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Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





Honestly I'm just hopeful Carbines finally become useful as they should be. They're the weapon that they wanted to be useful as the midfield/shortfield weapon but I don't believe they've once been useful at all.
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Cobleskill

Nibbler wrote:
 carldooley wrote:
I played a couple introductory games against someone who got the recruit edition.
1st game was against necrons. I brought 250 points of Tau (FSE) and my all star unit was a unit of 3 crisis bodyguards with 2x Flamers and ATS with the Veteran Cadre strat.

The Str 5 T5 W3 profile and willingness to assault was comical tp behold. Especially when I was rolling 6d6 hits with the flamers in both shooting and overwatch.

You want a shaolin approach, give THAT unit a try, and try not to laugh at the expressions that you are going to get.


Why do you use "veteran cadre"? Auto-hit units do not profit that much from it, do they?


WS bump. Stupid, I know, but if I wasn't planning on CC, I could save 15 points by just using 'ui's instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Aenar wrote:
The more units, the better. Be them battlesuits, infantry or auxiliaries.
Any of them would definitely make me happy.

But ruling out any new unit release, the solution would be simple: allow JETPACK units to fall back and shoot like they did in 8th.
Tau are completely useless once tagged in melee. As a consequence, the Tau player castles up and tries to avoid that in any way, making it less fun for the opponent that either manages to make it into combat or gets shot off the board.
A Tau that is not completely useless once tagged in melee (because it can fall back and shoot with some units, in this case JETPACK ones) is a Tau that is not that afraid to be charged. Result: the opponent charges more easily (as the Tau would not go to the same lenght to prevent that), deals some damage, the Tau disengages and deals some damage too. Both players do stuff and accomplish something.

Right now it's a coin toss, either you charge in and win the game or you don't and get shot off the board.
There's no need to add complicated stuff like shooting into melee, just let some Tau units to fall back and shoot.


sounds like you want a riptide. a simple riptide with heavy burst cannon, SMS, with an ATS isn't going to lose much more than target choice in melee.
What I want to see is a return to the old markerlight rules. (oh and Veteran Cadre able to target ANY suit type. Imagine being able to give the BS bump to broadsides...)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/28 13:58:18


'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
Racerguy180 wrote:
rules come and go, models are forever...like herpes.
 
   
Made in it
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine





 carldooley wrote:

 Aenar wrote:
The more units, the better. Be them battlesuits, infantry or auxiliaries.
Any of them would definitely make me happy.

But ruling out any new unit release, the solution would be simple: allow JETPACK units to fall back and shoot like they did in 8th.
Tau are completely useless once tagged in melee. As a consequence, the Tau player castles up and tries to avoid that in any way, making it less fun for the opponent that either manages to make it into combat or gets shot off the board.
A Tau that is not completely useless once tagged in melee (because it can fall back and shoot with some units, in this case JETPACK ones) is a Tau that is not that afraid to be charged. Result: the opponent charges more easily (as the Tau would not go to the same lenght to prevent that), deals some damage, the Tau disengages and deals some damage too. Both players do stuff and accomplish something.

Right now it's a coin toss, either you charge in and win the game or you don't and get shot off the board.
There's no need to add complicated stuff like shooting into melee, just let some Tau units to fall back and shoot.


sounds like you want a riptide. a simple riptide with heavy burst cannon, SMS, with an ATS isn't going to lose much more than target choice in melee.
What I want to see is a return to the old markerlight rules. (oh and Veteran Cadre able to target ANY suit type. Imagine being able to give the BS bump to broadsides...)

Targey choice is literally everything there is against a competent player. Remove that and the faction is dead (as it currently is).


 
   
Made in us
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy




Wouldn't letting Tau Breacher's operate in melee, using their shortest range profile and shooting at their weapon skill be better? Hell, putting out a new Tau operative unit of "assault Troops" with Flamers and those Breacher weapons would be a good kit. Make them heavily armored Tau infantry with punishing close range firepower but still be bad in melee. They are not going to overpower that Ork in melee, that Guardsman is more proficient then them but they can make them pay for it.

Fluff it up with Veteran Firewarriors who are selected for the nerve as a means to protect the more vulnerable Pulse Rifle troops, they stand ahead of them, using their short ranged weapons and perhaps, area denial to cover withdrawals of the long ranged troops. Perhaps even give them suits inspired by the old model Stealth suits, so they can have heavier armor then normal firewarriors but still be non-battlesuit infantry.

