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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Heavy dice rolling with little outcome is boring. It has little to do with competitiveness.

This is the pinnacle for Thousand Sons, in my opinion. CSM 3.5 was the only other "interesting" book, because you could take a LoC and spend a gakload of points of sorcerers.

   
Made in us
Waaagh! Warbiker





It usually did amount to quite a bit. I do think that tsons being seperate is a little silly, I think just having them be part of standard cam makes more sense.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in ca
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:

Heavy dice rolling really only affects comp stuff with chess clocks. And it’s random and wacky, way more fitting of orks than gakky rapidfire. Now thousand sons may be unique, but I bet you I could do some way more fun things with em in previous editions. Competitive balance just makes games blander, it’s a given. I used to enjoy playing Mordhau but comp centric balance has really brought it down.

Honestly I think 40k should take more influence from gorkamorka, you can’t really even feasibly do that competitively, which makes it a blast to play since you don’t get the gitz you find in tourneys.


I'm saying this with a purely casual opinion : feth the old DDD. It made games drag on for so long for marginal benefits. If 40k was Alternating activations so i could actually do something between the volleys of DDD shooting it would be more bearable, but making my opponent's turns even longer than they already are just made me feel miserable. (doesnt help that orks have pretty active Movement, shooting AND fight phases).

And i didnt play pre-8th but Thousand sons now feel much more fun and unique than they did before. The new codex is a blast to play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Heavy dice rolling with little outcome is boring. It has little to do with competitiveness.

This is the pinnacle for Thousand Sons, in my opinion. CSM 3.5 was the only other "interesting" book, because you could take a LoC and spend a gakload of points of sorcerers.


Agreed, Thousand sons now finally feel like an actual cabal of sorcerers controlling their dusty brothers. The codex is also pretty simple compared to stuff like Admech/Drukhari/Sisters, right now its the complexity i think GW should keep aiming for.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/13 17:35:46


Admech Lucius
Drukhari
Craftworld Yme-Loc
Thousand sons
Tzeentch Demons
Slaanesh Demons
Night Lords
Imperial knights

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 VladimirHerzog wrote:
The codex is also pretty simple compared to stuff like Admech/Drukhari/Sisters, right now its the complexity i think GW should keep aiming for.


I would agree with this though I think those layers are sort of what helps make T3 armies work. Admech just went way over the top with it.

   
Made in us
Waaagh! Warbiker





Old dakka had some pretty non marginal benefits. Sluggas n the like did get a pretty good boost, they’re just bad to begin with. Dakka on something like a kmb or rokkit though turned battles in my favor many times. Why the desire to go so fast too, I usually liked to take those times when I’m picking out my fives to chat with my opponent or joke around.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Daedalus81 wrote:
Heavy dice rolling with little outcome is boring. It has little to do with competitiveness.

This is the pinnacle for Thousand Sons, in my opinion. CSM 3.5 was the only other "interesting" book, because you could take a LoC and spend a gakload of points of sorcerers.


See, I'm of two minds here.

On one hand, it is cool that I can finally customize my Exalted Sorcerors enough to make the amazingly diverse kit worth it. Is it annoying that I have to do it by loading weird, vague adjectives onto the unit to alter their stats instead of a straightforward method? Yes. Am I going to begrude the poor sap laboring under GW's asinine legal department rules that? No, its ok, hes working with what hes got.

what gets frustrating is when I organize a game with a friend who I know isn't going super hard in terms of competitive craziness, and we want to have an old-school grudge match Thousand Sons vs Space Wolves battle, we put down our gorgeous 100% painted armies, we set up a snow world table, we decide on a custom mission where the Thousand Sons are trying to open up portals to the warp and the Space Wolves are trying to stop them, and then when we sit down to actually play the game, it plays out like this:

-the space wolves roll to go first. A long fang squad drop pods in with a super-super casual Heavy Bolter/Multi-melta/Lascannon/Missile Launcher configuration, the squad sergeant hands +1 to hit to the single multi-melta, they pop a stratagem to ignore to-hit mods so they can move and shoot heavy weapons (rendering any usage of the Smokescreen stratagem also pointless) and they instantly one-round the most expensive vehicle on the board, my lone Predator, first shooting attack of the game. The rest of the space wolves move up, nothing else much happens because both of us are using mostly oldschool rhino-rush list setups.

