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Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Why can't Forgeworld just use full 3D printing if its just a small operation of enthusiasts? I honestly think plastic is a far superior technology than resin. Not sure why it is necessary to stay in resin at all really.

This is about adopting new technology really. For mass retail, plastic is the way to go. And I would think that as a business, you always want to sell as many models as possible.

Even if its considered a "premium" sculpt for forgeworld. Then I still consider using 3D printing to do it far superior to using resin for the models.
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





Eldenfirefly wrote:
Why can't Forgeworld just use full 3D printing if its just a small operation of enthusiasts? I honestly think plastic is a far superior technology than resin. Not sure why it is necessary to stay in resin at all really.

This is about adopting new technology really. For mass retail, plastic is the way to go. And I would think that as a business, you always want to sell as many models as possible.


FW isn't mass retail, only when something looks like it's going to be popular enough to port over to plastic does it happen. Technology has improved but it's still a much bigger investment. That's why resin is still so popular amongst smaller manufacturers (and FW is the small enthusiast wing of GW).

Even if its considered a "premium" sculpt for forgeworld. Then I still consider using 3D printing to do it far superior to using resin for the models.


Good 3D printers (not the cheap consumer variety) are still expensive and a hell of a lot slower than producing resin models. Some studios 3D print their masters externally and then cast in resin anyway because it's so much faster. That's increasingly true of the larger models that FW is renowned for.

I also don't think 3D printing is superior to resin casting, based on what I've seen at least.

Also, I'm not convinced 3D printed models will be good long term, people talk a lot about "over curing" UV resin, which makes me worried in 5 or 10 years time the resin will have degraded and just snap.

FW have actually started using 3D printed masters, and it's to the detriment of the model, I made a post over on the Specialist Games forum bitching about poor quality Arvus Lighters that were clearly recast off 3D printed masters, complete with unnecessary supports and ridge lines / striations.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/27 04:31:10


 
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

I've had a few models (not FW) that have had 3D printing artefacts visible too. Only layer lines, nothing physical that should have been removed prior to casting.

They entirely disappeared once the models were primed (and with a light, airbrush primer too, nothing thick) and I felt it was more testament to the fidelity of the cast rather than a problem. If there'd been left over support material I daresay I may have felt differently.

But to suggest FW switch to 3D I think shows an underestimation of exactly the volume of models they're selling, even as the "boutique" element of GW, and how massively complex that would be in comparison to the casting they do now.

It would just be nice if they invested some of the premium they charge over even other boutique resin casters in refining the process.

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Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 Azreal13 wrote:
I've had a few models (not FW) that have had 3D printing artefacts visible too. Only layer lines, nothing physical that should have been removed prior to casting.

They entirely disappeared once the models were primed (and with a light, airbrush primer too, nothing thick) and I felt it was more testament to the fidelity of the cast rather than a problem. If there'd been left over support material I daresay I may have felt differently.

I'm hoping they go away, I'll probably get a chance to prime them this weekend and see, but the texture is noticeable when I run my finger over it. It's not as bad as when I print something on my own printer at home, but not a hell of a lot better. We'll see, maybe I'm bitching about nothing. But it does remind me of the recent criticisms of the poor quality Necrons in the new Aeronautica Imperialis kits and made me think is it poor quality because they're being limited by their 3D printers rather than their sculptors.

But to suggest FW switch to 3D I think shows an underestimation of exactly the volume of models they're selling, even as the "boutique" element of GW, and how massively complex that would be in comparison to the casting they do now.

It would just be nice if they invested some of the premium they charge over even other boutique resin casters in refining the process.


Yeah, I imagine FW currently lie part way between "3D printing is too slow" and "mass produced plastic is too expensive". I believe FW have only shifted a few hundred Mantas, compare that to companies like Tamiya or Airfix who make large aircraft models but have a handful of models in every hobby store in every city in nearly every country.

   
Made in fi
5th God of Chaos (O'rly?)





Eldenfirefly wrote:
If forgeworld switches over to plastic, I would consider buying some forgeworld even if its more expensive. But it of course depends on whether I like the model kit itself as well.


Seeing point of fw is do kits that wouldn't be profitable in plastic...you expect gw to set division intentionally to lose money? Looooool!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
Why can't Forgeworld just use full 3D printing if its just a small operation of enthusiasts? I honestly think plastic is a far superior technology than resin. Not sure why it is necessary to stay in resin at all really.