They'd fulfill the area denial that Tau honestly need, without becoming super melee tau which they frankly are not good at. You could also pair their release with some new Aux troops who could specialize at melee. Tau were originally introduced as basically a Covenant type army, with Vespid and Kroot units alongside the mainline Tau. play into that.
   
Made in ca
Poisonous Kroot Headhunter





 ChiliPowderKeg wrote:
Tyel wrote:


I'd love to use my Kroot again with how I used to use them in 6th and 7th edition where I could outflank blobs of them anywhere I gosh darned pleased to put the screws on scrawny units camping on backfield objectives I'd otherwise never reach. Always made for a good surprise to take pressure off the rest of the army whenever they showed up. Too bad this whole 9" safety bubble business both murders the reliability in pulling this off and also puts them part way out of a job as the go-to for deployment zone pack filler.


I think the Krootox could be given a new lease on life if it could take armor instead of the big gun and be used as a "come and take it" type of unit to sit on markers. Not exactly a unit with renowned for skillfully erasing things in melee but a nuisance that'll likely more time than desired for the opponent to remove and it would also free the rest of your army to do stuff that isn't babysitting markers. I think Tau, as they unfortunately currently work, would benefit better from that than a new unit of lightly armor monk themed mini Aun'shis with silly martial arts gimmicks that would vanish as easily as most other Tau infantry do during the opponent's shooting phase.


I've actually been using my Kroot much to this effect in 9th so far. Instead of outflanking with them though, I just take advantage of their pre-game 7" move plus their 7" move, plus their advance shenanigans to just blitz them up the table to either grab an objective or attack something weak with a pack of hounds. I've got an old batch of Knarloc Riders and a Greater Knarloc that are great for this too.

As for the Krootox, they do have a stratagem that makes them each WS: 3+ A:4 S: 6 AP: -2 D: 2 for a turn, if you can actually get them into melee that is. I've actually been using them for sitting and holding down a backfield objective. Given their poor save, I expected them to get shot off the table pretty easily, but they tend to just get ignored. Even with only a 6+ save, the Tough 5 profile and 4 Wounds each means you have to dedicate a decent amount of small arms fire to take them down, and my opponents always seem to decide that other targets are more important.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/28 15:04:20


17210 4965 3235 5350 2936 2273 1176 2675
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Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




I don't think Tau need a monk style unit. What they do need are:

- Better alien auxiliaries: Give Kroots better rules and statlines. They should be the main melee focus for the army. More Vespid options for subversion, infiltration, assassination, etc. Maybe some Gue'vesa rules similar to GSC Brood Brothers.

- Make Crisis Suits Troops and keep Crisis Bodyguards Elites. Makes them a bit more interesting.

- Add some melee options to Suits. If you have 2 plasma rifles you get a plasma blade. If you have 2 fusion blasters you get a fusion blade.

- Bring back the hammerhead variants and lets have more cool hover tanks. I think Tau have enough mecha.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





ZebioLizard2 wrote:Honestly I'm just hopeful Carbines finally become useful as they should be. They're the weapon that they wanted to be useful as the midfield/shortfield weapon but I don't believe they've once been useful at all.

Were they more useful back in 4th and 5th when rapid fire meant you couldn't charge after shooting and pistols granted a bonus attack in the assault phase? I know tau notoriously loathe melee, but getting two extra attacks out of each fire warrior on the turn you charge might have been... reasonable enough to defend (though probably not optimal.) Did fire warriors have haywire grenades at that time?

Jarms48 wrote:I don't think Tau need a monk style unit. What they do need are:

- Better alien auxiliaries: Give Kroots better rules and statlines. They should be the main melee focus for the army. More Vespid options for subversion, infiltration, assassination, etc. Maybe some Gue'vesa rules similar to GSC Brood Brothers.

- Make Crisis Suits Troops and keep Crisis Bodyguards Elites. Makes them a bit more interesting.

- Add some melee options to Suits. If you have 2 plasma rifles you get a plasma blade. If you have 2 fusion blasters you get a fusion blade.

- Bring back the hammerhead variants and lets have more cool hover tanks. I think Tau have enough mecha.

