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Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 Unit1126PLL wrote:
a_typical_hero wrote:
Just exchange the Imperium keyword with Chaos where necessary. Or add it. Whatever is working better for you and your play buddy.


Do we need to have another discussion about the "cult of officialdom?"

This same tactic could be used to turn GSC into Chaos Cultists/Mortal Renegades (swap Xenos for chaos and Tyranids for chosen chaos god, etc) but that never happens. Why? Well, if I rolled up to a campaign and said to the DM "I'm using my GSC as chaos cultists" or "I'm playing my CSM using the Space Marines codex" he will probably say no.

Two have said no to me so far, with the Chaos-cultists-as-GSC scenario.


oh.. nice

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen

What was their problem with "count as"?

Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






I'm trying not to be mean or rude about the whole Renegade Marines thing but to me, it just comes off as "I want all of this because it could happen in the background". It's basically just a homebrew ruleset, which in my experience, never ever work.
There has to be a balance between background and gameplay. Giving Renegades access to units and equipment from the SM Codex because they might just have turned isn't going to be good for balancing the other subfactions. What are the Legions getting to counterbalance the fact that Renegades got a bunch more stuff and got to keep units from CSM? Obviously, I'm not expecting a solution here but rather just showing the other side of the argument from a Legion player who gains nothing from this.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




a_typical_hero wrote:
What was their problem with "count as"?


Now I can't say for other people, but "counts as" here. Is someone buying a 3ed party model or sculpting their own. You can't plop down a GK army and inform your opponent that since today you are playing deathguard or 1ksons. People will just say no. 100% of times.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen

Karol wrote:
Now I can't say for other people, but "counts as" here. Is someone buying a 3ed party model or sculpting their own. You can't plop down a GK army and inform your opponent that since today you are playing deathguard or 1ksons. People will just say no. 100% of times.

I guess most people will say no, if the thing you want to "count as" got wildly different wargear from the model you are using, as your example of a GK Striker who wants to pose as a Plague Marine.

Chaos cultists for example fit perfectly for GSC troops. They look similar enough and come with the same wargear. Missing options can be converted. I would like to know the reason why someone would say no to this count as.

Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







a_typical_hero wrote:
What was their problem with "count as"?


It isn't counts-as if you change the keywords.

There's a whole slew of consequences to keyword changes (like <Chaos Characters> can summon Daemons, especially in narrative play). Some weapons and abilities become more effective against them (the examples given above) and some less effective (Ordo Xenos ability, Deathwatch stuff, Death to the False Emperor). The units you can bring in your Crusade roster change (allied Chaos Daemons vs. allied Tyranids vs. allied, say, any imperial faction).

Changing keywords is not a consequence-free choice, but at the same time, running SM as CSM (or GSC as Chaos Cult) is totally inadequate without changing the keywords (because those consequences in the first place are narrative ones; it makes perfect sense that a chaos cult would be able to summon daemons and be harmed worse by the Vengeance for Cadia stratagem).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/08 14:28:49


 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought




 Gert wrote:
I'm trying not to be mean or rude about the whole Renegade Marines thing but to me, it just comes off as "I want all of this because it could happen in the background". It's basically just a homebrew ruleset, which in my experience, never ever work.
There has to be a balance between background and gameplay. Giving Renegades access to units and equipment from the SM Codex because they might just have turned isn't going to be good for balancing the other subfactions. What are the Legions getting to counterbalance the fact that Renegades got a bunch more stuff and got to keep units from CSM? Obviously, I'm not expecting a solution here but rather just showing the other side of the argument from a Legion player who gains nothing from this.


As a renegade player who gained more or less nothing from faith and fury, what do I get for not having an extra warlord trait list, 2 pages of strats and page of relics? I gained nothing from the supplement level hands outs of the main legions.

Regards this suggestion, draw up a finite list of things to not give renegades, seems simple - no cult units, no lord of skulls, no heldrake, no forgefiends, no maulerfiends, no disco-lord, remove any direct correlation units found in the other codex (i.e. no point having raptors and assault marines, that can be an aesthetic choice). You're left with the more possessed looking units which don't require a daemon forge as a recently renegade chapter likely doesn't have one of those. From the marine side, take anything that doesn't have ostensibly complex tech. Leave the volkite and grav at home, limit the number of fliers carried over. Hell maybe include them with some kind of ramshackle rule where their guns can crap out but they're cheaper. Their main transports and vehicles don't pack in the second they get turned down by/leave the imperium but ammo and spares are a concern.