This is about adopting new technology really. For mass retail, plastic is the way to go. And I would think that as a business, you always want to sell as many models as possible.

Even if its considered a "premium" sculpt for forgeworld. Then I still consider using 3D printing to do it far superior to using resin for the models.


Details for one. Every material has it'# strong and weak points.

Btw gw's plastic obsession is why we have 30e charactei models for simple humans with less room for details, no options and monopose.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/27 04:52:43


2022 painted/bought: 227/322 
   
Made in gb
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





For the record I prefer plastic, for all the reasons one might think. Back in the day I was willing to go to the extra lengths to make resin work, but these days I generally want minimum frustration in what's supposed to be a relaxing hobby. I still generally put a lot of effort into my painting (which can be frustrating) but I've crossed the line of tolerating it in cleaning / building minis.
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





JWBS wrote:
For the record I prefer plastic, for all the reasons one might think. Back in the day I was willing to go to the extra lengths to make resin work, but these days I generally want minimum frustration in what's supposed to be a relaxing hobby. I still generally put a lot of effort into my painting (which can be frustrating) but I've crossed the line of tolerating it in cleaning / building minis.


In the end I prefer plastic too, but the difference to me isn't massive (barring miscasts) and I'm more the willing to put up with resin if the end result is a crispier detailed model, especially if we're talking about elite troops, characters and display models.
   
Made in fi
5th God of Chaos (O'rly?)





JWBS wrote:
For the record I prefer plastic, for all the reasons one might think. Back in the day I was willing to go to the extra lengths to make resin work, but these days I generally want minimum frustration in what's supposed to be a relaxing hobby. I still generally put a lot of effort into my painting (which can be frustrating) but I've crossed the line of tolerating it in cleaning / building minis.


Ah yes. Having another glue on shelf is sooooooooooooo stressfull

I take that over bazillion tiny pieces in weird shapes you need to glue to get what resin gets in one piece with better details.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/27 06:41:11


2022 painted/bought: 227/322 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Richmond, VA

Eldenfirefly wrote:
If forgeworld switches over to plastic, I would consider buying some forgeworld even if its more expensive. But it of course depends on whether I like the model kit itself as well.


100% agree. The most disappointing thing about FW reveals is learning they are from Forgeworld and therefore useless for kitbashing and insanely overpriced. Resin is an easy miss for me. Plastic is just a better medium all around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
JWBS wrote:
For the record I prefer plastic, for all the reasons one might think. Back in the day I was willing to go to the extra lengths to make resin work, but these days I generally want minimum frustration in what's supposed to be a relaxing hobby. I still generally put a lot of effort into my painting (which can be frustrating) but I've crossed the line of tolerating it in cleaning / building minis.


Amen to that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/27 07:25:50


 
   
Made in es
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps






Eldenfirefly wrote:
Well, my experience ...

GW plastic kits ... always fit. little to no filing needed, no cleaning needed either.


I have assembled SM Land Speeders, you know
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







 Scottywan82 wrote:
100% agree. The most disappointing thing about FW reveals is learning they are from Forgeworld and therefore useless for kitbashing and insanely overpriced. Resin is an easy miss for me. Plastic is just a better medium all around.

Depends on the kit you're looking at, especially if it doesn't require a GW plastic kit as part of it - and especially if you're only comparing to GW prices, as opposed to other companies on the market.

Most of the human-scale single characters for the likes of Blood Bowl or Necromunda are around the same price point as a GW character clampack these days - when he goes up for pre-order, plastic Darkstrider is likely to be between £20 and £25, for example. A model you're only going to need one of in your collection. Individual human-size Star Players for Blood Bowl range from £19 to £21 at the moment. Necromunda Hired Guns have a little more variation, but the most expensive individual human-scale one looks to be £24, so still cheaper than Jain Zar.

Despite things moving from metal (or Finecast) to plastic, the prices of kits have kept rising, to the point where you can't really call a Forge World kit "insanely overpriced" without doing the same to the GW kits...

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
Made in gb
Fanatic with Madcap Mushrooms







Prices regardless of material are a bit silly with the £20 mark for one 32mm for champs and stuff.

GW doesn't want to deal with the wave of returns due to miscasts probably because theres plenty of that in FW.

I mean in my small experience I got like 1 plastic sprue miscast in 2 decades of shopping, while on FW, which I now refuse to buy, theres always been something there to fix with sculpting.

