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Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 bbb wrote:
As far as big threats/events. Some from the comics we have left could be:

Galactus
Doctor Doom
Kree/Skrull war
Avengers vs X-Men
Secret Invasion


Pretty sure that last one is already slated for a show or something.

Kree/Skrull is, I guess a thing? It is already present in the MCU, but was ~30 years ago. Making it interesting would be tricky, given how many times Agents of Shield dipped into the Kree well for plot points, and its essentially 2 NPC factions fighting.

Avengers vs X-men... bleh. Basically civil war again, but with a slightly different cast.

Galactus and Doom are just recurring villains. Which would be nice to have recurring villains, but there needs to be a story attached.

LunarSol wrote:Nah. The Cosmic Cube is its own McGuffin Red Skull has chased in the comics for decades with no relation to the Infinity Stones. It's cute to make it important retroactively, but there's zero reason to assume that was the plan going in. The Aether is even flimsier. It actually has an origin in Thor 2 as a creation of Malekith and really has no indication of being intended as the Reality stone until they started reaching back. The only one that's even a little clean is Loki's scepter, but even that feels like something that was decided after the fact. None of these things telegraphed Infinity Gauntlet in any meaningful way. They just got retconned into the story later.


This is one of those areas where I think going back to 'but in comics' is problematic, and the MCU is really its own thing. It doesn't really matter what happened in the comics and how deep people can dive based on their personal knowledge (or wikipedia). At this point, those are the Infinity stones, and every movie treats them as important for that reason. If the comic source disagrees, it doesn't really matter, in the exact same way that it doesn't matter that Tony was captured by Afghan rebels rather than Contras.

 AduroT wrote:
Rogers seems to be dead as well.

Meh. There are at least half-a-dozen ways around that as an 'end' for Rogers (including several ways that's a fake Rogers and just jabbing him with extra super soldier juice), and the writers (after the movie aired) had several different opinions on how that scene even worked (several of which just didn't work with how they explained the cross-multiverse 'time travel' in the film itself).

Nat and Tony's deaths at least have some permanence based on having her soul devoured by a rock and him being burned out by energies established as beyond mortal capability, respectively.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/19 03:33:33


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

Voss wrote:
This is one of those areas where I think going back to 'but in comics' is problematic, and the MCU is really its own thing. It doesn't really matter what happened in the comics and how deep people can dive based on their personal knowledge (or wikipedia). At this point, those are the Infinity stones, and every movie treats them as important for that reason. If the comic source disagrees, it doesn't really matter, in the exact same way that it doesn't matter that Tony was captured by Afghan rebels rather than Contras.

this is less about what was in the Comics, but that the writers at the beginning did not know what will happen. Infinity Stones or Thanos was not a thing by the time the movies were made, they did not even know if the franchise will continue

so those were written without the stones in mind and the story was changed later to fit the new goal (hence the early movies do not treat them as the important stones)

the important part here is, that phase 4 and the upcoming movies might be written without the next villain/enemy in mind and are just about introducing the next generation and continue the story until the one movie comes that sets up the next big thing (and retcons the story that everything was all about this)


Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Voss wrote:


Nat and Tony's deaths at least have some permanence based on having her soul devoured by a rock and him being burned out by energies established as beyond mortal capability, respectively.


Our Nat and Tony, yeah. But with the multiverse every character might come back eventually.

Xavier was a perfect example of that. Someone complained about their beloved super powerful mutant being overwhelmed by the witch but we knew nothing about that Xavier, he wasn't our Xavier. He might have been a complete fool or just not as powerful as our Xavier. Wanda from that universe was much different (and definitely extremely less powerful) than our Wanda.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LunarSol wrote:


It's probably not impossible to redeem her, but it would be pretty difficult. She kills a LOT of people in this film and while that kind of stuff gets swept under the rug all the time, particularly the tendency for alt universe characters to "not count" as do unfortunately nameless henchwizards.... IDK, she takes things pretty far.



It wouldn't be that hard actually. Just let her join a fight against a very powerful villain and let her sacrifce to save the squad. But it's cheesy, and that's the way they already redeemed Tony. I don't even think Wanda's character needs to be redeemed honestly, just being under the evil book's influence justifies anything.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/19 08:46:30


 
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






Kang definitely isn't the new Thanos. He's the new Loki. And a way to introduce another young avenger at the end of his villain story. Young Kang refuses to grow up to be Kang.

I am entirely in the camp that the Big finale is going to be Secret Wars with some God Emperor Doom.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 kodos wrote:
Voss wrote:
This is one of those areas where I think going back to 'but in comics' is problematic, and the MCU is really its own thing. It doesn't really matter what happened in the comics and how deep people can dive based on their personal knowledge (or wikipedia). At this point, those are the Infinity stones, and every movie treats them as important for that reason. If the comic source disagrees, it doesn't really matter, in the exact same way that it doesn't matter that Tony was captured by Afghan rebels rather than Contras.

this is less about what was in the Comics, but that the writers at the beginning did not know what will happen.