At no point have I advocated a pick and choose what you want from both for a super army. If you want to go down that route, why not force a 50% split of units in the army from each codex in each battlefield role.

Be creative rather than not getting past "but I can have it allll!!!!!!"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/08 14:46:04


 
   
Made in gb
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut




Southampton, UK

While I'd love a decent dedicated World Eaters book, my big worry is that they will be increasingly Flanderised, and GW's current mindset will mean they won't play nicely with the standard CSM book. So it'll be full of AxeLord BloodBuggerers or some such silliness, and I won't be able to use my Havocs or Vindicator or anything any more because they've got guns...
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought




Crispy78 wrote:
While I'd love a decent dedicated World Eaters book, my big worry is that they will be increasingly Flanderised, and GW's current mindset will mean they won't play nicely with the standard CSM book. So it'll be full of AxeLord BloodBuggerers or some such silliness, and I won't be able to use my Havocs or Vindicator or anything any more because they've got guns...


You've lost the psychic phase, where's the harm in losing the shooting phase too right?

I kind of agree here, I think they should lean into the marital prowess side of Khorne and remember that killing at range can be as satisfying to Khorne as an axe to the face can be. Evidence from the other books says they'll 100% go down the "everything is blooooooooood" melee route though.
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




Dudeface wrote:
Crispy78 wrote:
While I'd love a decent dedicated World Eaters book, my big worry is that they will be increasingly Flanderised, and GW's current mindset will mean they won't play nicely with the standard CSM book. So it'll be full of AxeLord BloodBuggerers or some such silliness, and I won't be able to use my Havocs or Vindicator or anything any more because they've got guns...


You've lost the psychic phase, where's the harm in losing the shooting phase too right?

I kind of agree here, I think they should lean into the marital prowess side of Khorne and remember that killing at range can be as satisfying to Khorne as an axe to the face can be. Evidence from the other books says they'll 100% go down the "everything is blooooooooood" melee route though.


Well, considering Khorne Daemons are the only ones' with a real shooty unit I wouldn't worry too much
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Crispy78 wrote:
While I'd love a decent dedicated World Eaters book, my big worry is that they will be increasingly Flanderised, and GW's current mindset will mean they won't play nicely with the standard CSM book. So it'll be full of AxeLord BloodBuggerers or some such silliness, and I won't be able to use my Havocs or Vindicator or anything any more because they've got guns...


You've lost the psychic phase, where's the harm in losing the shooting phase too right?

I kind of agree here, I think they should lean into the marital prowess side of Khorne and remember that killing at range can be as satisfying to Khorne as an axe to the face can be. Evidence from the other books says they'll 100% go down the "everything is blooooooooood" melee route though.


Well, considering Khorne Daemons are the only ones' with a real shooty unit I wouldn't worry too much


cries in slaaneshi soul grinders
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Dudeface wrote:
As a renegade player who gained more or less nothing from faith and fury, what do I get for not having an extra warlord trait list, 2 pages of strats and page of relics? I gained nothing from the supplement level hands outs of the main legions.

Vigilus 2 is where Renegades got their toys and they will undoubtedly be in the next Codex.

Regards this suggestion, draw up a finite list of things to not give renegades, seems simple - no cult units, no lord of skulls, no heldrake, no forgefiends, no maulerfiends, no disco-lord, remove any direct correlation units found in the other codex (i.e. no point having raptors and assault marines, that can be an aesthetic choice). You're left with the more possessed looking units which don't require a daemon forge as a recently renegade chapter likely doesn't have one of those.

At which point you're not really playing CSM anymore, you're playing SM with Possessed and Obliterators. Raptors and Havocs have similar units but they aren't just aesthetic differences or wargear lists.

From the marine side, take anything that doesn't have ostensibly complex tech. Leave the volkite and grav at home, limit the number of fliers carried over. Hell maybe include them with some kind of ramshackle rule where their guns can crap out but they're cheaper. Their main transports and vehicles don't pack in the second they get turned down by/leave the imperium but ammo and spares are a concern.

Again I'm trying not to be rude but this is going to be such a long lists of very specific restrictions that it would be far more hassle than it was worth. If we look at what factions have had given/taken away, thus far it's been things like:
- Dark Angels: Sternguard and Vanguard squads cannot be from the Dark Angels Chapter (or any of their Successors).
- Only units with the Mark of Khorne may be included in World Eaters Detachments. Additionally, WE may not take units with the <Psyker> Keyword.
It's units that are restricted not wargear choices.
The sort of thing you have in mind would only really be possible IMO as an agreed house rule.

