Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

ccs wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:
I mean, now that I can make Talos that look actually distinct like the unique creations of a mad scientist that theyre supposed to be, I might go ahead and make 4-5 of them.

Cronos, too.

Don't know what it is pts wise, but 9 Talos, 9 Cronos, & an Archon are 98/100PL.

That's what I'm building to in our current Crusade.
Every couple of weeks the PL of the games increase & another full squad of these things hit the table.
So far I'm 3 & 2 (1 early decisive loss to the Guard, 1 recent razor close game that came down to A{1} SM @1w)

I wouldn't go crazy. They're bound to get slapped.

Too late.
$ spent. All models painted & assembled. Fun being had.
And if they change in the future? So what? I'm not like you meta-chasers. I didn't build this because it's rules-awesome. I built it because I realized that 8/9e ALLOWS me to and I think they look cool. I'd have built it even if it were trash. And I'll have fun with it for years to come.

 Gert wrote:

ccs wrote:
So you & they aren't playing the same army at all (other than in name) & yet you're sad that you aren't getting their results.

Look I'm clearly taking the rip here, I couldn't give two hoots what my win rate or stats are. Guess that'll teach me to make a joke

"Competitive" Warhammer 40K players are the worst kind of people to make a joke with.

ccs wrote:
Too late.
$ spent. All models painted & assembled. Fun being had.
And if they change in the future? So what? I'm not like you meta-chasers. I didn't build this because it's rules-awesome. I built it because I realized that 8/9e ALLOWS me to and I think they look cool. I'd have built it even if it were trash. And I'll have fun with it for years to come.

Fair enough, but I'm no meta chaser.

ccs wrote:
All models painted & assembled. Fun being had.

You monster.

ccs wrote:

And if they change in the future? So what? I'm not like you meta-chasers. I didn't build this because it's rules-awesome. I built it because I realized that 8/9e ALLOWS me to and I think they look cool. I'd have built it even if it were trash. And I'll have fun with it for years to come.

Unless they go the ork buggies route. Or mek gunz.

3x3 talos still seems reasonable to me but limiting the pain engines to one unit of 1-3 talos one of 1-3 cronos isn't really that impossible if they continue to dominate the tournament scene. I hope not though as I love coven heavy drukhari armies.

 Blackie wrote:

ccs wrote:

And if they change in the future? So what? I'm not like you meta-chasers. I didn't build this because it's rules-awesome. I built it because I realized that 8/9e ALLOWS me to and I think they look cool. I'd have built it even if it were trash. And I'll have fun with it for years to come.

Unless they go the ork buggies route. Or mek gunz.

3x3 talos still seems reasonable to me but limiting the pain engines to one unit of 1-3 talos one of 1-3 cronos isn't really that impossible if they continue to dominate the tournament scene. I hope not though as I love coven heavy drukhari armies.

It won't matter for Crusade though.

 Blackie wrote:

ccs wrote:

And if they change in the future? So what? I'm not like you meta-chasers. I didn't build this because it's rules-awesome. I built it because I realized that 8/9e ALLOWS me to and I think they look cool. I'd have built it even if it were trash. And I'll have fun with it for years to come.

Unless they go the ork buggies route. Or mek gunz.

3x3 talos still seems reasonable to me but limiting the pain engines to one unit of 1-3 talos one of 1-3 cronos isn't really that impossible if they continue to dominate the tournament scene. I hope not though as I love coven heavy drukhari armies.

I'd rather just balance them like they should have been from the start of the DE book. Why is the HWB same as a HL and a Splinter pod? the Pods and HWBs are trash, they completely ruined the HWB.

Heat Lances should be 10pts and the Ichor should be 5pts, strait free MW's is kind of silly. Thats 15pts on top of the 100pts they are now, you might not take Ichors but you will take HL's still, so thats 90pts more if you take 9 of them. If you take the super combo Gauntlet, Ichor, HL's, thats 120pts each, meaning its 20pts more than base build, so 9 of those is another 180pts.

Over all its not that big of a nerf, but combine with Wracks +1 point you will be 200pts down what is normal and will ahve to change something, or just have 2 less Talos.