No, I was responding to LunarSol explicitly saying 'in the comics, the cosmic cube this and the aether that.' Its 100% 'what was in the comics'
-----


Blackie wrote: Our Nat and Tony, yeah. But with the multiverse every character might come back eventually.

Yes, exactly. Its why I don't like the multiverse angle- the stakes just go poof.
Its particularly galling because they opened this door with Gamora, a character that they didn't really bother exploring much in the first place. She's got a complex backstory, but was quickly demoted to Brat-Lord's love interest and then sacrificed to Thanos' backstory (which was then jettisoned of even the modicum of complexity that introduced with alt-reality total monster time Thanos)

I don't even think Wanda's character needs to be redeemed honestly, just being under the evil book's influence justifies anything.

All of Wandavision happened before she came in contact with any book.
I don't have much use for redemption stories personally, but if she ever pops up again, the MCU does need to deal with the fact that she is voluntarily a monster (and a stupidly powerful reality warper) and address how she and everyone else deals with that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/19 12:56:12


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Voss wrote:

All of Wandavision happened before she came in contact with any book.


And she did nothing irreparable in WandaVision. At some point she even believed she was giving a better life to the people she controlled. Several "good" superheroes did worse things and weren't even questioned.

Voss wrote:

I don't have much use for redemption stories personally, but if she ever pops up again, the MCU does need to deal with the fact that she is voluntarily a monster (and a stupidly powerful reality warper) and address how she and everyone else deals with that.


I never saw her as "evil", let alone someone who became "voluntarily" a monster. She was just corrupted and controlled by the evil book at some point (remember the Xavier scene, Wanda was somehow kept prisoner in her own mind), and all her quest started out of pure desperation. Tony Stark creating Ultron and later fighting the good avengers was much worse, and he was always in control of his mind. But he never paid for his atrocities, thanks to the fact that he was backed up by the government, and in the end the only thing he cared was that Thanos canceled Peter Parker from existence.

She really doesn't need any redempion at this point, destroying the book, the temple and possibly herself, was definitely enough. And now that she has moved own from her dream, she would have no reason to act like a villain again in case she comes back.


 
   
Made in us
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Pretty sure that Wanda trapped in Wanda’s mind was the Other Wanda that Wanda was possessing.

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Voss wrote:
 kodos wrote:
Voss wrote:
This is one of those areas where I think going back to 'but in comics' is problematic, and the MCU is really its own thing. It doesn't really matter what happened in the comics and how deep people can dive based on their personal knowledge (or wikipedia). At this point, those are the Infinity stones, and every movie treats them as important for that reason. If the comic source disagrees, it doesn't really matter, in the exact same way that it doesn't matter that Tony was captured by Afghan rebels rather than Contras.

this is less about what was in the Comics, but that the writers at the beginning did not know what will happen.


No, I was responding to LunarSol explicitly saying 'in the comics, the cosmic cube this and the aether that.' Its 100% 'what was in the comics'
-----


The point is not that it has to work the same way it does in the comics. The point is that using an aspect of the comics that is a major aspect of Red Skull's character from the comics is not a good sign that it was intended to be in any way related to the Infinity Stones in those movies. It was in no way hinting at anything. Just something they retconned later to tie it in. It wasn't included in The First Avenger with Thanos in mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AduroT wrote:
Pretty sure that Wanda trapped in Wanda’s mind was the Other Wanda that Wanda was possessing.


Yeah. Xavier thought if he could free her from the rubble it would break the dreamwalking spell and free the possessed Wanda.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:

It wouldn't be that hard actually. Just let her join a fight against a very powerful villain and let her sacrifce to save the squad. But it's cheesy, and that's the way they already redeemed Tony. I don't even think Wanda's character needs to be redeemed honestly, just being under the evil book's influence justifies anything.


Yeah. Assuming we go Secret Wars (and at this point why wouldn't we?), her fulfilling the prophecy of the Scarlet Witch by destroying BattleWorld seems like the right way to go.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/19 14:01:28


 
   
Made in us
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MN

Any story that relies on a Multiverse or Timeline shenanigans suffers as the lack of consequences and flimsy rational just fall apart. I am very disappointed that the MCU is going that route.

The exception of course is Bill and Ted.

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Painting Within the Lines






 LunarSol wrote:
 Ghool wrote:

You forgot Thor 2 which dealt entirely with the Reality Stone.
And the Avengers, which had the Tessaract/Cosmic Cube/Space Stone, and Thanos at the end.
Infinity War was telegraphed as soon as the Cosmic Cube entered the picture in Captain America 1.
Well, at least the eventual appearance of Thanos.
Indeed there was some meandering in getting to Infinity War, but the seeds were there.