Be creative rather than not getting past "but I can have it allll!!!!!!"

Creativity only goes so far and while the sentiment is there, the idea has many flaws and IMO would result in less people playing Renegade Chapters rather than more due to the complexity of it all.
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought




 Gert wrote:

Vigilus 2 is where Renegades got their toys and they will undoubtedly be in the next Codex.


But... I got significantly less than the legions and lost the best strat in the base book for... no return.


At which point you're not really playing CSM anymore, you're playing SM with Possessed and Obliterators. Raptors and Havocs have similar units but they aren't just aesthetic differences or wargear lists.


They're not far off and could have a hybrid profile. But you're getting it at last: they're not just csm with sm nor sm with csm, they're their own flavour.

Again I'm trying not to be rude but this is going to be such a long lists of very specific restrictions that it would be far more hassle than it was worth. If we look at what factions have had given/taken away, thus far it's been things like:
- Dark Angels: Sternguard and Vanguard squads cannot be from the Dark Angels Chapter (or any of their Successors).
- Only units with the Mark of Khorne may be included in World Eaters Detachments. Additionally, WE may not take units with the <Psyker> Keyword.
It's units that are restricted not wargear choices.
The sort of thing you have in mind would only really be possible IMO as an agreed house rule.


Im not even going to avoid being rude but this is a wishlist thread for chaos fixes. What did you expect to find in here?

You know they can print altered unit entries if they want in different books?

Creativity only goes so far and while the sentiment is there, the idea has many flaws and IMO would result in less people playing Renegade Chapters rather than more due to the complexity of it all.


How many renegade players do you think there are now? I'd wager it's a shockingly low number due to lack of representation and the legions getting all the toys.

I'm not asking people to let me do this now, just to clarify this is a wishlist suggestion for a future book to split out a confused aspect of chaos. They could print altered entries, they can print a list of reference pages, but if you find that complicated then I can't help, sorry.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







 Gert wrote:

At which point you're not really playing CSM anymore, you're playing SM with Possessed and Obliterators. Raptors and Havocs have similar units but they aren't just aesthetic differences or wargear lists.


So what? I don't understand why this is a bad thing. That's pretty much exactly what Renegades are.

Just remember they can't just use the SM dex, because the keywords need to change.
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Dudeface wrote:
But... I got significantly less than the legions and lost the best strat in the base book for... no return.

Renegades didn't get access to VotLW prior to Vigilus so you lost nothing and gained a relic, warlord trait, and some of the best subfaction rules for all CSM forces.

They're not far off and could have a hybrid profile. But you're getting it at last: they're not just csm with sm nor sm with csm, they're their own flavour.

SM with some extra CSM units is not its own flavour. It's SM with some CSM units. There's nothing unique about it, you're just cherry-picking units you want and then saying "ah see but the background says I should be able to do this", even though that's never been seen, at least to my knowledge.

Im not even going to avoid being rude but this is a wishlist thread for chaos fixes. What did you expect to find in here?

A discussion.

You know they can print altered unit entries if they want in different books?

Altered how? What's the difference between a Space Marine Captain and a Renegade Space Marine Captain? If the only difference between playing an Imperial Chapter and a Renegade one is the subfaction rules then why does there need to be a supplement? Just use the rules found in the SM Codex. If you want Daemon or Warp-based units then play CSM, there are similar enough units to Loyalist counterparts.
All I'm getting from this is that you are annoyed that because "Your Dudes" aren't particularly Chaos yet but still a bit Chaos and you can't use Loyalist units alongside Daemon units.

I'm not asking people to let me do this now, just to clarify this is a wishlist suggestion for a future book to split out a confused aspect of chaos.

That's cool and I'm having a discussion about it because I find the premise interesting but the implementation lacking. If you don't want people to disagree with your opinions then don't post on a public forum.

They could print altered entries, they can print a list of reference pages, but if you find that complicated then I can't help, sorry.

I would argue that having to use 2 Codexes that don't interact at all and then adding a Supplement on top of that makes the idea complicated but there was no need to be rude about it.


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So what? I don't understand why this is a bad thing. That's pretty much exactly what Renegades are.

Just remember they can't just use the SM dex, because the keywords need to change.

