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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Well, one of us is trying to help people use the rules we have and one is here to complain about them.


Deflecting legitimate criticism of the current rules by blaming the player for playing the game as written is not 'trying to help people use the rules'. Frankly, you're doing the opposite of trying to help people use the rules: You're telling OP that his opponent is a dick for following the rules.

Then you respond to HBMC's criticism of this attitude by strawmanning him into saying that the game shouldn't allow you to make mistakes. As if that's what anyone was talking about.

Portraying this exchange as 'at least I'm trying to help' is utter bs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/22 01:44:33


   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 the_scotsman wrote:
Even out in the open the destroyers would only kill 4 intercessors, assuming theyre the plasma ones. Doesnt seem that devastating of a hard counter idk. if the dreadnought wasnt there itd be a fairly rough match up for the intercessors but I feel like in the current config id just take the chunk out of my ints and then the dreadnought would carve up the destroyers no prob.


By points I'd guess grav - although it doesn't change things that much.
The Marine player should also use transhuman on those intercessors every day of the week, which probably saves one.
I guess there are a few things you can do to boost output on the destroyers.

But all in all the odds of wiping all 10 seem very low.

And by degree, if the Redemptor turns round, kills the destroyers and guts one of the Skitarii squads (need a lucky number of shots with the macro plasma but not that unlikely), it seems like you still have a game - 3 units to 2. And the only thing that can really hurt the Dread is Cawl's unreliable atomiser - the rest is plinking off the odd wound. Not unreasonable to end up at the top of turn 3 with Cawl versus a dread minus some wounds+captain and a "camp the objectives" approach isn't going to work.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




At the very least OP got an accurate sample of what 40k is, down to the long-winded discussion of the absurd LOS rules here

The same rules do apply to AoS though, so I'm not sure how they missed it there. Sniping nighthaunt characters because their banner/sword sticks out is the main way to deal with them by shooting armies among other examples.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 catbarf wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Well, one of us is trying to help people use the rules we have and one is here to complain about them.


Deflecting legitimate criticism of the current rules by blaming the player for playing the game as written is not 'trying to help people use the rules'. Frankly, you're doing the opposite of trying to help people use the rules: You're telling OP that his opponent is a dick for following the rules.

Then you respond to HBMC's criticism of this attitude by strawmanning him into saying that the game shouldn't allow you to make mistakes. As if that's what anyone was talking about.

Portraying this exchange as 'at least I'm trying to help' is utter bs.


I guess? I'm not saying the guy is a dick for following the rules. I'm saying he's a dick for working over a new player and not letting them know how the game works or offering forgiveness for being new.

Is that how you train new employees? Beat them on their mistakes? Or understand that they lack full knowledge and give them leeway? I know one of those approaches works better than the other.

   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Central Valley, California

First, thanks everyone for exploring my situation. All of your input is appreciated.

I'll begin responding to individuals when I have feedback, but for now I want you to know that I am going to:

1.) have a thorough read-through again of the rules.
2..) Have a sit down with my opponent and chat about what we want out of our games together. This includes at the least:
A.) Our need for more terrain, per the main rule books suggestions and possibly some YouTube tutorials on the subject. This includes not making everything symmetrical (which seems to open up firing lanes as well).
B.)Negotiating lists prior to playing -- explore if he wants to bring a tournament ready list, or do we want to do something more toned down.
This will either help me prepare for the occasional lower point tourneys that happen in town with my Deathguard, or on the flipside learn my secondary Admech army and try out different fluffy units.

I've taken into account a lot of what is said here, and again it is appreciated.
I will say also that a few months ago I strongly encouraged him to find other 40K opponents as he was waiting on me to finish my AoS league. He has, and it is time I do the same if I wish to learn the game. This will only benefit both of us.

Cheers

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/22 22:31:19


~ Shrap

Rolling 1's for five decades.
AoS * Warcry * LoTR SBG * Dust 1947 * Warmaster 10mm * 40K & Kill Team * Flames of '47 * Reign in Hell
 
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




 Daedalus81 wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Well, one of us is trying to help people use the rules we have and one is here to complain about them.


