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I have actually had recasts that were better than FW, because the recaster had redesigned the kit so that small, fiddly pieces that never went together properly without a lot of filling and filing on the FW version simply came cast as one piece with the recast version.

Yeah, no thanks FW.

It would be interesting to know what percentage of supposed FW models out there are actually recasts. My guess would be at least half at this point, but I really have no idea.

I haven't bought any FW stuff since they switched to regional pricing a few years back. It's a real shame because they make some really nice kits. I'd have a pretty substantial Necromunda collection if I could justify their prices!

 Irkjoe wrote:
The ones buying recasts are doing it because it's cheap not because they have a superior quality...

Of course they're buying it because it's cheaper. Recasters charge a fraction of the absurd prices FW wants, and that's before you get into the illogical and insulting regional pricing issues. Doesn't change the fact that the quality from recasters that I've encountered has always been better than FW.

 Irkjoe wrote:
... and from what I've seen they probably shouldn't be building any resin miniatures to begin with.

And here comes the gatekeeping! Wooooo!

Actually, I personally know a number of people who have bought recasts not because of the price or the quality, but simply because it's been the only way to get certain models for a long time. They would have bought from GW if they could, but they couldn't, so they bought from someone who could deliver them the competitive edge they felt they needed.

I suspect a lot of the relic contemptors everybody has suddenly "found" in the last year since they became good fall into this category, given that the FW store has been sold out of most of them for most of that period.

How to not get people to buy your models in three easy steps.
1. Make them hideously overpriced.
2. Reduce quality control to an abstract concept
3. Make the models unavailable for purchase

You forgot the part where "Recasters buy them up in bulk to make their casts from, sometimes using stolen credit card information".

Because seriously. Where do you think they get the models from in the first place to make their casts? They aren't sculpting it themselves.

I have no idea if the 40K Gorgon I picked up on the second hand market is a recast or not.

I think it was original because it had the branded zip lock bags and needed a lot of hair dryer and/ or warm water starigtening of parts.

Irrespective of origin, the only reason I have it is because it wasn't the Forgeworld price.

I jumped out of Forgeworld buying after the Salamander Chimera kit (that long ago) due to the pricing or just not being inspired by the models.

 Kanluwen wrote:
...sometimes using stolen credit card information".

That's quite the allegation. Where can I read about this being verified?

 Kanluwen wrote:
You forgot the part where "Recasters buy them up in bulk to make their casts from, sometimes using stolen credit card information".

... this, and other incredible tales, on this week's "Amazing Stories".

 Kanluwen wrote:
Because seriously. Where do you think they get the models from in the first place to make their casts? They aren't sculpting it themselves.

Who was making the argument that they were?

angryboy2k wrote:

Quality control isn't about "picking out the bad items before they're shipped" (which tbh, Forge World was never that good at anyway) - it's actually about developing a process that produces fewer defects in the first place. Given my own defect rate from FW I'm of the opinion that they have no idea what a well-controlled process is and they do not deserve the money they charge for these products.

My inner Industrial Engineer is getting the warm fuzzies reading this. PREACH.

yukishiro1 wrote:

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
What does it matter, someone will ALLWAYS buy their stuff regardless of high price they go. They know it, and we know it.

This hasn't universally been true in the past. GW got themselves into financial trouble in the early to mid 2010s by raising the price of the hobby (both through price increases and points devaluations that required you to buy more miniatures) while delivering bad rulesets people didn't enjoy playing. WHFB actually died because of this. So it's not true that the community will simply absorb any price increase no matter what.

And in fact GW's response to that - which led to the huge growth they've seen since roughly 2017 - involved various things aimed at lowering the price of getting into the hobby - cheaper SC boxes, rules resets that simplified the game and thinned down the number of books and models you needed to play it, etc etc.

They've spent the last year or two backtracking, going back to the old model of squeezing more and more money out of the customer. It's worked so far, but that doesn't mean it'll work forever. Is this particular FW increase what's going to break the camel's back? Unlikely. But I do think we're getting pretty close to that point where the squeezing starts to be counterproductive.