But it isn't. Renegade Chapters are a subset of CSM, and should therefore use the CSM rules. If you want to play a Chapter that turned to Chaos yesterday then you shouldn't have any Chaos units because the Chapter hasn't got there yet, at which point use the SM rules. If you want to do a specific scenario where your Chapter has just summoned a bunch of Daemons then write a custom scenario.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/08 17:41:04


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







You can't just use the SM rules for a recently turned chapter due to multiple examples I have already raised in this thread....
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought




 Gert wrote:
Spoiler:
Dudeface wrote:
But... I got significantly less than the legions and lost the best strat in the base book for... no return.

Renegades didn't get access to VotLW prior to Vigilus so you lost nothing and gained a relic, warlord trait, and some of the best subfaction rules for all CSM forces.

They're not far off and could have a hybrid profile. But you're getting it at last: they're not just csm with sm nor sm with csm, they're their own flavour.

SM with some extra CSM units is not its own flavour. It's SM with some CSM units. There's nothing unique about it, you're just cherry-picking units you want and then saying "ah see but the background says I should be able to do this", even though that's never been seen, at least to my knowledge.

Spoiler:

Im not even going to avoid being rude but this is a wishlist thread for chaos fixes. What did you expect to find in here?

A discussion.

You know they can print altered unit entries if they want in different books?

Altered how? What's the difference between a Space Marine Captain and a Renegade Space Marine Captain? If the only difference between playing an Imperial Chapter and a Renegade one is the subfaction rules then why does there need to be a supplement? Just use the rules found in the SM Codex. If you want Daemon or Warp-based units then play CSM, there are similar enough units to Loyalist counterparts.
All I'm getting from this is that you are annoyed that because "Your Dudes" aren't particularly Chaos yet but still a bit Chaos and you can't use Loyalist units alongside Daemon units.

I'm not asking people to let me do this now, just to clarify this is a wishlist suggestion for a future book to split out a confused aspect of chaos.

That's cool and I'm having a discussion about it because I find the premise interesting but the implementation lacking. If you don't want people to disagree with your opinions then don't post on a public forum.

They could print altered entries, they can print a list of reference pages, but if you find that complicated then I can't help, sorry.

I would argue that having to use 2 Codexes that don't interact at all and then adding a Supplement on top of that makes the idea complicated but there was no need to be rude about it.


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So what? I don't understand why this is a bad thing. That's pretty much exactly what Renegades are.

Just remember they can't just use the SM dex, because the keywords need to change.

But it isn't. Renegade Chapters are a subset of CSM, and should therefore use the CSM rules. If you want to play a Chapter that turned to Chaos yesterday then you shouldn't have any Chaos units because the Chapter hasn't got there yet, at which point use the SM rules. If you want to do a specific scenario where your Chapter has just summoned a bunch of Daemons then write a custom scenario.



Here are the Relictors: https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Relictors

Loyal marines who were judged for using chaos relics and chaos wargear, eventually declared traitors causing them to fight the inquisition, eventually fleeing into the eye of terror and throughout become more chaotic and feature more possessed.

They had rules in white dwarf 281 and 295 (UK editions), here's a slightly dodgy link to their rules if you were interested:

http://redelf.narod.ru/w40k/ia/w40k_ia_relic_0.html

Red corsairs were previously represented by using Loyalist marines models alongside chaos ones with the chaos codex. I'm pretty sure back in 3rd some other questionable chapters got rules as well.

Even in the modern day you have the fallen who use chaos datasheets in imperium armies and until recently referenced other publications.

These are not new ideas or executions.

Edit: the Cursed founding rules in 3rd also limit unit options and number to represent chapters shunned by the imperium. They have mutants and abominations added as units, can ally with Loyalist marines only but have to start in reserve.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/08 18:34:38


 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






My issue with recent renegades is that entire Chapters turning is really quite rare.

Individuals, squads, strike forces etc might depart. But an entire Chapter is rare.

We can also assume some level of violence during the event, at the very least a purging of still loyal elements.

If you don’t take a Techmarine with you? Who’s going to maintain your equipment? The Dark Mechanicum and other Chaos forces do nothing for free. There’s always a price.

If you did take a Techmarine with you? Where are you getting the raw materials from? You can’t easily stay put on your Chapter World after all. And if he’s given a Better Option? How do you hold onto them?

And this is why even those from the Heresy era favour more reliable, if not as deadly weapons.