- One squad of rubrics hops out of a rhino, gets prescience'd and easily blows away both the devastator squad and 3/5 of the members of a blood claw squad that came in on the same pod but had nothing to charge at. My heldrake drops into hover, shoots across no mans land and kills 1 minor character (a lieutenant, or equivalent I think) and then charges a librarian, instantly wipes him out too to secure an objective.

-Thunderwolves roll into the exposed rubric squad, killing them all. The two remaining blood claws swing around a building and get to some cultists hanging on an objective, killing like 7/10 of them after morale. A dreadnought charges the heldrake, kills it. A squad of blood claws hops out, kills a rhino, can't swing around enough to insta-kill the squad though so they get out.

-The squad whose rhino got destroyed gets buffed, kills the blood claws, two of my sorcerors drop all the mortal wound powers into the dreadnought, kill it, my terminators drop in, leave one thunderwolf alive

top of turn 3, my opponent is working with 1 thunderwolf, 2 blood claws, a jump pack chaplain, a drop pod, and two rhinos. Game's done! we basically just had him use the dregs to kill whatever he could which IIRC was basically the two sorcerors. What about the mission we wrote up? Eh, didnt matter, everything just fething died, like it always does, by turn 3.

Now, I understand that there are actions I could have taken to, for example, set my cultist squad up carefully screening out the tank so the one multi-melta would have not basically insta-killed it and it might have escaped that single shooting attack with 2-3 wounds. My opponent could have not blown his blood claw squad killing a rhino, or he could have made sure to keep the dreadnought near the two HQs in his territory so that the dread could have intervened on the helldrake and avenged the two HQs right then, instead of on his following turn.

But here's the thing: In a casual, narrative game, the stakes being set to 'if you make one single bad move, if you misposition by a fething MILLIMETER so your opponent can draw LOS, or get a deep striker in unscreened, or sneak a multi-melta into melta range, or you miscalculate the movement required to fully wrap a transport with your pile-in and consolidate, you will IMMEDIATELY lose whatever 150-250 points of models you made the mistake with' sucks. It sucks so, so much ass, because even if youre very very purposefully trying to bring soft, friendly units, and construct a fun scenario, once you get into the game you just cant. You can't decide "oh, what if this character fought that character, won't this make an exciting matchup?" because you know, going in, if your character is charging? The target is probably just gonna die. Between buffed offensive stats, stratagems, auras, and various and sundry bonuses, it is so trivial to stack up buffs onto a unit to turn it into just an absolute damage hose - a simple 10-squad of rubrics hops out of a rhino and goes 'OK, here's 19 shots, hitting on 2s rerollable, wounding on 2s because we got the buffed strength from the infernal master and we used the strat for +1 to wound, AP-2 so youre saving on 5s oh and also the now 5 shots at S6 Ap-3 from our soulreaper cannon that's another 2 dead, your unit is basically smoking boots now.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Old dakka had some pretty non marginal benefits. Sluggas n the like did get a pretty good boost, they’re just bad to begin with. Dakka on something like a kmb or rokkit though turned battles in my favor many times. Why the desire to go so fast too, I usually liked to take those times when I’m picking out my fives to chat with my opponent or joke around.
Old Dakka had a 1/18 chance (assuming a 5+ to-hit) of doing anything on any given shot.

It was a lot of dice rolling for not much happening.

Wasting time is not fun-for me, at least.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






I'm all for time saving. Don't get me wrong, having a big pile of dice and drowning the table in it is fun but then you have to sort those dice and that isn't fun. Events (comp or not) also have to run on a clock so the less time wasted is better and reduces the chance of running out of time to play a game.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Yeah im on team 'old DDD was a cute concept that failed in execution.'

My personal take was 'make it cause 2 hits on a 6 to reduce the booty-blasting orks get from -1 to hit effects' but they went the route of 'just make every ork shooting weapon stronger' which is...fine. I do really really hate the way new dakka type plays tho, it makes ork shooting units which should be the faction sprinting forward firing with wild abandon into the most conservative, careful shooting army in the game.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Spoiler:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Heavy dice rolling with little outcome is boring. It has little to do with competitiveness.