Putting aside the possibility that this might be down to an increase in raw material costs necessitating a small price hike (though truly, none ofthe products I've been eyeballing for the past few weeks look to have changed in cost), I think its not unreasonable to assume that this price spiral is some sort of cyclical process governed by a confluence of internal and external factors (which are otherwise not entirely observable to the naked eye) and is bound to keep recurring. A lot of GWs behavior as of late is reminiscent of the Kirby era, which presents a market departure from GWs conduct through the last few years of the Rountree era. I don't think its unreasonable to see GW hit another plateau and have a soft pullback as another game rises up (Battletech seems to be the current favorite to benefit from this, ala Warmachine ~10-15 years ago), before reinitializing more community and consumer-friendly policies to win back momentum.

Taking in all this glorious conversation before mods come and exterminatus any talk of RECASTS.

I remember a time, 3-4ish years ago? When I had decided I was financially able to purchase directly from forgeworld, and began the process of selling off my recast tanks and dreadnoughts. I wanted to support GW/FW instead of recasters since I had the income to justify it. Then a week after I finished selling my stuff, FW jacked their prices SITEWIDE by 20-40%. Just randomly.

And then I bought some new recast tanks and dreadnoughts and felt like an absolute idiot for ever thinking that supporting a garbage company was a good idea.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Then a week after I finished selling my stuff, FW jacked their prices SITEWIDE by 20-40%.

But now you don't have to pay those super expensive currency conversion fees*! (/Forge World)







*That totally weren't expensive and were a fraction of the cost of shipping, which we still have to pay.

How about this: instead of supporting recasters or "mean old overcharging GW", go out and buy some 3d printed stuff (or buy the files and print it yourself if you have access to a 3d printer). Support artists who digitally sculpt some very nice "counts as" for your favorite models, and get cool models to play with on the TT. Lots of great alternative models out there, and only a total douchecanoe is going to refuse to play you if you use them, as long as it isn't obvious modelling for advantage or something.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Of course they're buying it because it's cheaper. Recasters charge a fraction of the absurd prices FW wants, and that's before you get into the illogical and insulting regional pricing issues. Doesn't change the fact that the quality from recasters that I've encountered has always been better than FW.

I have had the opposite experience, most of the time my fw has been ok while the recasts are a coin toss but generally lower quality. I find that they have thin, flaky parts and bad slippage. Wish I could post pics but I'm guessing that's against the rules.

And it's not gatekeeping that resin models are more involved and require a bit of skill to get together properly. They're advanced models not gaming pieces. You have to be able to correct a certain amount of casting issues.

I just want to say, I am happy FW exists, even if I can't afford the models, or even the re-casts. They do some cool stuff, and I can always model an alternate version to play with, which is part of the fun.

Love how every discussion on anything FW devolves into a quality of product and recasts are sooooo much better argument within the very first page.

FW's main problem is that they don't have the resources to keep up with demand. I think most of the problems people cite flow from that. That's not all their fault...they have a corporate master who controls the pursestrings and probably doesn't want to dump too much into that funny little division making miniatures in old-fashioned ways.

My beef with FW is that they seem to have the attention span of a squirrel. There's so little rhyme or reason to why they release what they do and when. We've heard recently from an ex-staffer that the boss was a total agent of chaos, and that's the most believable thing I've ever heard about FW's inner workings.

Oh...actually I do have another beef. It's with the US warehouse, which has brought us much higher prices with more expensive shipping on smaller orders and low to non-existent stock levels even when the ROW is amply supplied. There's been nothing good about it other than *slightly* faster shipping (again, when stuff is actually in stock). And they had the nerve to promote it like it was a good thing for customers. I don't like bashing them because I know they're a small shop within a big company, but it's been a BAD customer experience and whomever was in charge of the decisions around it needs to know that.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
@ beast_gts and Undead_Love-Machine: I learned from it that I order directly from Forgeworld if I want a to be sure that it is a Forgeworld original. I would still like to own a Gorgon heavy transport technically, but the price coupled with it not even being in the codex anymore is a bit disheartening.

I mean, it never has been in the Codex, as far as I'm aware - or is it not in the latest Index that was put out for the FW stuff?

Never in the codex, but it was always in the IA books since release. They put it to legends since the latest IA book.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
You forgot the part where "Recasters buy them up in bulk to make their casts from, sometimes using stolen credit card information".

... this, and other incredible tales, on this week's "Amazing Stories".