The forces of Chaos aren’t often presented as cohesive military forces the way the Imperium is. They don’t have the set supply lines and back up etc they once had.

I suppose, if I may get politically tongue in cheek? Turning traitor is a bit like Brexit. You depart, and that stuffs up your supply chain.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought




 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
My issue with recent renegades is that entire Chapters turning is really quite rare.

Individuals, squads, strike forces etc might depart. But an entire Chapter is rare.

We can also assume some level of violence during the event, at the very least a purging of still loyal elements.

If you don’t take a Techmarine with you? Who’s going to maintain your equipment? The Dark Mechanicum and other Chaos forces do nothing for free. There’s always a price.

If you did take a Techmarine with you? Where are you getting the raw materials from? You can’t easily stay put on your Chapter World after all. And if he’s given a Better Option? How do you hold onto them?

And this is why even those from the Heresy era favour more reliable, if not as deadly weapons.

The forces of Chaos aren’t often presented as cohesive military forces the way the Imperium is. They don’t have the set supply lines and back up etc they once had.

I suppose, if I may get politically tongue in cheek? Turning traitor is a bit like Brexit. You depart, and that stuffs up your supply chain.


This exactly, hence a limited list of wargear options or special rules to reinforce the gear is a little shoddy wouldn't hurt. I agree about the whole chapter situation, it gets a little complicated outside of that, I wonder if a renegades unit or "recent traitors" unit could be a mor elegant way. It doesn't rule out some of the vehicles magically vanishing ofc, I can't imagine a Las-razorback is much harder to maintain than a Las-predator, same with hurricane bolters where appropriate.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




I also think that the chance that more then a few officers get offed durning the transition from loyalist to chaos. This may create very specific gaps in a company or chapter structure. What does one do, if the apothecarion members don't turn, and fight to the bitter end. And after a civil war the chapter ends up being 350-400 marines and no one with the higher training as apothecary or you have techmarines on your force, but no forge masters, so you can produce ammo, basic weapons , but no one alive on the force knows how to repair a dreadnought, grav engines or power coils on a macro cannon.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Now I think about it, perhaps this is a failing of the setting?

We’ve never really had a breakdown of a Chapter falling to Chaos.

Yes, there are the Astral Claws. But, they never really left their base of operations, and turned alongside various other Chapters - so not a great touchstone for Average.

So….give us that, too. In a novel or series of novels if needs be. It’s a fascinating topic so I’m up for it.

But one thing’s for sure. Unless it’s a large scale rebellion? You’re not making off with a great deal of stuff. There’s a distinct danger that when you make it to a safe harbour, you’ll just get mugged for your best gear.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




Honestly. GW needs to make Legion marines more powerful than Primaris. Why? 10k years of combat experience. But they should cost a bit more due to being marked and all. Perhaps chosen will fill this gap.

A normal CSM should also mirror the firstborn but be more expensive due to marks and such.

GW will never do this. It interrupts the power fantasy and bolter porn for which they have grown rich, pushing on young children. I figure the adult fans could handle lore accuracy. Maybe.

So, beyond this I will restate my desires....because.

A) Codex : Legions
Codex : Renegades
Supplement : Dark Mechanicus
Supplement : Traitor Guard.
Codex : Death Guard
Codex : Thousand Sons
Now I would like to see DG and TS folded into a large Legions codex. But that will never happen.

B) Stop adding demon engines and HQ models. We have more than enough. Fix what we have.
*note* We should get new Noise Marine minis because the current situation is bleh.

C) Redo old models. Bezerkers are 20 years old now? Maybe more.
If you are waiting for a Khorne demonkin book or a Emps Children codex then you are going to be waiting years. People were waiting for those things before 8th. Never happened.

D) Balance. No one liked us in 3.5. No one likes us now. Balance us against space marines to as close to 50/50 as possible. We are mirrors and the balance should reflect that.

E) Make the Hel Drake great again.
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






I’m always going to stand by that a Chaos Player should have the option to comprise their army of various Warbands, drawn from a variety of Chaos Codexes.

Now. Each of those Codexes would need to stand on its own two feet, so you could field your army solely from that Codex/Legion/Archetype. So this isn’t an argument for those to be light on the detail.

It could even be tied to a Keyword.

Example off the top of my head and hence I’ve not thought through before anyone criticises it?