This is the pinnacle for Thousand Sons, in my opinion. CSM 3.5 was the only other "interesting" book, because you could take a LoC and spend a gakload of points of sorcerers.


See, I'm of two minds here.

On one hand, it is cool that I can finally customize my Exalted Sorcerors enough to make the amazingly diverse kit worth it. Is it annoying that I have to do it by loading weird, vague adjectives onto the unit to alter their stats instead of a straightforward method? Yes. Am I going to begrude the poor sap laboring under GW's asinine legal department rules that? No, its ok, hes working with what hes got.

what gets frustrating is when I organize a game with a friend who I know isn't going super hard in terms of competitive craziness, and we want to have an old-school grudge match Thousand Sons vs Space Wolves battle, we put down our gorgeous 100% painted armies, we set up a snow world table, we decide on a custom mission where the Thousand Sons are trying to open up portals to the warp and the Space Wolves are trying to stop them, and then when we sit down to actually play the game, it plays out like this:

-the space wolves roll to go first. A long fang squad drop pods in with a super-super casual Heavy Bolter/Multi-melta/Lascannon/Missile Launcher configuration, the squad sergeant hands +1 to hit to the single multi-melta, they pop a stratagem to ignore to-hit mods so they can move and shoot heavy weapons (rendering any usage of the Smokescreen stratagem also pointless) and they instantly one-round the most expensive vehicle on the board, my lone Predator, first shooting attack of the game. The rest of the space wolves move up, nothing else much happens because both of us are using mostly oldschool rhino-rush list setups.

- One squad of rubrics hops out of a rhino, gets prescience'd and easily blows away both the devastator squad and 3/5 of the members of a blood claw squad that came in on the same pod but had nothing to charge at. My heldrake drops into hover, shoots across no mans land and kills 1 minor character (a lieutenant, or equivalent I think) and then charges a librarian, instantly wipes him out too to secure an objective.

-Thunderwolves roll into the exposed rubric squad, killing them all. The two remaining blood claws swing around a building and get to some cultists hanging on an objective, killing like 7/10 of them after morale. A dreadnought charges the heldrake, kills it. A squad of blood claws hops out, kills a rhino, can't swing around enough to insta-kill the squad though so they get out.

-The squad whose rhino got destroyed gets buffed, kills the blood claws, two of my sorcerors drop all the mortal wound powers into the dreadnought, kill it, my terminators drop in, leave one thunderwolf alive

top of turn 3, my opponent is working with 1 thunderwolf, 2 blood claws, a jump pack chaplain, a drop pod, and two rhinos. Game's done! we basically just had him use the dregs to kill whatever he could which IIRC was basically the two sorcerors. What about the mission we wrote up? Eh, didnt matter, everything just fething died, like it always does, by turn 3.

Now, I understand that there are actions I could have taken to, for example, set my cultist squad up carefully screening out the tank so the one multi-melta would have not basically insta-killed it and it might have escaped that single shooting attack with 2-3 wounds. My opponent could have not blown his blood claw squad killing a rhino, or he could have made sure to keep the dreadnought near the two HQs in his territory so that the dread could have intervened on the helldrake and avenged the two HQs right then, instead of on his following turn.

But here's the thing: In a casual, narrative game, the stakes being set to 'if you make one single bad move, if you misposition by a fething MILLIMETER so your opponent can draw LOS, or get a deep striker in unscreened, or sneak a multi-melta into melta range, or you miscalculate the movement required to fully wrap a transport with your pile-in and consolidate, you will IMMEDIATELY lose whatever 150-250 points of models you made the mistake with' sucks. It sucks so, so much ass, because even if youre very very purposefully trying to bring soft, friendly units, and construct a fun scenario, once you get into the game you just cant. You can't decide "oh, what if this character fought that character, won't this make an exciting matchup?" because you know, going in, if your character is charging? The target is probably just gonna die. Between buffed offensive stats, stratagems, auras, and various and sundry bonuses, it is so trivial to stack up buffs onto a unit to turn it into just an absolute damage hose - a simple 10-squad of rubrics hops out of a rhino and goes 'OK, here's 19 shots, hitting on 2s rerollable, wounding on 2s because we got the buffed strength from the infernal master and we used the strat for +1 to wound, AP-2 so youre saving on 5s oh and also the now 5 shots at S6 Ap-3 from our soulreaper cannon that's another 2 dead, your unit is basically smoking boots now.


