[/]. Other forces do it better and if they did have to encounter those environments they’d probably just blow them up.

Marines are more for attacking military installations, or the demesnes of the ruling elite, or major industrial installations - all of which tend to be built on a rather grand scale that generally accommodates them.
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Please.

Please go and read the actual background and look at the associated artwork.

Please. Because “this one group did this once therefore you’re wrong” is kind of a valid, ish. But it also flies entirely in the face of the established architecture of the setting.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Please.

Please go and read the actual background and look at the associated artwork.

Please. Because “this one group did this once therefore you’re wrong” is kind of a valid, ish. But it also flies entirely in the face of the established architecture of the setting.


What you are looking at in the artwork isn't a realistic representation of the theatre of operation in 40K. You are looking at art. You are looking at the 40K equivalent of this



That's not how a battle between Alexander the Great and Darius looked like. It's not even how those people looked like. That's what an artistic representation of someone who knows of the event, but has never been there nor who was trying to make a pixel perfect representation of the event. It's mostly symbolic just like the picture bellow.



That's probably the sort of painting you would see in governors mansion.
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






 Da Boss wrote:
I love Space Marine. Awesome game and wonderful environmental design. But I also vastly preferred it when Space Marines were big, rather than gigantic, and I think 15 foot tall primarchs is absolutely ludicrous.

Firstborn Astartes are 8ft tall, the Primarchs were maybe a couple of heads taller meaning they would be at most 12ft tall.

Space Marine is DESIGNED for space marines. Obviously.

Yet it features environments not intended for Astartes use in-universe. Your point is invalid.

Saying there's no tight spaces for Marines in the 40K universe is weird to me.

Nobody is saying that.

epronovost wrote:
Yeah! let's design a game in which the main character can do nothing!

The environments are background accurate so either Astartes can fit in most Imperial designed spaces or the game flew in the face of every aspect of 40k background.

Then let's use that sorry excuse of a game in which a Space Marine operation is composed of three marines, one captain, one sergeant and one battle brother and call it representative of anything! Yeah!

Have you actually played the game? Literally, in the first mission, Titus contacts the rest of the 2nd Company who are deployed around the area surrounding Manufactorum Ajakis.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






epronovost wrote:
.
PS: You are two full feet smaller than a Space Marine. Back when they were 7 foot tall, they were more believable. Making them bigger was a mistake in my opinion. They went from very large, but still human-ish size to proper giants.
Thankfully Firstborn/True/Real Space Marines are still 7 ft. and another reason why Primaris are a poor addition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
I love Space Marine. Awesome game and wonderful environmental design. But I also vastly preferred it when Space Marines were big, rather than gigantic, and I think 15 foot tall primarchs is absolutely ludicrous.

Firstborn Astartes are 8ft tall, the

Canonically 7, as laid out by the Chaos Codex 6e, 7e

Edit: and 8th Ed.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/12 19:31:12


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Gert wrote:

Have you actually played the game? Literally, in the first mission, Titus contacts the rest of the 2nd Company who are deployed around the area surrounding Manufactorum Ajakis.


Yeah I did. You are a captain that operates largely alone during the entire game. Right there you have something that is both contradicted by the fluff and common sense. An officer's role is to lead troops not go all commando. You are playing a Space Marine not the Doomguy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/12 19:48:35


 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Did you listen to a single line of Leadros's dialogue where he consistently says Titus is disobeying and disregarding the Codex? There is literally a bloody meme for crying out loud.
Spoiler:

One of the reasons Titus is arrested is because of his constant violations of the Codex as well as handling a Chaos tainted device.
Go play the game again and come back with better arguments.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/12 19:54:31


 
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
That’s the Badger.

40k’s architecture is on a massive scale, regardless of species.


Citation needed.

Space Hulk features cramped corridors which Space Marines can only fit down in single file formation. That would create the situation I described earlier if the front terminator was killed. The bulk of their body would block the corridor for the terminators following behind.

Hired Gun features many parts where Space Marines could not traverse due to needing to travel through tight spaces, even if it also features wide open spaces.

Just because you have grand structures doesn't mean that the actual architecture inside is also big. Seriously, go into any old cathedral and you will have some stupidly low doorways to get into certain areas, no matter how grand the building is from the outside.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/12 20:00:36


The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Man if only there was consistent graphic evidence of Imperial architecture being large and open.
Would anyone like to acknowledge the fact that not a single person has argued Astartes can fit in every single crawl space in existence or would you like to find fringe examples and pretend they're the norm?
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




 Insectum7 wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vatsetis wrote:
I would just buy a WH+ suscription just to watch such feat in a webseries.
You can read about a similar scenario in Ian Watsons Space Marine novel. Marines have trouble in the tight corridors of an underground Squat facility.