Deflecting legitimate criticism of the current rules by blaming the player for playing the game as written is not 'trying to help people use the rules'. Frankly, you're doing the opposite of trying to help people use the rules: You're telling OP that his opponent is a dick for following the rules.

Then you respond to HBMC's criticism of this attitude by strawmanning him into saying that the game shouldn't allow you to make mistakes. As if that's what anyone was talking about.

Portraying this exchange as 'at least I'm trying to help' is utter bs.


I guess? I'm not saying the guy is a dick for following the rules. I'm saying he's a dick for working over a new player and not letting them know how the game works or offering forgiveness for being new.

Is that how you train new employees? Beat them on their mistakes? Or understand that they lack full knowledge and give them leeway? I know one of those approaches works better than the other.


I wonder if you know which one you're using.

Why approach the situation as 'someone is being a dick' at all? Why use false positivity as a bludgeon to try reframe the conversation into something it isn't?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/23 01:29:59


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Nope...not worth the time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/23 02:20:08


   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Central Valley, California

Cronch wrote:
At the very least OP got an accurate sample of what 40k is, down to the long-winded discussion of the absurd LOS rules here

The same rules do apply to AoS though, so I'm not sure how they missed it there. Sniping nighthaunt characters because their banner/sword sticks out is the main way to deal with them by shooting armies among other examples.


Oddly enough, it has not yet transpired in any of my AoS games. perhaps it will, be we are so accustomed to not a lot of terrain that this issue hasn't arisen.
I cannot put my finger on why terrain seems to be so much less significant for me in my Sigmar matches, save the fact that melee is the main form of combat in AoS, and firing generally is in 40K.

I played a Tzeentch force, and he was shooting the gak out of me across mostly an open field (The store doesn't haven't much terrain yet). But between Soulblight spells, and my Command abilities, we still
ended up having a blazing good match that ended in a draw. The first full draw of the league.


~ Shrap

Rolling 1's for five decades.
AoS * Warcry * LoTR SBG * Dust 1947 * Warmaster 10mm * 40K & Kill Team * Flames of '47 * Reign in Hell
 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Nope...not worth the time.
This ain't the time to try and take the high road...

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought




Voss wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Well, one of us is trying to help people use the rules we have and one is here to complain about them.


Deflecting legitimate criticism of the current rules by blaming the player for playing the game as written is not 'trying to help people use the rules'. Frankly, you're doing the opposite of trying to help people use the rules: You're telling OP that his opponent is a dick for following the rules.

Then you respond to HBMC's criticism of this attitude by strawmanning him into saying that the game shouldn't allow you to make mistakes. As if that's what anyone was talking about.

Portraying this exchange as 'at least I'm trying to help' is utter bs.


I guess? I'm not saying the guy is a dick for following the rules. I'm saying he's a dick for working over a new player and not letting them know how the game works or offering forgiveness for being new.

Is that how you train new employees? Beat them on their mistakes? Or understand that they lack full knowledge and give them leeway? I know one of those approaches works better than the other.


I wonder if you know which one you're using.

Why approach the situation as 'someone is being a dick' at all? Why use false positivity as a bludgeon to try reframe the conversation into something it isn't?


It's down to the context of the conversation. If experienced player can tell the person they're playing doesn't know the rules as well, then the polite and helpful thing to do is to educate as you go. The commonly acceptable level of politeness here is to make allowances as they've made an error and you don't want to stomp them as that creates bad feelings, when you want perspective new players to feel engaged.

Just playing to win at the expense of your opponent, who clearly doesn't understand what is happening fully is the "being a dick" in question here. Educate and encourage.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




But why, steamrolling newbies had SUCH a great effect on Warmahordes playerbase !
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Cronch wrote:
But why, steamrolling newbies had SUCH a great effect on Warmahordes playerbase !


That's definitely a problem that needs to be nipped in the bud whenever you see it. I don't think we can say that's what happened here though. The SM army wasn't exactly some OP abomination and the LoS rules were followed in the same way I've seen numerous new players follow them. Some posters just seem to be very keen to blame the players for the shortcomings of the rules.
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




Slipspace wrote:
Cronch wrote:
But why, steamrolling newbies had SUCH a great effect on Warmahordes playerbase !