You created a mission where the only incentive for the SW player was to kill you.

Sending a model in to challenge another isn't a realistic scenario, because you don't fight fair in war. Maybe if we had the old challenge rules, but those were kind of gak.

These rubrics:
a simple 10-squad of rubrics hops out of a rhino and goes 'OK, here's 19 shots, hitting on 2s rerollable, wounding on 2s because we got the buffed strength from the infernal master and we used the strat for +1 to wound, AP-2 so youre saving on 5s oh and also the now 5 shots at S6 Ap-3 from our soulreaper cannon that's another 2 dead, your unit is basically smoking boots now.


Aren't "a simple squad of rubrics".

You have a squad @ 220, a rhino @ 90+ points, an Infernal Master @ 90 points, and at least an exalted @ 100 points. So, 490 points and 2 CP to deliver and kill 140. And that's a problem?

   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






In one round, not including any damage those other units do with their shooting, and next turn he can do it again. So yes, it IS a problem.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 NinthMusketeer wrote:
In one round, not including any damage those other units do with their shooting, and next turn he can do it again. So yes, it IS a problem.


The other player gets a turn before then and the rubrics are out of their shell.

It absolutely is not a problem to spend 3x the points to kill something. These expectations are so unrealistic it borders on the absurd.

   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

It's surprising the lengths you'll go to in order to pretend that lethality isn't through the fething roof in 9th.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
CSM 3.5 was the only other "interesting" book, because you could take a LoC and spend a gakload of points of sorcerers.
And, as it turned out, an army with 2 wounds each really did have something going for it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/14 00:06:57


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Daedalus81 wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
In one round, not including any damage those other units do with their shooting, and next turn he can do it again. So yes, it IS a problem.


The other player gets a turn before then and the rubrics are out of their shell.

It absolutely is not a problem to spend 3x the points to kill something. These expectations are so unrealistic it borders on the absurd.


first off, no, we actually didnt, we specifically designed the mission to attempt to NOT do that because we built the whole thing around scoring points by opening and closing portals via Actions in an attempt to limit lethality, only problem was it completely didnt work, because god forbid we didnt think the planet fenris would have the terrain density of a hive city and we just had a couple obscuring pieces to work with, not enough to hide 100% of our armies from 100% of opposing firepower turn one, which is apparently a perfectly fine and dandy requirement for this casual funsy beer-and-pretzels game (hope you didnt want to finish more than half a beer or eat more than one pretzel) to need in order to tell the most basic story possible.

it becomes a problem when there are NO meaningful barriers in 9th between you and doing that with all your units, besides one single all-or-nothing terrain trait that can be negated by sighting a single square micrometer of the target unit around the side of a terrain piece.

Units having 33% lethality in most wargames at optimal range in optimal sighting condition is absolutely no problem, because other wargames HAVE ANY KIND OF SYSTEM FOR THAT TO MATTER. 9th just hands it to you, like, here you go, your guys who can see .001% of one single opposing model in the target unit at the barest edge of your optimal range, enjoy shooting them with the same exact effectiveness as if they were 2" away completely in the open.

What happens when you do that? Well, the game lasts, juuust about 3 turns before one player's forces are totally decimated and there's little reason to continue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:

The other player gets a turn before then and the rubrics are out of their shell.


Ah yes, foolishly I have EXPOSED my extremely vulnerable, famously easily destroyed rubric marines to the enemy, and it is 100% in accordance with the lore of the game that they should INSTANTLY EVAPORATE after exiting their rhino and firing one single devastating volley that deletes an opposing target.

Wheeeeeeeeeeeee, it's just like im there, in the lore of the game world of warhammer 40,000! Me and my opponent's power-armored warriors, melting like wax at the slightest provocation, 10,000 year old veterans snuffed out six hyper-violent seconds of destruction.

My favorite part of the warhammer 40,000 background fiction is when any time two characters close in to have a duel, they never ever ever ever last more than one single swing and whichever one got to the fight first effortlessly eviscerates their opponent with 5-7 blows .