Thanks Pal, finally I understand why the Squats were wiped from the setting.
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

Lord Zarkov wrote:

It’s more that the places that Marines are designed to fight in tend to be large enough for them to do so.


This means you can easily neutralise the Space Marines as any kind of useful lightning strike force through simple architectural decisions.

That is a pretty big flaw for a fighting force which people constantly justify as "they can drop in and take out the leader in his bunker before anyone can react". All said leader needs to do is have his ceilings and corridors be small enough that the Marines cannot teleport in and he is now safe from the most elite troops the Imperium has. And sure, the Space Marines could blow his bunker from orbit, but you know who else could do that? The bog standard Imperial Navy. So what exactly are Space Marines for? Special Forces are supposed to be able to operate anywhere, not just anywhere where they won't get stuck due to their impractical size.

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in ca
Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer



Ottawa

 Gert wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
I love Space Marine. Awesome game and wonderful environmental design. But I also vastly preferred it when Space Marines were big, rather than gigantic, and I think 15 foot tall primarchs is absolutely ludicrous.

Firstborn Astartes are 8ft tall, the Primarchs were maybe a couple of heads taller meaning they would be at most 12ft tall.

Yeah, definitely calling bullsh!t on that.

I strongly suspect a lot of the exaggeration about Marine size is related to expectations re: models and art. Players expect important characters to look impressive on the tabletop and in artwork, and therefore bigger. For example, the Emperor is portrayed as Primarch-sized, despite not being bioengineered himself.

In a practical sense, size has diminishing returns due to the laws of physics.


 Gert wrote:
Man if only there was consistent graphic evidence of Imperial architecture being large and open.

Some architecture, yes. Compare Roman public architecture that was built to impress (e.g. Colosseum, baths of Caracalla) with the ruins of insulae (apartment buildings) where common people actually lived. The latter were very cramped.

Likewise, 40k art tends to focus on the more impressive stuff.

.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/08/12 20:17:35


Cadians, Sisters of Battle (Valorous Heart), Drukhari (Obsidian Rose)

Read my Drukhari short stories: Chronicles of Commorragh 
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 Gert wrote:
Man if only there was consistent graphic evidence of Imperial architecture being large and open.
Would anyone like to acknowledge the fact that not a single person has argued Astartes can fit in every single crawl space in existence or would you like to find fringe examples and pretend they're the norm?


Considering investigating Space Hulks is one of the Space Marines' primary uses, them being too big to manoeuvre in the corridors where they will be fighting is a serious issue.

Point me to the artwork we have of the corridors of a Tau orbital defence station, or the corridors to travel about in an Ork Rok, or the corridors inside a Tyranid Hive ship (which would possibly be able to grow and shrink, like blood vessels, due to it being a living being).

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/08/12 20:16:47


The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Gert wrote:
Did you listen to a single line of Leadros's dialogue where he consistently says Titus is disobeying and disregarding the Codex? There is literally a bloody meme for crying out loud.
Spoiler:

One of the reasons Titus is arrested is because of his constant violations of the Codex as well as handling a Chaos tainted device.
Go play the game again and come back with better arguments.


Precisely. How could a Space Marine rise to the rank of Captain if he can't follow protocol or doesn't even understand the basic role of an officer. Are they perfectly indoctrinated killing machines (and the captain being the best out of a hundred of them) or are they not? No matter how you spin it. You need huge leaps of logic and ignore the setting a lot for the requirements of a first person shooter. Had you been the sole survivor of a deathwatch commando trying to accomplish his mission, the entire thing would have been more plausible, but they wanted Ultramarines for the brand recognition.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Well Terminators can navigate Space Hulks, so PA Marines shouldnt be an issue.

And Orks can grow pretty big, obviously, and they have to maneuver about their own vessels.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Da Boss wrote:I love Space Marine. Awesome game and wonderful environmental design. ...Space Marine is DESIGNED for space marines. Obviously.
Have you considered that nearly all of 40k is designed for Space Marines to be able to fight things?
Or, as I reply to epronovost:
epronovost wrote:Yeah! let's design a game in which the main character can do nothing!
And that's why Space Marines can fight everywhere - because the game world in both the lore and art has been built to allow that.