That's definitely a problem that needs to be nipped in the bud whenever you see it. I don't think we can say that's what happened here though. The SM army wasn't exactly some OP abomination and the LoS rules were followed in the same way I've seen numerous new players follow them. Some posters just seem to be very keen to blame the players for the shortcomings of the rules.


Agreed. The lists look like two people throwing their Starterboxes against each other. And yes, since 8th RAW everything you can see from a model counts as in los. So if you're not familiar with older editions or don't really have a clue what makes sense you go by what the rulebook says. Also 500 points are especially prone to onesided matches, and I've seen that in most Wargames I played, not just 40K. One bad die roll can screw you up. All that being said, too little terrain played into it as well. Basically you shouldn't even be able to see most of your enemy in first turn, at least not without moving into dangerous positions yourself, no matter what terrain keywords you use.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Shrapnelsmile wrote:
Cronch wrote:
At the very least OP got an accurate sample of what 40k is, down to the long-winded discussion of the absurd LOS rules here

The same rules do apply to AoS though, so I'm not sure how they missed it there. Sniping nighthaunt characters because their banner/sword sticks out is the main way to deal with them by shooting armies among other examples.


Oddly enough, it has not yet transpired in any of my AoS games. perhaps it will, be we are so accustomed to not a lot of terrain that this issue hasn't arisen.
I cannot put my finger on why terrain seems to be so much less significant for me in my Sigmar matches, save the fact that melee is the main form of combat in AoS, and firing generally is in 40K.

I played a Tzeentch force, and he was shooting the gak out of me across mostly an open field (The store doesn't haven't much terrain yet). But between Soulblight spells, and my Command abilities, we still
ended up having a blazing good match that ended in a draw. The first full draw of the league.



I'll give you a hint:

150pts shooting unit in AOS:

Auralan Sentinels, 4+sv target, successfully cast their self-buff spell to do MWs on a 6, within 18" range: 4.43 damage

150pts shooting unit in 40k

Eradicators, T7 3+sv target, within 12" range, no other buffs: 19.96 damage

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






How powerful are those sentinels compared to other shooting units? More on the strong side or average? Honest question, because compared to flash gits or intercessors, 4.43 damage doesn't seem too bad.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




They're one of the strongest shooting units in the game, mostly because they don't need LOS at all with their self-boost.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





 the_scotsman wrote:
 Shrapnelsmile wrote:
Cronch wrote:
At the very least OP got an accurate sample of what 40k is, down to the long-winded discussion of the absurd LOS rules here

The same rules do apply to AoS though, so I'm not sure how they missed it there. Sniping nighthaunt characters because their banner/sword sticks out is the main way to deal with them by shooting armies among other examples.


Oddly enough, it has not yet transpired in any of my AoS games. perhaps it will, be we are so accustomed to not a lot of terrain that this issue hasn't arisen.
I cannot put my finger on why terrain seems to be so much less significant for me in my Sigmar matches, save the fact that melee is the main form of combat in AoS, and firing generally is in 40K.

I played a Tzeentch force, and he was shooting the gak out of me across mostly an open field (The store doesn't haven't much terrain yet). But between Soulblight spells, and my Command abilities, we still
ended up having a blazing good match that ended in a draw. The first full draw of the league.



I'll give you a hint:

150pts shooting unit in AOS:

Auralan Sentinels, 4+sv target, successfully cast their self-buff spell to do MWs on a 6, within 18" range: 4.43 damage

150pts shooting unit in 40k

Eradicators, T7 3+sv target, within 12" range, no other buffs: 19.96 damage


While it is kind of true that shooting in AoS is generally less oppressive than 40K (but it still dominated the meta for a good while), that comparison is incredibly misleading.

First of all, you are comparing a slow short ranged unit to a unit that fire with no-LoS and can shoot up to 30" with minimal impacts on its damage. Second, most of that damage you mentioned are actually mortal wounds (3.33 MW). Third, the points per wound in AoS is on average higher than in 40k, so you can't compare directly the damage inflicted. Last, you are using an AT platform from 40K, which is really apples to oranges compared to AoS, since in AoS damage spills and in 40K it doesn't.