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/14 01:00:38


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in ca
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Halifax

In fairness that narrative back and forth is really hard to design and develop as a commercial product.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







 Nurglitch wrote:
In fairness that narrative back and forth is really hard to design and develop as a commercial product.


If only there weren't tons of other games (Chain of Command) where the rules support (MESBG) the universe they are (Stargrunt) set in.

We can write our own stories, but the rules have to have SOME semblance of adherence to the setting (other than just name).
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

Dakka dakka dakka was heavy useless dice rolling. As an ork player I'm glad it's gone. Same for the goffs' counterpart ability in melee, which now grants double hits on 6s instead of more dice rolling.


 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Blackie wrote:
Dakka dakka dakka was heavy useless dice rolling. As an ork player I'm glad it's gone. Same for the goffs' counterpart ability in melee, which now grants double hits on 6s instead of more dice rolling.


It's also worth noting that rokkits and KMB, which are most commonly remembered kindly when DDD felt like it did something, now get d3 attacks instead of 1. So that part of the "feel" remained.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

Pretty much everything got more shots in the new codex. Among the most common stuff I think just sluggas, snazzguns and artillery weapons kept the same number of shots they had in 8th.

Which is not really a good thing since dice rolling is still high this way, although a necessary thing considering the state of other codexes, and at least that dice rolling is mostly condensed in a single "batch" now.


 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Blackie wrote:
Pretty much everything got more shots in the new codex. Among the most common stuff I think just sluggas, snazzguns and artillery weapons kept the same number of shots they had in 8th.

Which is not really a good thing since dice rolling is still high this way, although a necessary thing considering the state of other codexes, and at least that dice rolling is mostly condensed in a single "batch" now.


Not really though? Dakka weapons got more shots at half range, but at full range almost all those weapons stayed the same. Out of the heavy and assault weapons only the rokkit variants and the KMB (but not its variants) got more shots.

I can create a full list if you are interested in a detailed comparison.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:


You have a squad @ 220, a rhino @ 90+ points, an Infernal Master @ 90 points, and at least an exalted @ 100 points. So, 490 points and 2 CP to deliver and kill 140. And that's a problem?


It's not exactly accurate to include all those character points in the cost of the unit. Yes, they provided buffs, but they are also making other contributions outside of boosting those Rubrics. They could, for example, easily run off after shooting and charge another unit or the Rhino could move block or tie up something in close combat. Unsurprisingly you've missed the point, or are wilfully ignoring it. The problem is twofold. If you remove those buffs the Rubrics kill about 3 SW and get the chance to charge to do a bit more damage. That seems OK and more or less inline with most other wargames in terms of lethality. It shouldn't be possible to buff a unit so much that it goes from doing decent but not catastrophic damage to their target to wiping them out. There's also no counterplay to this beyond "don't get shot". The SW player just has to sit there and take it.

As the_scotsman said, it's about the gameplay reflecting the lore and at the moment it fails pretty hard as units simply evaporate the moment they're targeted. There's very little ability to gradually grind the opponent down, incrementally improve your position and eliminate units through better positioning and superior in-game decisions. It's just endless trades between units.
   
Made in cz
Regular Dakkanaut




I'd rather play against the old "dakka dakka dakka" army fishing for hits with rerolls than against any army with generous access to hit rolls of 2+ with rerolls of 1.

The former was at least fun to watch.

The latter is just pure waste of time.
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

 Jidmah wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Pretty much everything got more shots in the new codex. Among the most common stuff I think just sluggas, snazzguns and artillery weapons kept the same number of shots they had in 8th.

Which is not really a good thing since dice rolling is still high this way, although a necessary thing considering the state of other codexes, and at least that dice rolling is mostly condensed in a single "batch" now.


Not really though? Dakka weapons got more shots at half range, but at full range almost all those weapons stayed the same. Out of the heavy and assault weapons only the rokkit variants and the KMB (but not its variants) got more shots.

I can create a full list if you are interested in a detailed comparison.


Getting within half range with units like bikes, planes, buggies or lootas in trukks is trivial though, typically it's guaranteed. We also have a stratagem, quite expensive though, that allows a unit to fire max shots, as if it was within half range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kitane wrote:
I'd rather play against the old "dakka dakka dakka" army fishing for hits with rerolls than against any army with generous access to hit rolls of 2+ with rerolls of 1.

