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 BertBert wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:

 BertBert wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:


If fascism is the last bastion between humanity and extinction, we deserve extinction.

We've prevailed against fascism more than one time, so I'd rather take my chances being alive.

Edit: This must be one of the worst takes I've seen in a long time.

You must not be paying attention, then.

Honest question, no hard feelings:

Given the set of priorities you've just outlined, should humanity just get eaten by the nids at this stage? Or are you still hoping for some sort of redemption down the line?

I don't know. I don't know that I believe that fascism IS the last bastion of humanity. IF there is a chance for redemption, IF fascism is NOT the last bastion, then humanity should fight. If it IS, however, humanity should curl up and collapse in on itself and let someone or something else have a turn.

 Octopoid wrote:

I don't know. I don't know that I believe that fascism IS the last bastion of humanity. IF there is a chance for redemption, IF fascism is NOT the last bastion, then humanity should fight. If it IS, however, humanity should curl up and collapse in on itself and let someone or something else have a turn.

Fair enough, thanks for being honest.

 BertBert wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:

 BertBert wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:


If fascism is the last bastion between humanity and extinction, we deserve extinction.

We've prevailed against fascism more than one time, so I'd rather take my chances being alive.

Edit: This must be one of the worst takes I've seen in a long time.

You must not be paying attention, then.

Honest question, no hard feelings:

Given the set of priorities you've just outlined, should humanity just get eaten by the nids at this stage? Or are you still hoping for some sort of redemption down the line?

It would be a mercy kill, undoubtedly. I don't expect the guy with a Black Templar avatar to understand, but the Imperium brings untold suffering without and within. It's impossible to quantify; the scale of systematic cruelty is so vast. There are heroic individuals within the system, such as Marneus Calgar or Logan Grimnar, but they are the way they are in spite of the Imperium. Not because of it.

Every Space Wolf I paint represents an incomprehensible injustice. He represents not only the personal tragedy of taking a child from his family and subjecting him to grueling tests, batteries of painful augmentations. But he represents the cultural tragedy of Fenris. A world that is deliberately kept as a hell-world, its people denied even the chance to advance by their circumstances. Part of the blame lies on the Space Wolves, partly on the Imperium.

I feel like everyone forgot what Avitus said in his traitor mission.

 RaptorusRex wrote:


It would be a mercy kill, undoubtedly. I don't expect the guy with a Black Templar avatar to understand, but the Imperium brings untold suffering without and within. It's impossible to quantify; the scale of systematic cruelty is so vast. There are heroic individuals within the system, such as Marneus Calgar or Logan Grimnar, but they are the way they are in spite of the Imperium. Not because of it.

Every Space Wolf I paint represents an incomprehensible injustice. He represents not only the personal tragedy of taking a child from his family and subjecting him to grueling tests, batteries of painful augmentations. But he represents the cultural tragedy of Fenris. A world that is deliberately kept as a hell-world, its people denied even the chance to advance by their circumstances. Part of the blame lies on the Space Wolves, partly on the Imperium.

I had a kroot avatar before this one, if you prefer a more...spiritual outlook. I've also never argued that the Imperium is not a hideous place, so I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

 BertBert wrote:
No, but the SS was also not the last bastion between humanity and extinction. The context is not quite the same.

When you regard the people you're fighting against as subhuman, the fight is seen the same way. Even if everyone in the Imperium died, there'd still be Chaos worlds, a few independent worlds, and the humans living under the Tau. So really, what you're saying is never true, it's just that the Imperium sees those other humans as absolute scum. Very similar to the SS, really.

Hecaton wrote:

 BertBert wrote:
No, but the SS was also not the last bastion between humanity and extinction. The context is not quite the same.

When you regard the people you're fighting against as subhuman, the fight is seen the same way. Even if everyone in the Imperium died, there'd still be Chaos worlds, a few independent worlds, and the humans living under the Tau. So really, what you're saying is never true, it's just that the Imperium sees those other humans as absolute scum. Very similar to the SS, really.

Granted, some outcomes may still allow for parts of humanity to survive, others wouldn't. Depends on who comes out on top, I guess. I also agree that the underlying principles are similarly reprehensible in a vacuum, but in context the stakes are different and so, in turn, is the ability to justify them.
Exterminatus can be a reasonable or necessary measure in 40k – even for a detached observer such as us who is not subject to SM level indoctrination. You couldn't make the same case for the atrocities of WW2.

 BertBert wrote:
in context the stakes are different and so, in turn, is the ability to justify them.

I disagree. The Astartes are the "heroes" defending the Imperium's way of life, not humanity. It's not like they wouldn't massacre Tau-aligned civilians as soon as they got the chance.

 BertBert wrote:

Exterminatus can be a reasonable or necessary measure in 40k – even for a detached observer such as us who is not subject to SM level indoctrination. You couldn't make the same case for the atrocities of WW2.

There are people who make the argument that forcing the surrender of the Japanese via the use of nuclear weapons saved more lives than it cost because of the massive amount of casualties that would have been incurred on an invasion of the home islands.

Hecaton wrote:

 BertBert wrote:

Exterminatus can be a reasonable or necessary measure in 40k – even for a detached observer such as us who is not subject to SM level indoctrination. You couldn't make the same case for the atrocities of WW2.

There are people who make the argument that forcing the surrender of the Japanese via the use of nuclear weapons saved more lives than it cost because of the massive amount of casualties that would have been incurred on an invasion of the home islands.

I have to admit I'm not informed about that particular issue and whether or not there is actual merit to that position.

What I was referring to were the atrocities committed by the SS across Europe, since that was the analogue we were discussing.

By the way, could someone explain the context of this to me?

I've seen quite a few posters allude to a specific tournament player who presumably did . . . something? But I have no idea what that something actually was.

Is anyone able to enlighten me on what this individual did that apparently sparked all this off?

 BertBert wrote:
What I was referring to were the atrocities committed by the SS across Europe, since that was the analogue we were discussing.

From what I can remember, Exterminatus is mainly used in response to Tyranids, or a total loss to a demonic invasion. If the Imperium is Exterminatus'ing planets that they are likely to lose to the Tau, for example, then it would be more analogous to what the SS was doing when they wiped out villages in Italy or whatever.

 vipoid wrote:
By the way, could someone explain the context of this to me?

I've seen quite a few posters allude to a specific tournament player who presumably did . . . something? But I have no idea what that something actually was.

Is anyone able to enlighten me on what this individual did that apparently sparked all this off?

He showed up to a tournament wearing literal Nazi symbology.

 vipoid wrote:
By the way, could someone explain the context of this to me?

I've seen quite a few posters allude to a specific tournament player who presumably did . . . something? But I have no idea what that something actually was.

Is anyone able to enlighten me on what this individual did that apparently sparked all this off?

Dakka thread here

 Octopoid wrote:


He showed up to a tournament wearing literal Nazi symbology.

And apparently was not removed from the tournament as a result, which is the actual absurdity. People who refused to play against him, were considered to have resigned and awarded a loss.

I dont think we need to do this again for the fifth time in a month.