A more apt comparison would be the shooting of 19 admech rangers (152 points), which are a top meta choice. On a T4 3+ target, which is the closest thing to a 4+ save in Sigmar (Sigmarine profile), they inflict 6,27 damage. Considering that one is a no-LoS platform which inflicts MW, you can see that there isn't that big of a difference between the systems.

(Also consider that the sentinels have a Deny roll included in those 150 points)

What really sets apart AoS shooting from 40K shooting, are the ranges. Ranges in 40K are on average much longer.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/24 16:29:06


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Jidmah wrote:
How powerful are those sentinels compared to other shooting units? More on the strong side or average? Honest question, because compared to flash gits or intercessors, 4.43 damage doesn't seem too bad.


Considered a fairly top-tier unit. Also, 1W 5+Sv, 15pts per model. Note that this firepower is at 18" range and with the successful casting of effectively a WC6 psychic power (works the same as in 40k except denies in AOS are generally more common, if you want to attack out of LOS or at 30" range you need to use the weaker profile.

Weaker profile, without the self-buff power on them, same 4+sv target: 2.53 damage.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 Shrapnelsmile wrote:
Cronch wrote:
At the very least OP got an accurate sample of what 40k is, down to the long-winded discussion of the absurd LOS rules here

The same rules do apply to AoS though, so I'm not sure how they missed it there. Sniping nighthaunt characters because their banner/sword sticks out is the main way to deal with them by shooting armies among other examples.


Oddly enough, it has not yet transpired in any of my AoS games. perhaps it will, be we are so accustomed to not a lot of terrain that this issue hasn't arisen.
I cannot put my finger on why terrain seems to be so much less significant for me in my Sigmar matches, save the fact that melee is the main form of combat in AoS, and firing generally is in 40K.

I played a Tzeentch force, and he was shooting the gak out of me across mostly an open field (The store doesn't haven't much terrain yet). But between Soulblight spells, and my Command abilities, we still
ended up having a blazing good match that ended in a draw. The first full draw of the league.



I'll give you a hint:

150pts shooting unit in AOS:

Auralan Sentinels, 4+sv target, successfully cast their self-buff spell to do MWs on a 6, within 18" range: 4.43 damage

150pts shooting unit in 40k

Eradicators, T7 3+sv target, within 12" range, no other buffs: 19.96 damage


While it is kind of true that shooting in AoS is generally less oppressive than 40K (but it still dominated the meta for a good while), that comparison is incredibly misleading.

First of all, you are comparing a slow short ranged unit to a unit that fire with no-LoS and can shoot up to 30" with minimal impacts on its damage. Second, most of that damage you mentioned are actually mortal wounds (3.33 MW). Third, the points per wound in AoS is on average higher than in 40k, so you can't compare directly the damage inflicted. Last, you are using an AT platform from 40K, which is really apples to oranges compared to AoS, since in AoS damage spills and in 40K it doesn't.

A more apt comparison would be the shooting of 19 admech rangers (152 points), which are a top meta choice. On a T4 3+ target, which is the closest thing to a 4+ save in Sigmar (Sigmarine profile), they inflict 6,27 damage. Considering that one is a no-LoS platform which inflicts MW, you can see that there isn't that big of a difference between the systems.

(Also consider that the sentinels have a Deny roll included in those 150 points)

What really sets apart AoS shooting from 40K shooting, are the ranges. Ranges in 40K are on average much longer.


(minimal impact to damage here meaning "-1 to hit, no AP instead of -1AP" btw.)

Basic space marine in 40k: 2W, 3+sv, T4, 20ppm
Basic Sigmarine in AOS: 2W, 4+sv, no toughness cus its AOS, 19ppm

pts per wound might be very slightly higher on average....but not much as far as I can tell.

We are also ABSOLUTELY steel-manning this comparison with AOS vs 40k. The rangers, for example, get stackable passive auras, stratagems, doctrinas, and two forge world bonuses rather than 1.

A unit of 19 Mars rangers can decide, "You know what, I'd really like to kill something. Let's do just that", declare the relevant doctrina and canticle, and

-up their shots per model to 3
-hit on 2s, with 2 rerolls
-wound on 4s, with a bonus mortal wound on 6s, with 1 reroll
-save on 4s, ignoring cover if they decided they wanted the 5pt upgrade to always ignore light cover

and just cheerfully deal 20 wounds to those space marines.