The former was at least fun to watch.

The latter is just pure waste of time.


Disagree about the former, 100% agree about the latter.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/14 10:39:21



 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







Dakka Dakka Dakka for me is almost the quintessential version of rules bloat. Orks like to shoot more?

So let their guns shoot more! We don't need a special rule or whatnot, just more bullets.
   
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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Dakka Dakka Dakka for me is almost the quintessential version of rules bloat. Orks like to shoot more?

So let their guns shoot more! We don't need a special rule or whatnot, just more bullets.


Yeah, and unusually for GW they actually made an attempt to fix it the correct way - by adding more shots...because Ork shooting has always felt silly since the removal of templates.

they didnt actually SUCCEED, shootas are still utter garbage (they're about where I'd want every unit to be in the game damage output-wise, but compared to so, so many other things theyre unusable trash because they wont get the 5 turns of shooting required to make their points back) but they at least tried in the right way?


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Slipspace wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:


You have a squad @ 220, a rhino @ 90+ points, an Infernal Master @ 90 points, and at least an exalted @ 100 points. So, 490 points and 2 CP to deliver and kill 140. And that's a problem?


It's not exactly accurate to include all those character points in the cost of the unit. Yes, they provided buffs, but they are also making other contributions outside of boosting those Rubrics. They could, for example, easily run off after shooting and charge another unit or the Rhino could move block or tie up something in close combat. Unsurprisingly you've missed the point, or are wilfully ignoring it. The problem is twofold. If you remove those buffs the Rubrics kill about 3 SW and get the chance to charge to do a bit more damage. That seems OK and more or less inline with most other wargames in terms of lethality. It shouldn't be possible to buff a unit so much that it goes from doing decent but not catastrophic damage to their target to wiping them out. There's also no counterplay to this beyond "don't get shot". The SW player just has to sit there and take it.

As the_scotsman said, it's about the gameplay reflecting the lore and at the moment it fails pretty hard as units simply evaporate the moment they're targeted. There's very little ability to gradually grind the opponent down, incrementally improve your position and eliminate units through better positioning and superior in-game decisions. It's just endless trades between units.


If the narrative you want to tell with your game is anything other than "two armies set up entirely hidden behind LOS-blocking terrain, and they take turns popping out of that cover to run up the board, kill one thing, and then immediately get mowed down in response" then 9th is an extremely bad system to try and model that in.

If you remove strats, traits, relics, doctrines and subfactions its a lot better, at least its just a barebones framework that lets you tell a semblance of an interesting story about whats happening, but it's still not great.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/14 11:44:12


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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When I first began this hobby I would frequently become frustrated at my losses. Many friends would tell me things like "It takes 50 games before you start winning" or "To learn your army you need to lose 30 times" and so on. When I would lose a game, it was always hard. My losses would be things like me having 2 victory points and my opponent have 17. Once I lost 70 out of 72 models in my list on the first turn of shooting against my friends Ad Mech, basically it was a 40 minute game that comprised 30 minutes of set up, 1 second of him rolling to seize and 9 minutes 59 seconds of him raking me over the coals.

As time went on I improved my skills, but still continued to lose over and over and over. People I played with in those days switched their armies the second a new hot list came in, where I continued to play my same old list of Salamanders filled with Tactical Marines, Predator Tanks, Dreadnoughts and Drop Pods, and a Landraider.

What I learned during those earlier years is that I was doing it all wrong. I wanted fun, lasting narrative games. That's how I built my lists, but my opponents were only playing for competition, with honed net lists and min/maxed WAAC playstyles. Once I figured this all out, and changed who I played with, my games got better and so too did the hobby for me.

I remember after every game my friends wanted to sit there and analyze every die roll. One friend in particular always had a pad and paper would would be calculating something. "See" He'd say. "If you'd taken this upgrade, for these points, on this unit you could have increased it's effectiveness 2.16% which is much better than what you took." He would say.

I hated that. I really didn't want to analyze ever mistake, missed rule, or unit percentage effectiveness.