Because, like it or not, GW have decided that Space Marines (disproportionally to their faction size in-universe) are the main characters, and therefore have made a setting where their main characters are capable of showing up and being effective.

It's as simple as that.

Then let's use that sorry excuse of a game in which a Space Marine operation is composed of three marines, one captain, one sergeant and one battle brother and call it representative of anything! Yeah!

So now a Space Marine company is composed of three person, two of which are officers? That's what that games tells us.
Actually, the game explicitly says that it's *not* what a full company is, and actually makes a reason why the initial force is so small - the orbital cannon is preventing reinforcements, and the only troops in that first gunship were Titus, his second in command, and a trusted Battle Brother. That doesn't seem unreasonable. Hell, later on in the same game, we see more Space Marines join, in more force. the initial operation feels much more fitting with what Space Marines *do* - small scale operations that break the back of the main enemy force, to make it more manageable for other troops.

epronovost wrote:What you are looking at in the artwork isn't a realistic representation of the theatre of operation in 40K. You are looking at art.
I mean, *are* we?

If you hadn't noticed, all of 40k is fictional. So which art is representative of 40k, and which isn't? Why is the example you listed symbolic? What says that it can't be accurate?

Sounds like you're making a wee bit of an assumption and dismissing what fictional sources we all have.

epronovost wrote:
 Gert wrote:

Have you actually played the game? Literally, in the first mission, Titus contacts the rest of the 2nd Company who are deployed around the area surrounding Manufactorum Ajakis.


Yeah I did. You are a captain that operates largely alone during the entire game. Right there you have something that is both contradicted by the fluff and common sense. An officer's role is to lead troops not go all commando. You are playing a Space Marine not the Doomguy.
Tell that to Uriel Ventris, Aeonid Thiel, and Cato Sicarius, captains/officers with recorded examples of going all solo and commando.

What Titus does is hardly unusual for Space Marine protagonists. So much for "contradicted by the fluff", and since when was 40k a setting of common sense?


They/them

 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Insectum7 wrote:
Well Terminators can navigate Space Hulks, so PA Marines shouldnt be an issue.

And Orks can grow pretty big, obviously, and they have to maneuver about their own vessels.


I do agree on orks. They can be as big if not bigger than Primaris Marines. Navigating their ships should be fine. The same goes for Eldars who don't seem to enjoy tight corridors and cramped environment which negate their lethal mobility. They want the space to better kill you.
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





-Guardsman- wrote:In a practical sense, size has diminishing returns due to the laws of physics.
Of the many physics breaking issues in 40k, I wouldn't focus on Space Marine size.

A Town Called Malus wrote:Point me to the artwork we have of the corridors of a Tau orbital defence station
Wouldn't they need to account for Battlesuits and Kroot? Also, the Air Caste are rather remarkably tall, are they not?
or the corridors to travel about in an Ork Rok
Considering that Ork Nobs are larger than Space Marines, I'd have hoped that they can get through their own ships.
or the corridors inside a Tyranid Hive ship (which would possibly be able to grow and shrink, like blood vessels, due to it being a living being).
I do seem to remember some stories of Deathwatch operatives boarding Tyranid vessels - which are hazardous, but still boardable.

My counterpoint would be to show me artwork of Space Marines struggling to get through said environments.

epronovost wrote:How could a Space Marine rise to the rank of Captain if he can't follow protocol or doesn't even understand the basic role of an officer.
As I said above - tell that to Sicarius and Ventris.


They/them

 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






epronovost wrote:
Precisely. How could a Space Marine rise to the rank of Captain if he can't follow protocol or doesn't even understand the basic role of an officer. Are they perfectly indoctrinated killing machines (and the captain being the best out of a hundred of them) or are they not? No matter how you spin it. You need huge leaps of logic and ignore the setting a lot for the requirements of a first person shooter. Had you been the sole survivor of a deathwatch commando trying to accomplish his mission, the entire thing would have been more plausible, but they wanted Ultramarines for the brand recognition.