You pick a Parent Codex (let’s say Thousand Sons). That’s your Overlord, and you have free reign of that Codex’s options. Perhaps a minimum percentage of points should be spent, perhaps not.

You can then add mini-formations, without burning CP to add in Warband stuff from other Codexes. However, you can only select units with the Warband Keyword. And perhaps for extra flavour, you can’t ally with rival gods (background cool isn’t necessarily tabletop cool).

Units with Warband would exclude say, Scarab Occult, Deathshroud etc - super rare stuff we might reasonably expect to be reserved for larger parties within that former Legion.

Each Warband HQ can have their own Warlord Trait.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Now I think about it, perhaps this is a failing of the setting?

We’ve never really had a breakdown of a Chapter falling to Chaos.

Yes, there are the Astral Claws. But, they never really left their base of operations, and turned alongside various other Chapters - so not a great touchstone for Average.

So….give us that, too. In a novel or series of novels if needs be. It’s a fascinating topic so I’m up for it.

But one thing’s for sure. Unless it’s a large scale rebellion? You’re not making off with a great deal of stuff. There’s a distinct danger that when you make it to a safe harbour, you’ll just get mugged for your best gear.


Codex Crimson Slaughter had a pretty detailed description how they turned to Chaos. I'm pretty sure the whole Chapter turned but it's been a while since I read that.
Also, hilariously their specialty were Drop pod assaults, even when they turned to Chaos. Which fits perfectly into this thread...
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






A good portion of the Chapter turned after they launched a crusade into the Eye of Terror, intent on purging it. 200 Astartes died before the schism and more died when the larger portion of the Chapter turned to Chaos. So they were probably sitting on around half strength but were already mutated and corrupted into Chaos Space Marines. Then Dark Vengeance happened, then Diomar(?), and finally Vigilus. GW set the Crimson Slaughter up as the premier 6th Ed Chaos faction then slaughtered them in every single campaign.
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought




Sgt. Cortez wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Now I think about it, perhaps this is a failing of the setting?

We’ve never really had a breakdown of a Chapter falling to Chaos.

Yes, there are the Astral Claws. But, they never really left their base of operations, and turned alongside various other Chapters - so not a great touchstone for Average.

So….give us that, too. In a novel or series of novels if needs be. It’s a fascinating topic so I’m up for it.

But one thing’s for sure. Unless it’s a large scale rebellion? You’re not making off with a great deal of stuff. There’s a distinct danger that when you make it to a safe harbour, you’ll just get mugged for your best gear.


Codex Crimson Slaughter had a pretty detailed description how they turned to Chaos. I'm pretty sure the whole Chapter turned but it's been a while since I read that.
Also, hilariously their specialty were Drop pod assaults, even when they turned to Chaos. Which fits perfectly into this thread...


Oh dear, I never understood why they didn't just let chaos have drop pods but after some of the discussion in here, I sort of see what happened.
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Chaos not using Imperial Drop Pods does make sense.

They’re kind of useless for raiding, because they’re a one way transport. Sure, they’ll get you planetside nice and fast and about as safely as one could hope.

But….unless you have the means and opportunity to go and recover them, let alone their contents? It’s just a resource sink. And if you have the resources to maintain recovery ships (like the Thunderhawk transport), just…put those resources into more formal, dedicated drop gun ships.

Drop Pods are basically fine if you’re fine with a One Way trip to wreck face, or are confident enough of a big enough victory to have the chance to recover them.

When you’re piratical and raiding? They’re just not practical or advantageous.

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Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought




 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Chaos not using Imperial Drop Pods does make sense.

They’re kind of useless for raiding, because they’re a one way transport. Sure, they’ll get you planetside nice and fast and about as safely as one could hope.

But….unless you have the means and opportunity to go and recover them, let alone their contents? It’s just a resource sink. And if you have the resources to maintain recovery ships (like the Thunderhawk transport), just…put those resources into more formal, dedicated drop gun ships.

Drop Pods are basically fine if you’re fine with a One Way trip to wreck face, or are confident enough of a big enough victory to have the chance to recover them.

When you’re piratical and raiding? They’re just not practical or advantageous.


If you're piratical they're essential for boarding actions, they'd be top of the list of things to maintain I'd imagine surely?
   
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Fixture of Dakka







You're thinking of boarding torpedoes, not drop pods.

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
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Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought




 Dysartes wrote:
You're thinking of boarding torpedoes, not drop pods.


Ahh yes, it's dreadclaws that double up for both sorry.
   
 
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