Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Its a fair a argument that a Spanner in Lootas and a Spanner in Burna Boyz really should be the same points. Which doesn't necessarily mean nerfing the Burna boys.

Its also I think a fair whinge that the spanner in both does nothing for the unit, and is only there because of GW's decision to mold the plastic that way.

I think they could be the same price if the whole unit is priced appropriately. 1-3 cheaper spanners in a unit of 8-12 lootas don't really have a significant impact. We're talking about -15 points (-5ppm per model) for the max squad maybe?

I think they are a bit overpriced though and I'd like lootas/spanners to be 13-15ppm.

I'm just glad I kept all those AOBR Big Shoota boyz since they are now required.

I have over 30 Lootaz.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I'm just glad I kept all those AOBR Big Shoota boyz since they are now required.

I have over 30 Lootaz.

Yeah, I'm using the very same models as my spanners with big shootas. Who on Earth gave big shootas to the actual spanners included in the lootas/burnaboyz kit??? Also considering that you can't even assemble it out of the box since left arm for big shoota/rokkit launcha guy is missing.

The real question I have for you guys is, in a competitive game/tournament, would you even consider taking Lootas? At the moment there isn't a scenario I would want them in.

I would guess in current metas, Lootas are not a competitive choice. Things may shake up as more books come out, or as metas change. Even then, I doubt they would be used.

SemperMortis wrote:
The real question I have for you guys is, in a competitive game/tournament, would you even consider taking Lootas? At the moment there isn't a scenario I would want them in.

Nope. It's a fun/crusade only unit for me. At 20 points/T4 they weren't even that.

Glad lootas bomb is gone. Too bad they're so mediocre. But I don't see a min squad or two breaking your game.

SemperMortis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Semper, what do you want exactly? What do you precieve lootas being able to do? And I won't accept "make them better" how many points of marines or whatever restrictions you want is a fair trade for them and what do they need to get there.

As others point out, comparing them to admech chickens isn't a good starting point as they're widely acknowledged as too efficient for the cost.

You often make complaints about ork units, they're often not the best units. But you also make these threads sound like GW burned your house down because it's not an S tier competitive unit. There is a grey area where they can be acceptable without being top of the pile, so where does that lay for you?

Alright lets break it down further than.

Chickenwalkers: 65pts 6 shots each, average 4 hits per turn. T6 6W 3+ save with ability to buff it to either a 2+ save or BS2+ for 5hits a turn.
Imperial Guard Heavy Weapons Squad: 50pts 6 shots, average 3 hits a turn T3 5+ save but also has 6 wounds over 3 models. As well as 3 ancillary lasguns.
Chaos Havoc: 125pts 8 shots, average 5.3 hits a turn. T5 3+ save, 5 wounds (soon to be 10).
Space Marines Suppressors: 100pts 9 shots, average 6 hits a turn. T4 6 wounds, 3+ save. Inherent ability to deny overwatch for this unit.
Lootas: 85pts 8 shots, 2.6 hits on average. T5 5 wounds 6+ save. Only inherent ability is 3 shots at half range.

Chickenwalkers are 1 hit per 16.25pts
Heavy Weapon Squads are 1 hit per 16.6pts
Havocs are 1 hit per 23.58pts
Suppressors are 1 hit per 16.6pts
Lootas are 1 hit per 32.69pts. But hey, if you get within half range it goes to 1 hit per 21.25pts.

On average, a loota at 25-48' range is literally 50% as effective as Chickenwalkers, HWS, and Suppressors. The only unit its remotely close to is Havocs who are still significantly better and a lot more durable and most importantly, haven't received their codex yet. I would like it if the unit which is SIGNIFICANTLY less durable be at least on par with their dmg potential. I know, its a lot to ask.

Neither Havocs nor Suppressors nor HWTs have:

-access to a shooty subfaction trait anywhere near as good as Freebootas is
-Move and shoot without penalty
-access to a cheap open-topped transport

You can bet your butt if GW made a kabalite drukhari unit with move-and-shoot 24" range autocannon profile weaponry on all squad members except the leader, they'd be pretty damn imbalanced if they weren't less efficient than every other autocannon-toting unit out there, even with the paper-thin comparatively kabalite defensive profile.