PS: I hate the Buggy changes, I hate how they did that. I would rather them just make them units of 1, or raise the points. Upping the points is better bc they still are insanely cheap for what they do.

 Blackie wrote:

ccs wrote:

And if they change in the future? So what? I'm not like you meta-chasers. I didn't build this because it's rules-awesome. I built it because I realized that 8/9e ALLOWS me to and I think they look cool. I'd have built it even if it were trash. And I'll have fun with it for years to come.

Unless they go the ork buggies route. Or mek gunz.

3x3 talos still seems reasonable to me but limiting the pain engines to one unit of 1-3 talos one of 1-3 cronos isn't really that impossible if they continue to dominate the tournament scene. I hope not though as I love coven heavy drukhari armies.

1) Well then, even though our 9e games DO regularly involve pts/PL/the detachment system/battle forging etc, I guess it's a good thing that I rarely play "Matched Play" isn't it?

90-some % of all my 9e games have been some sort of Open/Narrative/Crusade. I'm largely not affected by the matched play crap the rest of you choose to swallow for your casual day to day gaming.
For the few matched play games? I've got plenty if armies, so it's no big deal if one of them doesn't fit that format.
And I'm not a tourney player.
I don't see any of that changing.
So yes, my fun WILL continue.

2) I've said this before, but I'll say it again.
I play games in the here & now. I don't worry about what changes might come later. If some future rule renders what I've built crap? Or even invalid?
I'll deal with it then. Until then though there's games to be played.

about Necrons. I think they rank poorly because players invest a lot points into things that pay off in the lategame if ever.

I think a minimum of combat HQs is better.

 Manchild 1984 wrote:
about Necrons. I think they rank poorly because players invest a lot points into things that pay off in the lategame if ever.

Could you elaborate a little on this?

 Toofast wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Playing Kabals instead of Cults and Covens I suppose
Not like I play competitively but when everyone was going around saying DE were amazing and non-stop winning I looked at my sad unpainted models and was like "bruh".

At one time Eldar were the best army to ever hit a table, but only if you took jetbikes and WKs. If you didn't take any of those units, your army was probably bottom tier. Just because a codex is good doesn't mean you can use your favorite models or whatever you have lying around and table your opponents. It's really easy for the same codex to have a list that's totally broken and other lists that will struggle to win a game.

Gotta be honest...this is the most insanely wrong comment i've read today. In 7th jetbikes/WK were the easy mode army for games, but the super competitive armies weren't even bringing those. In that edition you also had D-Cannon Wraithguard, Warp Spiders doing their shenanigans, Fire dragons being the best anti-tank unit in the game, and Dark reapers jumping around the board not to even touch on the psychic shenanigans they routinely brought to the game....hell, the Eldar psychic phase used to last longer then their shooting phase. The only "Bad" units were a couple of the aspect warrior squads and they weren't even "bad" they were just massively over powered by everything else in the codex.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Toofast wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Playing Kabals instead of Cults and Covens I suppose
Not like I play competitively but when everyone was going around saying DE were amazing and non-stop winning I looked at my sad unpainted models and was like "bruh".

At one time Eldar were the best army to ever hit a table, but only if you took jetbikes and WKs. If you didn't take any of those units, your army was probably bottom tier. Just because a codex is good doesn't mean you can use your favorite models or whatever you have lying around and table your opponents. It's really easy for the same codex to have a list that's totally broken and other lists that will struggle to win a game.

Gotta be honest...this is the most insanely wrong comment i've read today. In 7th jetbikes/WK were the easy mode army for games, but the super competitive armies weren't even bringing those. In that edition you also had D-Cannon Wraithguard, Warp Spiders doing their shenanigans, Fire dragons being the best anti-tank unit in the game, and Dark reapers jumping around the board not to even touch on the psychic shenanigans they routinely brought to the game....hell, the Eldar psychic phase used to last longer then their shooting phase. The only "Bad" units were a couple of the aspect warrior squads and they weren't even "bad" they were just massively over powered by everything else in the codex.