Today, I'm super selective in who I play with. My group of current players is much, much more friendly and interested in trying unorthodox things. More open to house rules or requests for units to not use, or not to min/max. It's a better hobby for me that way.
   
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Spoiler:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
I care less about winning every game and more about whether my units authentically feel like they play like theyre supposed to in the lore of the game world, and eldar do not.

supposedly lightning-fast ninja space elf warriors who trained in the blade while you dated make fewer attacks in melee than a lumbering monkeigh astartes holding a gigantic melta cannon.

Mono-molecular chainswords that cut effortlessly through steel have the same stats as lead pipes held by chaos cultists.

the mighty avatar of the bloody handed god loses in close combat to every no-name astartes captain OK that's pretty canon-accurate I'll admit it.


This post hits the nail on the head.

Honestly, I'd take a RETROGRADE for Guard (in terms of some design choices; e.g. I'd like to see a return to Platoons), and I don't even really care if they're winning (I'm building an Armageddon Steel Legion force right now, surely the most competitive list ever to grace the tables! )

But some of the changes they could put in the 9th edition codex would be super neat just from a narrative play perspective.

Regiment Types aren't a thing like they were back in the day (e.g. Mechanized, Armored, Artillery, Infantry, Siege) with all the boons and drawbacks thereof.

Regiment Homeworld matters too much imho (it used to be a kinda neat background thing while you played with Your Dudes, now it's the only way to differentiate). A Cadian Mechanized Infantry Company should be more different than a Cadian Artillery Company than it should be from a Valhallan Mechanized Company.

I could go on, but yeah.


^^^^ great posts scotsman and unit

Having missed some editions, what you are saying about guard an eldar is interesting. Let's hope the design team for the new codexes are secretly reading this.

Re: OP
Nothing wrong with wanting to win, and discussing the best ways to do it on the internets. Glad you could rant though, helps to get it out eh?


I have a blog on the Warhammer Tournaments website:

Taking Pride in Power Armour

My painting and modeling blog:

PaddyMick's Chopshop: Converted 40K Vehicles 
   
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 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah im on team 'old DDD was a cute concept that failed in execution.'

My personal take was 'make it cause 2 hits on a 6 to reduce the booty-blasting orks get from -1 to hit effects' but they went the route of 'just make every ork shooting weapon stronger' which is...fine. I do really really hate the way new dakka type plays tho, it makes ork shooting units which should be the faction sprinting forward firing with wild abandon into the most conservative, careful shooting army in the game.


The big mistake is that everyone thinks dakka helped with high firerate stuff. Dakka was extremely impactful on the low shot high damage weapons. I don’t know if it’s my luck or whatever but I never feel like dakka wasted any time for me. What they should have done is keep old dakka, combine it with new dakka, and make those guns count as assault. Maybe then we’d see balance between our punchy stuff and the actual dakka.

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
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Halifax

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Nurglitch wrote:
In fairness that narrative back and forth is really hard to design and develop as a commercial product.


If only there weren't tons of other games (Chain of Command) where the rules support (MESBG) the universe they are (Stargrunt) set in.

We can write our own stories, but the rules have to have SOME semblance of adherence to the setting (other than just name).

I don't think they do, at least not for GW products. I mean, it's clearly not something that's affecting their bottom line. I don't think the majority of GW customers care either.

   
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah im on team 'old DDD was a cute concept that failed in execution.'

My personal take was 'make it cause 2 hits on a 6 to reduce the booty-blasting orks get from -1 to hit effects' but they went the route of 'just make every ork shooting weapon stronger' which is...fine. I do really really hate the way new dakka type plays tho, it makes ork shooting units which should be the faction sprinting forward firing with wild abandon into the most conservative, careful shooting army in the game.


The big mistake is that everyone thinks dakka helped with high firerate stuff. Dakka was extremely impactful on the low shot high damage weapons. I don’t know if it’s my luck or whatever but I never feel like dakka wasted any time for me. What they should have done is keep old dakka, combine it with new dakka, and make those guns count as assault. Maybe then we’d see balance between our punchy stuff and the actual dakka.


rolling more dice automatically mean that you're taking more time. And sure, on low rate of fire it doesnt add that much time, but surprise surprise, shoota boys had it. Making DDD into a tesla kind of thing wouldve been a way better change than the current one.

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