   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




Miscasts are only a problem with really old kits. I've bought some HH and Lotr models recently and they easily beat GW plastics concerning detail and are on par with Artel W and Wargame Exklusive, which I see as the best models available currently.
   
Made in gb
Moustache-twirling Princeps




United Kingdom

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Miscasts are only a problem with really old kits. I've bought some HH and Lotr models recently and they easily beat GW plastics concerning detail and are on par with Artel W and Wargame Exklusive, which I see as the best models available currently.
Not always - there was a thread recently (that I now can't find) about mold issues with the new AT Armigers.

(And the preview model of the AT Dire Wolf has a few issues, but it might be a prototype- )
Spoiler:

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/01/27 13:12:29


 
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




beast_gts wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Miscasts are only a problem with really old kits. I've bought some HH and Lotr models recently and they easily beat GW plastics concerning detail and are on par with Artel W and Wargame Exklusive, which I see as the best models available currently.
Not always - there was a thread recently (that I now can't find) about mold issues with the new AT Armigers.


Might be singular issues, just because most "easy to build" models from GW suck and need serious work I wouldn't say all of GWs plastics are crap. But it shouldn't happen in either case for the leading manufacturer with premium prices.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Germany

beast_gts wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Miscasts are only a problem with really old kits. I've bought some HH and Lotr models recently and they easily beat GW plastics concerning detail and are on par with Artel W and Wargame Exklusive, which I see as the best models available currently.
Not always - there was a thread recently (that I now can't find) about mold issues with the new AT Armigers.

(And the preview model of the AT Dire Wolf has a few issues, but it might be a prototype
Spoiler:


A prototype would have very diffrent looking issues, given how GW and FW almost universally 3D print their prototypes and master. This seems to be just bog-standard FW quality control.

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Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







 NAVARRO wrote:
Prices regardless of material are a bit silly with the £20 mark for one 32mm for champs and stuff.

I'd hope my last paragraph addressed that, but, for the sake of being clear - I don't disagree.

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
Made in gb
Fanatic with Madcap Mushrooms







 Dysartes wrote:
 NAVARRO wrote:
Prices regardless of material are a bit silly with the £20 mark for one 32mm for champs and stuff.

I'd hope my last paragraph addressed that, but, for the sake of being clear - I don't disagree.


Yes sorry my comment was more like an attachment to what you said which I agree with.
Long is the time material would determine the price. Either resin production became cheap or the plastics got a lot more expensive.

To reply to the comment that the FW resins are good now and the past is long gone... Its great to know that but I keep hearing really mixed reviews...

   
Made in us
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






Southeastern PA, USA

tneva82 wrote:
JWBS wrote:
For the record I prefer plastic, for all the reasons one might think. Back in the day I was willing to go to the extra lengths to make resin work, but these days I generally want minimum frustration in what's supposed to be a relaxing hobby. I still generally put a lot of effort into my painting (which can be frustrating) but I've crossed the line of tolerating it in cleaning / building minis.


Ah yes. Having another glue on shelf is sooooooooooooo stressfull

I take that over bazillion tiny pieces in weird shapes you need to glue to get what resin gets in one piece with better details.


I think it really just depends on the kit.


Regarding FW quality, the last few things I ordered have been excellent. I know that bad QC happens and have experienced it, but overall I think there's a fair amount of hyperbole about their quality or lack thereof.

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Made in gb
Battlefield Tourist





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

I just remember getting one of the Razorback expansion kits some years ago. literally two components, a gun barrel and mount, and the mount was bent at about 45 degrees.
I keep imagining whoever was working on that just shrugging and putting it into the plastic bag.

I also remember that it had cost marginally less than a Hasegawa plastic kit, that had over 200 pieces, inc. metal etched parts, and went together with the precision of a swiss watch. Beautiful. And it had been imported all of the way from Japan to the UK.

Really shows the power of market forces and competition in improving quality and driving down prices, and what happens when that isn't present.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/28 10:29:07


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Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 Pacific wrote:
I also remember that it had cost marginally less than a Hasegawa plastic kit, that had over 200 pieces, inc. metal etched parts, and went together with the precision of a swiss watch. Beautiful. And it had been imported all of the way from Japan to the UK.

Really shows the power of market forces and competition in improving quality and driving down prices, and what happens when that isn't present.