The lumineth? They can make themselves +1 to hit, upping their max potential damage to 6.66.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and because I know what Daed is going to say here - yes, that is a quarter of your CP, a limited resource, but it does enable you to neatly remove 10% of your opponent's army with one single shooting attack with 30" range ignoring Light Cover, and it isnt even taking into account what any of your other units can accomplish in that turn. You've used 150pts/2000pts in your army and your opponent is down 200pts. The fact that you're able to amp up your big combo-wombo units by blowing all your CP in one go to force your opponent to shovel 50% of his army off the board in a single turn is not a good feature that 40k has.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/10/24 20:21:17


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Cronch wrote:They're one of the strongest shooting units in the game, mostly because they don't need LOS at all with their self-boost.


the_scotsman wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
How powerful are those sentinels compared to other shooting units? More on the strong side or average? Honest question, because compared to flash gits or intercessors, 4.43 damage doesn't seem too bad.


Considered a fairly top-tier unit. Also, 1W 5+Sv, 15pts per model. Note that this firepower is at 18" range and with the successful casting of effectively a WC6 psychic power (works the same as in 40k except denies in AOS are generally more common, if you want to attack out of LOS or at 30" range you need to use the weaker profile.

Weaker profile, without the self-buff power on them, same 4+sv target: 2.53 damage.


Thanks. I guess having an output comparable to flash gits or intercessors to be considered top tier wouldn't be so bad.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





 the_scotsman wrote:
Spoiler:
 Jidmah wrote:
How powerful are those sentinels compared to other shooting units? More on the strong side or average? Honest question, because compared to flash gits or intercessors, 4.43 damage doesn't seem too bad.


Considered a fairly top-tier unit. Also, 1W 5+Sv, 15pts per model. Note that this firepower is at 18" range and with the successful casting of effectively a WC6 psychic power (works the same as in 40k except denies in AOS are generally more common, if you want to attack out of LOS or at 30" range you need to use the weaker profile.

Weaker profile, without the self-buff power on them, same 4+sv target: 2.53 damage.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 Shrapnelsmile wrote:
Cronch wrote:
At the very least OP got an accurate sample of what 40k is, down to the long-winded discussion of the absurd LOS rules here

The same rules do apply to AoS though, so I'm not sure how they missed it there. Sniping nighthaunt characters because their banner/sword sticks out is the main way to deal with them by shooting armies among other examples.


Oddly enough, it has not yet transpired in any of my AoS games. perhaps it will, be we are so accustomed to not a lot of terrain that this issue hasn't arisen.
I cannot put my finger on why terrain seems to be so much less significant for me in my Sigmar matches, save the fact that melee is the main form of combat in AoS, and firing generally is in 40K.

I played a Tzeentch force, and he was shooting the gak out of me across mostly an open field (The store doesn't haven't much terrain yet). But between Soulblight spells, and my Command abilities, we still
ended up having a blazing good match that ended in a draw. The first full draw of the league.



I'll give you a hint:

150pts shooting unit in AOS:

Auralan Sentinels, 4+sv target, successfully cast their self-buff spell to do MWs on a 6, within 18" range: 4.43 damage

150pts shooting unit in 40k

Eradicators, T7 3+sv target, within 12" range, no other buffs: 19.96 damage


While it is kind of true that shooting in AoS is generally less oppressive than 40K (but it still dominated the meta for a good while), that comparison is incredibly misleading.

First of all, you are comparing a slow short ranged unit to a unit that fire with no-LoS and can shoot up to 30" with minimal impacts on its damage. Second, most of that damage you mentioned are actually mortal wounds (3.33 MW). Third, the points per wound in AoS is on average higher than in 40k, so you can't compare directly the damage inflicted. Last, you are using an AT platform from 40K, which is really apples to oranges compared to AoS, since in AoS damage spills and in 40K it doesn't.

A more apt comparison would be the shooting of 19 admech rangers (152 points), which are a top meta choice. On a T4 3+ target, which is the closest thing to a 4+ save in Sigmar (Sigmarine profile), they inflict 6,27 damage. Considering that one is a no-LoS platform which inflicts MW, you can see that there isn't that big of a difference between the systems.