IMO GW doesn't 'hate" lootas, tankbustas, shoota boyz, flash gits or any ork shooty infantry - they just didnt want to make the same mistake they made with drukhari again and they got a little bit overcosted in comparison to buggies/flyers due to the existence of the BW/Trukk.

Not a huge deal. Easily fixable with a points bump up to buggies/flyers and a points bump down to shooty infantry. Until then, if you want to enjoy a nice balanced 50% wr book, supplement your infantry with the highly competitive, looks like approximately 65% wr-quality buggies and flyers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:
The real question I have for you guys is, in a competitive game/tournament, would you even consider taking Lootas? At the moment there isn't a scenario I would want them in.

Nope. Buggies/flyers are way way way too good to ever consider bringing....basically any ork infantry unit?

Havocs have move and shoot without penalty.

Edit: And Suppressors can get it from at least two super doctrines.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Havocs have move and shoot without penalty.

Edit: And Suppressors can get it from at least two super doctrines.

Fair on havocs -

oh wait, look, Havocs are also on the lower end of the list for damage output for the points, huh. It's almost like, being able to fire without penalty when you move into range to shoot your expensive heavy weapon infantry squad is a fairly large example, and the cases where GW doesn't properly value that ability (see codex: Drukhari) tend to result in rather disastrous consequences and one might even expect a similar unit or type of unit to overcorrect immediately after a large, public failure of balance with a unit with a similar use case.

It's almost, if you squint, like that's the most obvious potential explanation for why certain subsets of units are all somewhat underwhelming rather than a particular, personal bias by the games workshop rules team.

Oh look, what's that over there? Who's that lil' cutie poking his head over the old horizon, it's our good good friend "damage flat 2"! that thing GW consistently UNDERVALUED in 8th and appears to be steadily attempting to build counters and reduce the overall power of in 9th edition!

I wonder what a reasonable conclusion would be for why a unit that features two such overlapping things might end up undertuned? That's right kids, you guessed it...

"GW's rules writers hate that unit unfairly/probably hate me in particular because I like that unit and they are under my bed writing notes about the units I mumble about liking in my sleep."

Good job!

We all know GW's real hatred is saved for Killa Kans.

I’m just pointing out where you got info wrong.

I’m much more inclined to peg badly balanced units as incompetence or lack of caring than malice.

Tyel wrote:
We all know GW's real hatred is saved for Killa Kans.

no, no, you misunderstand, the gretchin units are units for FUN! And as we all know, nothing is more 'fun' than having no abilities, no special rules, auras that do essentially nothing, all while being incredibly expensive and costly to include in your list wait where are you going why aren't you playing with my fun units like possessed, spawn, metamorphs, obliterators, bubblechukkas, grots, killa kanz, death jesters, Shokk Attack Guns, Vespid, inquisition stuff, ogryns, etc etc etc.

man, I remember when "fun" units meant the old 2nd edition shokk attack gun table. Good times, good times.

Sometimes I think, that for some people, being a bad unit is the very core idea of what is fun.

Good is bad. Winning is not fun. The most important part of playing the game is having a well painted army and forging the narrative, and not actually playing the game. In fact the whole game is just a pretext to be around other people. Which I must say makes sense, in hindsight of the age poll.

 the_scotsman wrote:


Neither Havocs nor Suppressors nor HWTs have:

-access to a shooty subfaction trait anywhere near as good as Freebootas is
-Move and shoot without penalty
-access to a cheap open-topped transport

First off, most important to note, IG and Chaos have not received a 9th edition codex yet.

Imperial Guard have Cadian Kulture which gives them reroll 1s if they didn't move. Furthermore, if they didn't move and they have a 25pt Platoon Commander nearby, they get FULL re-rolls to hit. Freebootas is +1 to hit for lootas so they hit on 4s, Cadian is already hitting on 4s and now gets full re-rolls. I would argue they are very similar. 3 HWTs would get 4.5hits with this ability for 50pts, Freeboota lootas (3 of them for 51pts) would get 3 hits at 25+ and 4.5 at half range.

Bear with me if this is incorrect because I don't play Chaos, but they have access to "the Purge" subkulture which gives full re-rolls to hit against any unit that has suffered any wounds at all that turn. And on a unit which hits on 3+, I would say a re-roll to hit is pretty powerful.

For Marines, Dark Angels get +1 to hit if they don't move. I would argue this is at least comparable to +1 to hit if you kill another unit.