I don't really see the two as comparable though. The Hasegawa kit is likely sold in great quantities, probably more than most of GW's more large expensive kits let alone FW's kits. FW is more comparable to the resin upgrade kits you might get from Eduard, or the seatbelt kits from HGW. They can also feel like you're paying a lot for not much.

Not to excuse FW's terrible quality control of course, but it's not just competition and market forces that drive the prices, it's a completely different business model.
   
Made in gb
Battlefield Tourist





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

Why are they not comparable? Both are modelling kits and facets of a similar hobby. I agree you might be able to make a case for volumes of sale, but a lot of the plastic kits are relatively niche and difficult to obtain - certainly in someone like Hasegawa's case, a lot of the time you are relying on imports and really have to know what you are after. Looking at GW's profits recently and the amount of ubiquity they seem to be obtaining I wouldn't be surprised if they were pretty close in sales volume.

The point I was trying to make was that if I had bought a Hasegawa kit and it was a heap of excrement - poor fitting, innacurate, expensive, because it is the model of an aircraft or tank (and I guess in the public domain) I can probably go to 3 or 4 other kit producers and find one that is better. This is almost certainly what happened in the 70s and 80s, where the introduction of the Japanese kit builders forced the likes of Airfix and Heller to get their act together and improve quality, or go out of the kit making business altogether - more modern releases by Airfix in particular are excellent and that's a direct result of that competition, and all of it means a better experience for consumers.

In FW's case only they can make a Space Marine Land Raider so there is very little impetus at all to provide it at a reasonable cost or ensure that is of good quality, because if I'm a customer and I want those things, it's their way or the highway. Or, the counterfeit way, and as much as I don't agree with it, FW's prices (and quality control) have left the door wide open for both re-casters and 3D printing - that guys producing stuff in their garage and in tiny volumes can make money and still undercut FW by some margin shows what the markup must be on the official products.

Anyway just my thoughts, I don't think there is any way to look at FW prices as being grossly over-inflated for what you are getting, even amongst regular GW offerings, which definitely says something. It feels like FW is in that space held by Airfix in the 80s of being able to release something that's a heap of gak with a cm gap between the wing and fuselage and that's fine, because the mugs can't go anywhere else to get it.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/28 16:19:47


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Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 Pacific wrote:
Why are they not comparable? Both are modelling kits and facets of a similar hobby. I agree you might be able to make a case for volumes of sale, but a lot of the plastic kits are relatively niche and difficult to obtain - certainly in someone like Hasegawa's case, a lot of the time you are relying on imports and really have to know what you are after. Looking at GW's profits recently and the amount of ubiquity they seem to be obtaining I wouldn't be surprised if they were pretty close in sales volume.


Sorry I was talking on a per-kit basis. GW is huge, but they also put out dozens of new kits each year, and we're talking specifically about FW here anyway which is a much smaller wing of GW but they still get out quite a few sets each year.

The likes of Hasegawa and Tamiya and whatnot, they put out a small number of kits each year, but each kit they put a lot of work into, they then mass produce a huge number of that one kit in a single hit, then sell a couple of copies of that single kit to thousands of hobby stores across the globe where they sit on shelves if they're not popular or sell out quickly if they are popular. If they were popular, maybe in 1 or 5 or 10 years time they do another big production run. I dunno which Hasegawa kit you're talking about specifically, Hasegawa is pretty widely available over here but OOP kits can obviously be hard to find.

FW on the other hand, design dozens of kits in a year, they make a few copies of each one by hand, they sell them direct to the public (i.e. they're carrying the burden of unsold product, not 3rd party stores), when they sell out they make a handful more, maybe after a while the master gets damaged and they repair it. FW aren't trying to get a few kits out to a worldwide distribution network of hobby stores, they're trying to produce a diverse range of continuously available models sourced directly from the manufacturer.

It'd be like comparing a Chevy to some custom built Hot Rod, the latter is always going to look like a worser deal due to the different business models.

This is almost certainly what happened in the 70s and 80s, where the introduction of the Japanese kit builders forced the likes of Airfix and Heller to get their act together and improve quality, or go out of the kit making business altogether - more modern releases by Airfix in particular are excellent and that's a direct result of that competition, and all of it means a better experience for consumers.
FWIW, GW have massively improved their production quality of plastic kits over the past 20 years also.