(Also consider that the sentinels have a Deny roll included in those 150 points)

What really sets apart AoS shooting from 40K shooting, are the ranges. Ranges in 40K are on average much longer.


(minimal impact to damage here meaning "-1 to hit, no AP instead of -1AP" btw.)

Basic space marine in 40k: 2W, 3+sv, T4, 20ppm
Basic Sigmarine in AOS: 2W, 4+sv, no toughness cus its AOS, 19ppm

pts per wound might be very slightly higher on average....but not much as far as I can tell.

We are also ABSOLUTELY steel-manning this comparison with AOS vs 40k. The rangers, for example, get stackable passive auras, stratagems, doctrinas, and two forge world bonuses rather than 1.

A unit of 19 Mars rangers can decide, "You know what, I'd really like to kill something. Let's do just that", declare the relevant doctrina and canticle, and

-up their shots per model to 3
-hit on 2s, with 2 rerolls
-wound on 4s, with a bonus mortal wound on 6s, with 1 reroll
-save on 4s, ignoring cover if they decided they wanted the 5pt upgrade to always ignore light cover

and just cheerfully deal 20 wounds to those space marines.

The lumineth? They can make themselves +1 to hit, upping their max potential damage to 6.66.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and because I know what Daed is going to say here - yes, that is a quarter of your CP, a limited resource, but it does enable you to neatly remove 10% of your opponent's army with one single shooting attack with 30" range ignoring Light Cover, and it isnt even taking into account what any of your other units can accomplish in that turn. You've used 150pts/2000pts in your army and your opponent is down 200pts. The fact that you're able to amp up your big combo-wombo units by blowing all your CP in one go to force your opponent to shovel 50% of his army off the board in a single turn is not a good feature that 40k has.


Your math is off.
Sentinels don't need to cast a power to give themselves an MW on 6.
They do so by default. When they cast the power, they do MW on 5.
That's why they don't care about firing at 30", since they care only about the 5 and 6 to hit. They don't care about hitting on 3+ or 4+. They don't care about the -1 AP.
When firing at a target with 10 arrows, 3.33 will be MW with no other effect. Then the other arrows will cause 1 or 2 saves at AP 0 or 1... you don't care about those.
Also, there is no char protection aside from a -1 to hit in AoS, so guess what... they don't care about that one too. They only need the unmodified 5 and 6s. They are incredibly good char killers. If a char is within 30" of 2 of those units (LOS ignoring), he is dead. Just pure MW spam.

Now, you won't get full leafblower lists in AoS, and that's for the reason you said. Less stackable buffs, especially now in 3th edition (2th edition was worse than 40K in that regard).
One thing to consider though is that Overwatch in AoS is a lot stronger. It works even if you are not the unit charged, and it fires at just -1 to hit. I have seen 400 points of models being destroyed in a single overwatch.

So, obviously they are different games with different dynamics, but make no mistake. Shooting in AoS is very scary, just for different reasons than in 40K.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

I have to say that even it all the math ot The_Scotsman is true, Sentinels feel extremely opressive in AoS in a way not many units feel in 40k.

It helps that 40k tables are normally played with proper terrain and AoS still uses by the most part fantasy-like tables.

Lethality in AoS is not lower than in 40k. Everything that touches anything makes it explode. And shooting units exist in just two states: They are useless or they are so good and oppresive than can basically single handely win the game with a double turn and you can't do nothing, not even protect your characters.

No leafblowers lists in aos? then what are tzeentch and kharadron armies? (My knowledge probably is a little outdated at this point but whatever) As an ogre, khorne and minotaur player, I know my armies have always been middle-low tier but feth that. At no point in time 40k has felt less "fair" to play than AoS, even if you are just hidding behind terrain and scoring objetives.

AoS is so much simpler than the mathematics behind lists matter so much more. The unwinabble scenarios are much more common.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/25 11:19:38


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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Rather than damage shouldn't you talk about expected percentage of points return?

The issue in 40k is that getting a 40%ish return is relatively standard. 2000 points will quite reliably kill 800 points if it can "see" 800 points worth of stuff. Many units manage more due to a range of buffs. You can try to protect yourself with your own stratagems - things like Transhuman, minuses to hit etc, but this can be more limited. I'm not going to count - but I feel there are considerably more damage boosting stratagems than debuffing stratagems.