Havocs and Suppressors have move and shoot, Havocs get it naturally while suppressors have to use a Super Doctrine.

I'll gladly give you the no access to cheap open topped vehicles. But that is a durability buff rather than anything else, and those other factions can just as easy hunker down in Cover, the power armor units enjoying a 2+ save while the Guard get bumped to a 4+.

Yes, move and shoot is powerful, but Lootas didn't get JUST move and shoot. They got Move and shoot AND their weapon REQUIRES them to get within 24 to maximize its potential...while at the same time they took away advance and shoot for our units which makes sense.....just don't think about it.

And your list conveniently leaves out those Ad Mech Chicken Walkers which can do all of the above for significantly better price and durability wise than lootas, even when the lootas are placed in a trukk.

Would it really have been Ground breaking, or more importantly, game breaking to make Lootas Dakka (4)3 instead of (3)2? Would it have been game breaking to give them a mechanic that helped with morale so you could field them in large mobz? I don't believe it would have, and this was our new codex so we can't expect much more except our supplement which historically doesn't buff individual units all that much if at all.

Slightly off topic, but did anyone notice they are no longer available online on GW’s site (along with a large chunk of the ork range)? I’m speculating that lootas and burnas are going to be sold separately going forward. Anyone have other ideas?

Happens all the time. My guess is they are doing another repackaging.

My solution to make Lootas better/worth taking would be pretty simple. Their deffgun is basically a large metal frame/cage around them holding the ammo, gun, supporting it all, heck they even have helmets. Give them a 4+ armor save like the old ard boyz and suddenly they are probably worth thier points.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
My solution to make Lootas better/worth taking would be pretty simple. Their deffgun is basically a large metal frame/cage around them holding the ammo, gun, supporting it all, heck they even have helmets. Give them a 4+ armor save like the old ard boyz and suddenly they are probably worth thier points.

Definitely make them more competitive, but it does almost nothing to address their lack of dmg output. As I put above, ork Lootas right now are significantly worse point for point in dmg output.

SemperMortis wrote:
Definitely make them more competitive, but it does almost nothing to address their lack of dmg output. As I put above, ork Lootas right now are significantly worse point for point in dmg output.

People fail to realise that most competitive units right now have a "5 dmg / 100pts" damage output against their preferred targets. Lootas stand at 3.4 dmg / 100pts at long range and 5.2 dmg under 24" (vs Light vehicles). It's actually decent under 24". Unfortunately, their defensive profile is complete trash. They're glass cannons without cannons.

I think giving them a 4+ save and lowering their points to 15 would make them competitive, since it would make them some kind of balanced unit. Anything other than that and they will stay on the shelves until next codex comes out in 3 years.

SemperMortis wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
My solution to make Lootas better/worth taking would be pretty simple. Their deffgun is basically a large metal frame/cage around them holding the ammo, gun, supporting it all, heck they even have helmets. Give them a 4+ armor save like the old ard boyz and suddenly they are probably worth thier points.

Definitely make them more competitive, but it does almost nothing to address their lack of dmg output. As I put above, ork Lootas right now are significantly worse point for point in dmg output.

thier damage would be lower but currently they disappear when the opponent looks at them funny nd low leadership so lose a few and then one runs then you only have a couple left to deal with. (morale really is the biggest killer of orks right now vs a knowledgeable player) I am fine with a tradeoff of current damage being a bit low but them getting multiple rounds of shooting more likely vs mediocre shooting from a tissue paper unit that costs too much

 Nym wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Definitely make them more competitive, but it does almost nothing to address their lack of dmg output. As I put above, ork Lootas right now are significantly worse point for point in dmg output.

People fail to realise that most competitive units right now have a "5 dmg / 100pts" damage output against their preferred targets. Lootas stand at 3.4 dmg / 100pts at long range and 5.2 dmg under 24" (vs Light vehicles). It's actually decent under 24". Unfortunately, their defensive profile is complete trash. They're glass cannons without cannons.

I think giving them a 4+ save and lowering their points to 15 would make them competitive, since it would make them some kind of balanced unit. Anything other than that and they will stay on the shelves until next codex comes out in 3 years.