 Kanluwen wrote:
Because seriously. Where do you think they get the models from in the first place to make their casts? They aren't sculpting it themselves.

Who was making the argument that they were?

Those damn casters, coming over here, sculpting entirely original works with nothing but their talent and creativity, then using high quality industrial means of replication to sell them for a profit. *shakes fist.*

 ZergSmasher wrote:
How about this: instead of supporting recasters or "mean old overcharging GW", go out and buy some 3d printed stuff (or buy the files and print it yourself if you have access to a 3d printer). Support artists who digitally sculpt some very nice "counts as" for your favorite models, and get cool models to play with on the TT. Lots of great alternative models out there, and only a total douchecanoe is going to refuse to play you if you use them, as long as it isn't obvious modelling for advantage or something.

That's where my new 'Salamander Scout' tanks came from. £16 a shot for a 5 piece model. All I had to provide were the hull heavy bolters/ flamers and the autocannons which already lived in my bits box.

I have found Forge World to be good, last year I ordered:

1x Ta'uanar
1 of each back option for ta'uanar and 2 of every arm mounted options (took me a few months to wait for stock)
I have every option magnetised for my Ta'unar and the only thing had to fix a bit was my Heavy rail cannon wasn't straight but fixed with hot water and a hair dryer.
Overall great quality, no parts warped and no parts have that paper thin/transparent quality had seen in the past.

I also ordered:
9x XV9's with different weapon options
Plus:
Shas'o
a R'varna
a Y'vahra

Probably more but I can't remember (they were my big purchases for then that I can remember).

All were good, only thing was a hair dryer needed and sandpaper/scraper + hot water/soap and toothbrush (sigh I hate that part, but tbh putting models together and kit bashing is my favourite part).

I also ordered every Adeptus Titanicus option that was out (also this year, anything Adeptus Titanicus that comes out I get).

This year all I remember getting that is not AT is a Grey Knight Banisher (mostly plastic but the resin pieces are quality sculpts).

I have ordered a gak tonne from Forge World for years, only prob ever had was with some custodes weapons that were broken and (back when they did brass) a pack of Grey Knight/Inquisition upgrade some not defined/stamped, they sent me replacement packs instantly.

Great service and from what I have received, great quality.

I was looking and didn't see any price increases on anything I want, but if there are prob cause of inflation and covid. If it's a couple of dollars not a biggy. The thing I hate is the loss of so many things I want (as in not even on website anymore).

EDIT- Proviso: Every single thing I have ordered I use a little green stuff in one section or another (to make joints more flush or hold better or fill in a few gaps, sculpt some extra bits I want etc), I use green stuff though on all my models (plastic, resin or failcast) so I gather is just standard.

 catbarf wrote:

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
I’m making myself look bad by saying that, in general, recasts are not better quality than the original Forge World model?

From my experience, maybe not better, but on par, definitely.

Every FW order I've gotten has had serious mold lines, slippage, bubbles, flash, and occasionally broken parts as well. Meanwhile I've seen friends get recasts that were nearly flawless out of the box. FW's production quality reminds me of the lower end of garage kits, where they're using inadequate equipment and don't even have the decency to redo the failures. My last straw was a Vulture where the additional weapon mount sprues were so miscast that they couldn't be used as spacers to properly position the mounts as intended.

I am no longer giving GW any money for FW products. I'm now either 3D printing or buying secondhand.

Same. Last (complete) FW model I bought (if you want to be absolutely pedantic the last FW thing I bought was some Dreadnought arms a few years back...) was the Storm Eagle. After wrestling with it, tying it up with cable ties and literally dunking it in hot water to get that fething hull to align properly, I said never again.

Those Russian (I'd heistate to call them recasters, but that is a part of what they are doing) that mash up several FW kits into cool Chaos vehicles do a far better job that anything I've got from FW. That Nurgle Leviathan that did the rounds a few years back is simply awesome with no defects on it at all.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
I’m making myself look bad by saying that, in general, recasts are not better quality than the original Forge World model?

From my experience, maybe not better, but on par, definitely.