I agree with a lot of that. I could take or leave the plasma/fusion blade thing. I'm not sure we need more hover tanks so much as we need our existing ones to work a bit better. The hammerhead's railgun should go back to being one of the scariest guns in the game not mounted on a titanic model. Maybe give devilfish a rule to let infantry disembark but not charge after its moved; marines figured out how to do it, so you'd think the dakka-only advanced tech faction would be able to work something out.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





I wanna go back to New Jersey

Wyldhunt wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:Honestly I'm just hopeful Carbines finally become useful as they should be. They're the weapon that they wanted to be useful as the midfield/shortfield weapon but I don't believe they've once been useful at all.

Were they more useful back in 4th and 5th when rapid fire meant you couldn't charge after shooting and pistols granted a bonus attack in the assault phase? I know tau notoriously loathe melee, but getting two extra attacks out of each fire warrior on the turn you charge might have been... reasonable enough to defend (though probably not optimal.) Did fire warriors have haywire grenades at that time?


Besides not charging after shooting the range of rapid fire weapons was always 12 inches if the unit moved; reducing the threat range of pulse rifle fire warriors from 30 if standing still to between 13 and 18 inches if they moved compared to the carbine fire warrior that always has a max threat range of 24 inches. Carbines also had the Pinning rule where, once on a blue moon, if they were actually shooting at a unit that didn't have good morale or a special rule to bypass morale tests they could cause that unit to get stuck in place for a turn.

They had EMP grenades at the time which gave you the chance to do a penetrating hit on a vehicle which could kill it on a 5 or 6 but it brought them from 10 points to 13 points a dude and everyone in the unit had to have them and there also existed suit commanders, suits, and especially broadsides which are a lot more consistent in performing anti-tank duties. Nevertheless though I don't think I saw any carbines on fire warriors in 5th edition since fire warriors were not too good at performing the tasks that troops choices were needed for at the time and the 30 inch range of the pulse rifle enabled the minimal use approach of having them sit on a backfield objective and throw potshots.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/29 03:47:43


bonbaonbardlements 
   
Made in de
Hungry Ghoul



Germany

Give us a non-named stealth suit commander option.

After that make the following happen:
-your Warlord is a XV8 Suit? -- Crisis Suits gain ObSec
-your Warlord is a XV2 (Stealth) Suit? -- Stealth Suits gain ObSec
-let Ghostkeels be three Suits per Slot (like carnifexes)
-rewrite the markerlight stuff
-improve BS of battlesuits (or give us a subsystem, that does that -- if that's the case, allow suits to take more subsystems
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Cobleskill

Nibbler wrote:
Give us a non-named stealth suit commander option.

After that make the following happen:
-your Warlord is a XV8 Suit? -- Crisis Suits gain ObSec
-your Warlord is a XV2 (Stealth) Suit? -- Stealth Suits gain ObSec
-let Ghostkeels be three Suits per Slot (like carnifexes)
-rewrite the markerlight stuff
-improve BS of battlesuits (or give us a subsystem, that does that -- if that's the case, allow suits to take more subsystems


support system that improves BS? We actually had one upon a time. Forget what it was called.

I've actually been a proponent of a different 'seniority progression' than other armies. our sergeants (shas'ui's and beyond) get more CC attacks. I would prefer something that supports Tau playstlye - shas'la have native BS3, shas'ui get native BS4, Shas'vre get native BS5, Shas'el get native BS6, Shas'o get native BS7. makes sense, no?

Or, with a rework of the markerlight table to an older system, bump the progression down a step with shas'la starting at 2.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/29 13:37:42


'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
Racerguy180 wrote:
rules come and go, models are forever...like herpes.
 
   
Made in de
Hungry Ghoul



Germany

I have to admit, I'm not getting your BS system there...
What do you mean by BS6 ?
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Nibbler wrote:
I have to admit, I'm not getting your BS system there...
What do you mean by BS6 ?

It's the old way of denoting BS.
BS6 prior to 8th ed was BS2+ today, except if you missed you get to try to hit again on a 6+ (or was it 5+?).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/30 08:29:28


What I have
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~1660

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Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in de
Hungry Ghoul



Germany

Thanks for the clarification...
entered in 3rd, but as it seems, I can't remember pretty well

Since that system is not longer in use, we can ignore this option, I think.
   
 
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