100pts of Lootas is 5 lootas and a spanner. At 25-48' range that is 10 shots, 3.33 hits and against T7 that is 1.665 wounds, against a 3+ save that works out to 1.665dmg, Against a 4+ save model that is 2.22dmg, against a 5+ armor unit that is 2.77....I have no idea where you are getting that 3.4dmg / 100pts from. At HALF range and below 1-24' range that is 15 shots, 5 hits, 2.5 wounds and against those same armor values its 2.5dmg, 3.33dmg and 4.16dmg Again, nowhere near that 5.2 you said. Also, that is me cheating a bit since 5 lootas and a Spanner is actually 102pts. But at the same time I didn't include the functionally useless Big shoota on the spanner.

btw, Eradicators are 50pts each with heavy rifles. Two of them work out to 4 shots , 2.66 hits and against T7 targets 1.78 wounds which in turn work out to 9.77dmg or at half range 13.3 And they aren't even spammed

SemperMortis wrote:
I have no idea where you are getting that 3.4dmg / 100pts from.

You might want to read my post again then. I said Light vehicles. T7 is not a Light vehicle.

T7 is a rhino/razorback, former AV11 in the front. Lootas used to be excellent in killing them when they had the AV system.


Are only former AV10 vehicles defined as "light" ones now?

In Dawn of war II game lootas were a unique HWT squad because they had an ability to conceal themselves when stationary to make ambushes on opponents.

Their lore is that they are greedy gits, who prefer looting to fighting, what if there was an ability to drop them within 9" of a vehicle (friendly or enemy) that died recently? This way, they'd always get to shoot first and be a somewhat unique.

 Blackie wrote:
T7 is a rhino/razorback, former AV11 in the front. Lootas used to be excellent in killing them when they had the AV system.

Are only former AV10 vehicles defined as "light" ones now?

Probably - if you are going to have light/medium/heavy.

The sad thing is that Lootas should be *exactly* the thing you point against buggies - but Ramshackle cripples their effectiveness.

They are not too bad versus DE raiders and Cronos, and say Ad Mech dogs+Ballistarii, especially if you can activate Freebooters....
But buggies just do it better. (Which could probably be the catchphrase of the Ork codex).

 Nym wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
I have no idea where you are getting that 3.4dmg / 100pts from.

You might want to read my post again then. I said Light vehicles. T7 is not a Light vehicle.

So what you meant was T6 models. Ok, 5 lootas and a spanner is 10 shots, 3.33 hits, against T4-6 its 2.22 wounds and against 3+ saves its 2.22dmg, Against 4+ its 2.96dmg and finally against 5+ armor its 3.7....so again, I have no idea where that 3.4 is coming from. At half range its 5 hits, 3.3 wounds and 3.3dmg, 4.4 and finally 5.5dmg against a 5+ armor save, so again, where is that 5.2dmg coming from?

And compare that to other NON-competitive options like the chickenwalker or the IG heavy Weapons teams. In the case of chickenwalkers, a unit of 1 is 65pts and averages 4 hits, and can self buff to 5 hits. So that unit of 1 model with T6 6 wounds and a 3+ save is able to match the dmg output of more than 100pts of lootas. And those aren't considered competitive.

Heavy weapons teams are 6 hits at all ranges and are spaced out over 6 heavy weapon teams who without buffs also out perform those lootas, even at half range. And THOSE aren't considered competitive in the slightest.

I don't think your metric is accurate nor correct. 5dmg per 100pts sounds great, but for a loota to even get to that point it has to be in half range and against T4-6 with a 5+ save. That is a very narrow band for a unit to be "good". And when you factor in durability, lootas are T5 (good) 1 wound (bad) and 6+ armor (really bad). For a unit with bad durability to be an effective fire platform it has to be a glass cannon or have some incredible buffs to hand out, like the aforementioned suppressors, but even then they would be a niche choice....like suppressors.

Here's a possible "fix" that comes to mind:

Lightin' dem Up: Lootas in this unit gain +1 to ranged attack rolls if their target is also being attacked by a Spanner from their own unit.

Gives Lootas a boost while also providing a purpose for the Spannas that GW wants to promote. And provides a tactical tradeoff for your choice of spanna's weapon--the more powerful options having a shorter range.

Just make them elite and 13ppm. Then remove the mandatory spanners tax. Only time lootas were great they were exactly that. Although S7 isn't quite as good as it used to be in 5th I think it should be enough. If it's not change their weapon's profile to Dakka 5/3.