I thought he must be thinking of 6th edition. Were Jetbikes OP in 6th? I know Wraithknights were OP in 6th.

 vipoid wrote:

 Manchild 1984 wrote:
about Necrons. I think they rank poorly because players invest a lot points into things that pay off in the lategame if ever.

Could you elaborate a little on this?

Its the general idea of "net present value" or "money now is better then money later"
- Everyones favorit Resurrection Orb needs to more then 30 points to cut even. If you use it say turn 4ish it needs to bring back 100ish points to have an impact on a 5 turn game.
This is IF you live that long and IF you have a unit in range and IF that unit wasn't complete destroyed within a single round (check Bridgers Necron Warrior blobs)
- Living Metal would need many turns to really have a big impact, take it as upside, don't focus on it.
I have more examples, but the worst offender is Orikan the diviner with his The Stars are Right meme.

so the mtg card Keldon Halbedier https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=509538 would be fine turn 1 or 2... not turn 5

 Manchild 1984 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Manchild 1984 wrote:
about Necrons. I think they rank poorly because players invest a lot points into things that pay off in the lategame if ever.

Could you elaborate a little on this?

Its the general idea of "net present value" or "money now is better then money later"
- Everyones favorit Resurrection Orb needs to more then 30 points to cut even. If you use it say turn 4ish it needs to bring back 100ish points to have an impact on a 5 turn game.
This is IF you live that long and IF you have a unit in range and IF that unit wasn't complete destroyed within a single round (check Bridgers Necron Warrior blobs)
- Living Metal would need many turns to really have a big impact, take it as upside, don't focus on it.

Nope, just 1. Wich one becomes evident when the opponent does juuust enough damage that my ____ would've been removed - had I not healed that 1 pt on my turn.
The big impact is that I get to fight back/continue to hold the objective/unleash some sort of shooty hell/continue to tie up an enemy unit/etc.

 Manchild 1984 wrote:
I have more examples, but the worst offender is Orikan the diviner with his The Stars are Right meme.

Please, expound.

to
to ccs

 Manchild 1984 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Manchild 1984 wrote:
about Necrons. I think they rank poorly because players invest a lot points into things that pay off in the lategame if ever.

Could you elaborate a little on this?

Its the general idea of "net present value" or "money now is better then money later"
- Everyones favorit Resurrection Orb needs to more then 30 points to cut even. If you use it say turn 4ish it needs to bring back 100ish points to have an impact on a 5 turn game.
This is IF you live that long and IF you have a unit in range and IF that unit wasn't complete destroyed within a single round (check Bridgers Necron Warrior blobs)
- Living Metal would need many turns to really have a big impact, take it as upside, don't focus on it.
I have more examples, but the worst offender is Orikan the diviner with his The Stars are Right meme.

so the mtg card Keldon Halbedier https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=509538 would be fine turn 1 or 2... not turn 5

Ah, I get you now. Thanks for explaining that.

 Manchild 1984 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Manchild 1984 wrote:
about Necrons. I think they rank poorly because players invest a lot points into things that pay off in the lategame if ever.

Could you elaborate a little on this?

Its the general idea of "net present value" or "money now is better then money later"
- Everyones favorit Resurrection Orb needs to more then 30 points to cut even. If you use it say turn 4ish it needs to bring back 100ish points to have an impact on a 5 turn game.
This is IF you live that long and IF you have a unit in range and IF that unit wasn't complete destroyed within a single round (check Bridgers Necron Warrior blobs)

Res Orbs lets you get instant movement on an ObSec unit in the Command phase, before you count which objectives you control.

 Manchild 1984 wrote:
Orikan Empowered is a very small upside and makes the unit bad. I might play him if he would start empowered and costed 70 points.

Did you play AdMech before they got nerfed?

-3M +1WS +3 S/T +2 A is worth at least 20 points and Chronomancers are already pretty good. At most Orikan is 20 pts overcosted at the moment, which would make him garbage if you thought that, but saying he is 40 pts overcosted and should get extra buffs is crazy.

I can see the use for "Master Chronomancer" on Praetorians (no dynasty).

My point with Orikian Empowered is still "too little too late"