So 500 points of Marines is very likely to pop 3 destroyers+10 Skitarri at 200 points. The fact you've given them a load of extra stuff so they cost 260 does nothing to change this - except rather than a 40% return, they are now getting a 52% return.
   
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 Shrapnelsmile wrote:
.

My question -- in even small 40K matches, 500 or 1,000 points, should there still be fully blocked fire lanes?



My almost 20y experience with this game says that open fire lanes should be a rarity rather than a norm for the game to be about more than just dice rolling and who has better stats on guns.
   
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... what if terrain was tooled up to strip the mechanics that amplify shooting? Removing rerolls, blunting AP characteristics or guaranteeing a cover save, etc?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Assuming it’s a viable idea the tricky part would be how the heck you would put those rules on terrain and not require multiple terrain peices intervening or how to have a piece of terrain that doesn’t require multiple paragraphs to explain....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/26 00:35:54


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macluvin wrote:
... what if terrain was tooled up to strip the mechanics that amplify shooting? Removing rerolls, blunting AP characteristics or guaranteeing a cover save, etc?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Assuming it’s a viable idea the tricky part would be how the heck you would put those rules on terrain and not require multiple terrain peices intervening or how to have a piece of terrain that doesn’t require multiple paragraphs to explain....


"Blunting AP characteristics" is what the +1 to save was supposed to do in the first place, but GW keeps putting more and more and more AP on things, so unless you're planning on starting to give terrain more and more and more +save...

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 AnomanderRake wrote:
macluvin wrote:
... what if terrain was tooled up to strip the mechanics that amplify shooting? Removing rerolls, blunting AP characteristics or guaranteeing a cover save, etc?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Assuming it’s a viable idea the tricky part would be how the heck you would put those rules on terrain and not require multiple terrain peices intervening or how to have a piece of terrain that doesn’t require multiple paragraphs to explain....


"Blunting AP characteristics" is what the +1 to save was supposed to do in the first place, but GW keeps putting more and more and more AP on things, so unless you're planning on starting to give terrain more and more and more +save...


So go with the 4+ cover save? Maybe a rule that cuts AP in half or limits it to -1? It seems like the solution is really to scale back AP and make damage more expensive to inflict. Regardless, if we are discussing how to hypothetically change a system to improve it we need not be confined to boxes.

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macluvin wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
macluvin wrote:
... what if terrain was tooled up to strip the mechanics that amplify shooting? Removing rerolls, blunting AP characteristics or guaranteeing a cover save, etc?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Assuming it’s a viable idea the tricky part would be how the heck you would put those rules on terrain and not require multiple terrain peices intervening or how to have a piece of terrain that doesn’t require multiple paragraphs to explain....


"Blunting AP characteristics" is what the +1 to save was supposed to do in the first place, but GW keeps putting more and more and more AP on things, so unless you're planning on starting to give terrain more and more and more +save...


So go with the 4+ cover save? Maybe a rule that cuts AP in half or limits it to -1? It seems like the solution is really to scale back AP and make damage more expensive to inflict. Regardless, if we are discussing how to hypothetically change a system to improve it we need not be confined to boxes.


Eh. To me GW can and will break 100% of systems with power creep; there is no core-system fix for what's fundamentally a stat-assigning problem.

In my own systems I tend to favor making cover a to-hit penalty just because there's so much piled onto the save step in Warhammer (armor, AP, AP modifiers, save modifiers, Invulnerable saves...) and not that much in the to-hit step.

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I agree that cover doesn't provide enough of a bonus.
In the other thread I proposed that all cover types should add 1 to the save roll, and then have an additional effect. Dense -1 to hit, Light Ignore AP-1, Heavy reduce attacks.

This way cover matters a bit more.
   
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Spoletta wrote:
I agree that cover doesn't provide enough of a bonus.
In the other thread I proposed that all cover types should add 1 to the save roll, and then have an additional effect. Dense -1 to hit, Light Ignore AP-1, Heavy reduce attacks.

This way cover matters a bit more.
^I could get behind that.

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EDIT: Wrong thread! Too many windows open!


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/26 04:18:05


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