Every FW order I've gotten has had serious mold lines, slippage, bubbles, flash, and occasionally broken parts as well. Meanwhile I've seen friends get recasts that were nearly flawless out of the box. FW's production quality reminds me of the lower end of garage kits, where they're using inadequate equipment and don't even have the decency to redo the failures. My last straw was a Vulture where the additional weapon mount sprues were so miscast that they couldn't be used as spacers to properly position the mounts as intended.

I am no longer giving GW any money for FW products. I'm now either 3D printing or buying secondhand.

Same. Last (complete) FW model I bought (if you want to be absolutely pedantic the last FW thing I bought was some Dreadnought arms a few years back...) was the Storm Eagle. After wrestling with it, tying it up with cable ties and literally dunking it in hot water to get that fething hull to align properly, I said never again.

Those Russian (I'd heistate to call them recasters, but that is a part of what they are doing) that mash up several FW kits into cool Chaos vehicles do a far better job that anything I've got from FW. That Nurgle Leviathan that did the rounds a few years back is simply awesome with no defects on it at all.

I honestly have not had that problem (with mold lines, is the same as any plastic kit bought from GW, Resin is actually easier, I find if I push with a fine file on say a strut or mould segment that is in resin it will fall off and a light sand will hide it). The not aligning correctly, I have had that as well but is easy fix with some shaving and green stuff (I find that on a lot of bigger models, from any company, it is part of the challenge).

It depends honestly where you think your money is better spent.

For me, I take it that GW/FW have to spend a lot of money on background, promotion, design, rules and then production (the last cost is the least). I don't mind spending more on the latter so that they spend more on the former. Maybe someone can take their idea and run with it and make it better, but if I don't support the initial idea, then that will get snuffed out and we all end up with nothing.

Just my opinion, I like the FW options that I have bought (not saying all are great, heard horrors about the mastodon...), but I think from what I have bought so far over the many years, it has been worth it.

(I have bought mainly: Some Tau, All Custodes, All Inquisition, Some Space Marines, All AT & Most Necro).

Spectral Ceramite wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
I’m making myself look bad by saying that, in general, recasts are not better quality than the original Forge World model?

From my experience, maybe not better, but on par, definitely.

Every FW order I've gotten has had serious mold lines, slippage, bubbles, flash, and occasionally broken parts as well. Meanwhile I've seen friends get recasts that were nearly flawless out of the box. FW's production quality reminds me of the lower end of garage kits, where they're using inadequate equipment and don't even have the decency to redo the failures. My last straw was a Vulture where the additional weapon mount sprues were so miscast that they couldn't be used as spacers to properly position the mounts as intended.

I am no longer giving GW any money for FW products. I'm now either 3D printing or buying secondhand.

Same. Last (complete) FW model I bought (if you want to be absolutely pedantic the last FW thing I bought was some Dreadnought arms a few years back...) was the Storm Eagle. After wrestling with it, tying it up with cable ties and literally dunking it in hot water to get that fething hull to align properly, I said never again.

Those Russian (I'd heistate to call them recasters, but that is a part of what they are doing) that mash up several FW kits into cool Chaos vehicles do a far better job that anything I've got from FW. That Nurgle Leviathan that did the rounds a few years back is simply awesome with no defects on it at all.

For me, I take it that GW/FW have to spend a lot of money on background, promotion, design, rules and then production (the last cost is the least)

Not that you'd be able to tell, most of the time.

FWIW, the FW stuff I've ordered recently has been fine in terms of quality. I haven't had many issues with that over the years. I think I've had more problems related to their packing than their casting.

Maybe some folks get an unending horror show of mold slips and such, but not me. My beefs lie elsewhere, as I described.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimtuff wrote:
Same. Last (complete) FW model I bought (if you want to be absolutely pedantic the last FW thing I bought was some Dreadnought arms a few years back...) was the Storm Eagle. After wrestling with it, tying it up with cable ties and literally dunking it in hot water to get that fething hull to align properly, I said never again.

To some degree, that is how it goes with the resin/plastic kits, and you'd find the same thing if the resin parts were bought from a recaster. There will probably be some slight distortion in the resin that will make it not align perfectly to the more precise plastic components. The alignment could even be worse in the case of a recast due to its nature. Your kit may have been an exceptional disaster, I dunno. But to me, some of the issues with kits like the Storm Eagle are almost more with the design/how they were conceived. They were almost created to be a challenge, which isn't a good customer experience for everyone.