In FW's case only they can make a Space Marine Land Raider so there is very little impetus at all to provide it at a reasonable cost or ensure that is of good quality, because if I'm a customer and I want those things, it's their way or the highway. Or, the counterfeit way, and as much as I don't agree with it, FW's prices (and quality control) have left the door wide open for both re-casters and 3D printing - that guys producing stuff in their garage and in tiny volumes can make money and still undercut FW by some margin shows what the markup must be on the official products.


And garage operations have far less overheads. They aren't paying the designers, they aren't paying for a warehouse, they aren't paying for additional staff to do the casting until their business gets big enough to warrant it. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if most of them aren't paying taxes on their sales Even then, they come and go.

It feels like FW is in that space held by Airfix in the 80s of being able to release something that's a heap of gak with a cm gap between the wing and fuselage and that's fine, because the mugs can't go anywhere else to get it.


At this point I think anyone who buys FW still knows what they're getting themselves in for. If people keep buying it, it says to me the people who buy FW are less concerned about such issues than regular wargamers.

Anyway just my thoughts, I don't think there is any way to look at FW prices as being grossly over-inflated for what you are getting, even amongst regular GW offerings, which definitely says something.


I'm certainly not going to say FW is anything other than overpriced with poor quality control. I just don't see the benefit in comparing apples with oranges. It's just building a straw man for others to break down when we start comparing FW to Airfix or Tamiya or Hasegawa. It's like comparing Mazda to Morgan, sure, they're technically both "car manufacturers", but there's limited value in making more than a surface level a comparison.



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/29 02:22:50


 
   
Made in gb
Moustache-twirling Princeps




United Kingdom

Well, they're up. They're same price as from FW, and have a few "warnings" on them:

Resin kit – to be undertaken by confident and experienced Warhammer hobbyists only

This modelling kit is not a toy – it is a collectible item and construction should only be undertaken by expert Warhammer hobbyists aged 15 years and over.


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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/29 11:04:27


 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





beast_gts wrote:
Well, they're up. They're same price as from FW, and have a few "warnings" on them:

Resin kit – to be undertaken by confident and experienced Warhammer hobbyists only

This modelling kit is not a toy – it is a collectible item and construction should only be undertaken by expert Warhammer hobbyists aged 15 years and over.


T’au Tiger Shark AX-1-0, XV107 R'varna Battlesuit & XV109 Y'vahra Battlesuit

KX139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour - Body, Fusion Eradicator, Tri-axis Ion Cannon, Pulse Ordnance Multi-driver & Nexus Missile System.


Only on the UK store though? Couldn't find the same items on the Oz or US stores.
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran




AllSeeingSkink wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
Well, they're up. They're same price as from FW, and have a few "warnings" on them:

Resin kit – to be undertaken by confident and experienced Warhammer hobbyists only

This modelling kit is not a toy – it is a collectible item and construction should only be undertaken by expert Warhammer hobbyists aged 15 years and over.


T’au Tiger Shark AX-1-0, XV107 R'varna Battlesuit & XV109 Y'vahra Battlesuit

KX139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour - Body, Fusion Eradicator, Tri-axis Ion Cannon, Pulse Ordnance Multi-driver & Nexus Missile System.


Only on the UK store though? Couldn't find the same items on the Oz or US stores.


From the Startpost

* These products will not be available through games-workshop.com in the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, or China.
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





RazorEdge wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
Well, they're up. They're same price as from FW, and have a few "warnings" on them:

Resin kit – to be undertaken by confident and experienced Warhammer hobbyists only

This modelling kit is not a toy – it is a collectible item and construction should only be undertaken by expert Warhammer hobbyists aged 15 years and over.


T’au Tiger Shark AX-1-0, XV107 R'varna Battlesuit & XV109 Y'vahra Battlesuit

KX139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour - Body, Fusion Eradicator, Tri-axis Ion Cannon, Pulse Ordnance Multi-driver & Nexus Missile System.


Only on the UK store though? Couldn't find the same items on the Oz or US stores.


From the Startpost

* These products will not be available through games-workshop.com in the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, or China.


Must have missed that when I skimmed over it. If that's the case, is buying direct from FW a problem in the UK anyway? I imagine they'd have reasonably quick shipping within the UK.
   
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Free shipping treshoid lower at gw site and gw site vouchers can be used

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Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





It seems a little strange how the descriptions say:

This modelling kit is not a toy – it is a collectible item and construction should only be undertaken by expert Warhammer hobbyists aged 15 years and over.


The wording of this sort of implies they consider their normal GW kits "toys"?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/29 14:40:31


 
   
 
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