Because people change with time. The one thing that is made very clear about the Codex both within Space Marine and other media is that it is a set of guidelines, not hard and fast rules. In fact, the Codex specifically says not to follow the wording precisely so that enemies can't just perfectly counter every maneuver made. When Captains get to that rank they are already a veteran of the Chapter and know how to apply the Codex while not being predictable.
Field officers are often noted as creatively interpreting orders because the situation as it unfolds is never going to conform to the plans that are made, that's like combat 101. In the Ultramarines novels, Ventris is censured and sent on a Death Oath because he led a Deathwatch mission to kill a Tyranid Norn Queen. It was a tactically sound decision but because technically he broke the dictates of the Codex, he is punished. Just. Like. Titus.
Plus, Astartes officers don't fill the same roles as a modern officer would. They lead from the front.
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




But do un armored orks weight as much as armored marines? ... If there is gravity that can an important factor.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 A Town Called Malus wrote:
or the corridors inside a Tyranid Hive ship (which would possibly be able to grow and shrink, like blood vessels, due to it being a living being).
There was an entire game published specifically involving Space Marines boarding Tyranid vessels called Tyranid Attack (also Advanced Space Crusade). Tyranid Warriors are able to move about inside Tyranid ships, so Marines definitely can. It is noted in the literature that there are spaces within a Tyranid vessel that are very hazardous, or that Marines cannot move through because they are too tight.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in ca
Sybarite Swinging an Agonizer



Ottawa

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Of the many physics breaking issues in 40k, I wouldn't focus on Space Marine size.

True. Titan size is more of an issue. Giant walkers like Warlord titans could only possibly operate on low-grav worlds.


My counterpoint would be to show me artwork of Space Marines struggling to get through said environments.

Presumably their commanders are smart enough not to deploy them in places where their size is an issue. If a place is too cramped for Marines, they send in the Tempestus instead. Or they just flood the place with gas.

.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/12 20:41:59


Cadians, Sisters of Battle (Valorous Heart), Drukhari (Obsidian Rose)

Read my Drukhari short stories: Chronicles of Commorragh 
   
Made in gb
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Vatsetis wrote:
But do un armored orks weight as much as armored marines? ... If there is gravity that can an important factor.
In mega armour? You bet they do.

Plus, if we're going to bring gravity into this, shouldn't they just be floating around anyways? If we're being all "realistic" about this.


They/them

 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Vatsetis wrote:
But do un armored orks weight as much as armored marines? ... If there is gravity that can an important factor.
I'm not sure how much time a Mega-Nob spends outside of their armor, since another Ork could obviously just steal it for themselves. If Mega-Nobs can move about, Space Marines can.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





-Guardsman- wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Of the many physics breaking issues in 40k, I wouldn't focus on Space Marine size.

True. Titan size is more of an issue. Giant walkers like Warlord titans could only possibly operate on low-grav worlds.
Absolutely, if we were to assume that physics are anywhere near the same - I must come to the conclusion that they aren't.


They/them

 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
-Guardsman- wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Of the many physics breaking issues in 40k, I wouldn't focus on Space Marine size.

True. Titan size is more of an issue. Giant walkers like Warlord titans could only possibly operate on low-grav worlds.
Absolutely, if we were to assume that physics are anywhere near the same - I must come to the conclusion that they aren't.
Better to just assume that they have a way around it. If Titans can all have suspensors which aid in their weight distribution issues, then any problem is solved without breaking physics.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Gert wrote:

Plus, Astartes officers don't fill the same roles as a modern officer would. They lead from the front.


They fill the exact same role. A captain in the US army commands a combat unit that has around 60 to 200 soldiers. A Space Marine Captain commands roughly around the same number. They have the same job. They are field officers. You simply didn't knew that the job of captain was to command troops and that they command roughly the same number of troops. That's why they are captains and not some sort of commandos. A captain's job is akin to that of a "junior officer" in the Imperial Guard.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/12 21:05:29


 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




 Insectum7 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
-Guardsman- wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Of the many physics breaking issues in 40k, I wouldn't focus on Space Marine size.

True. Titan size is more of an issue. Giant walkers like Warlord titans could only possibly operate on low-grav worlds.
Absolutely, if we were to assume that physics are anywhere near the same - I must come to the conclusion that they aren't.
Better to just assume that they have a way around it. If Titans can all have suspensors which aid in their weight distribution issues, then any problem is solved without breaking physics.


Yep, after all the average Astartes is smarter than Batman, so they would surely have some sort of anti-grav belt everytime they needed, Im also pretty sure that they have a shark repelent as standard issue equipment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnFOs7QlJSI


I love my marines extra campy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/12 21:18:15


 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Insectum7 wrote:
Well Terminators can navigate Space Hulks, so PA Marines shouldnt be an issue.

And Orks can grow pretty big, obviously, and they have to maneuver about their own vessels.


this you can't tell me marines would have trouble manuvering about an Ork vessel when some Ork warbosses (you know the guys making the decisions) are the size of a dreadnought.

Hell Ghaz is bigger then gulliman.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
 
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