Nah. The Cosmic Cube is its own McGuffin Red Skull has chased in the comics for decades with no relation to the Infinity Stones. It's cute to make it important retroactively, but there's zero reason to assume that was the plan going in. The Aether is even flimsier. It actually has an origin in Thor 2 as a creation of Malekith and really has no indication of being intended as the Reality stone until they started reaching back. The only one that's even a little clean is Loki's scepter, but even that feels like something that was decided after the fact. None of these things telegraphed Infinity Gauntlet in any meaningful way. They just got retconned into the story later.

FWIW, when I said there's only 9 of 23 that have anything to do with Infinity Stones, I was counting these. Cap 1, Avengers 1, 2, 3, 4, Thor 2, 3 Guardians 1, Strange 1. 10 I suppose with Captain Marvel. It's still less than half, and I'll still argue of that 10, there's only a couple that deal with the stones in any meaningful way.


Thor 2 did not have the Aether retconned to be an Infinity Stone.
It was right in the movie. Just watch the post credits scene again.
   
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 Ghool wrote:

Thor 2 did not have the Aether retconned to be an Infinity Stone.
It was right in the movie. Just watch the post credits scene again.


Fair enough. In my defense, I'm not sure the last time I watched Thor 2.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Blackie wrote:
And she did nothing irreparable in WandaVision. At some point she even believed she was giving a better life to the people she controlled. Several "good" superheroes did worse things and weren't even questioned.

'It's ok to torture a town full of people to the point that they beg you to just let them die instead, so long as you think you're doing them a favour'.
   
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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






 Lord Damocles wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
And she did nothing irreparable in WandaVision. At some point she even believed she was giving a better life to the people she controlled. Several "good" superheroes did worse things and weren't even questioned.

'It's ok to torture a town full of people to the point that they beg you to just let them die instead, so long as you think you're doing them a favour'.


I know this might sound cheap? But grief can do horrible things to a person. And Wanda was never especially stable to start with.

Blackie is ultimately correct. Nobody died. Nobody suffered physical injury.

And…..we’re also making the potential mistake of assuming That’s The End Of That Story. They can pick back up on that thread as they see fit. The MCU is nothing if not consistent in Things Coming Back To Bite You On The Bum.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in ca
Painting Within the Lines






 LunarSol wrote:
 Ghool wrote:

Thor 2 did not have the Aether retconned to be an Infinity Stone.
It was right in the movie. Just watch the post credits scene again.


Fair enough. In my defense, I'm not sure the last time I watched Thor 2.


The kids and I are watching phase 1-3 again, which is why I mentioned the consistency.
It’s clear that as of the post credits scene in Avengers that they were building to Infinity War.
Phase 4 has shown me so far, no such clear direction except, ‘Hey, do you know there’s a Multiverse out there’ and not really much else aside from ‘Incursions can happen’.
To me personally, and since I am rewatching all the way to Endgame in sequence, it’s a lot clearer and anticipated in the build up to Endgame than the current phase and what it’s building to.
At this point I’d wager it’s most likely the Beyonder and Secret Wars.
We will have to see if in the interim we get things like the Annihilation Wave, Galactus, and Dr. Doom. Which is what I suspect. It just feels like this round of the MCU almost feels like it’s listing and a little lost.
I feel MoM would have been much better served as a Dr. Strange movie 100% than another entry for the MCU. I mean he doesn’t have to save the world and universe in every movie, does he?
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I think the important distinction isn't that they were building to Infinity War since Avengers though. Avengers was the end of Phase 1. I think the issue is that from Iron Man, we knew Phase 1 was building towards Avengers. The biggest issue with Phase 4 is just that none of the films seem to be set up as any kind of finale the way the original Avengers films did. Obviously the pandemic makes that feeling worse, but it would definitely help if it felt like either of the main threads (multiverse/Dark Avengers) felt like they were pointing to a specific film rather than the very vague teasers we've seen so far.
   
Made in us
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MN

Isn't it building to Avengers 2.0 and the new "Team" of Avengers?

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 Easy E wrote:
Isn't it building to Avengers 2.0 and the new "Team" of Avengers?


We assume, but there's been no "Avengers Initiative" moment to really cement that. There's been a bit of the "building a team" from Veronica in the D+ shows, but there's no project announced that anything seems to be building towards. There are multiple things its probably building towards, but nothing like the clean signposts we got at the end of Iron Man and Avengers.
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
And she did nothing irreparable in WandaVision. At some point she even believed she was giving a better life to the people she controlled. Several "good" superheroes did worse things and weren't even questioned.

'It's ok to torture a town full of people to the point that they beg you to just let them die instead, so long as you think you're doing them a favour'.


I know this might sound cheap? But grief can do horrible things to a person. And Wanda was never especially stable to start with.

Blackie is ultimately correct. Nobody died. Nobody suffered physical injury.
.

Yes, indeed. Wanda had no concept of mercy. In many cases it'd be easier to forgive her if she had killed them. At least it would've been quick and fairly painless

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






 LunarSol wrote:
 Easy E wrote:
Isn't it building to Avengers 2.0 and the new "Team" of Avengers?


We assume, but there's been no "Avengers Initiative" moment to really cement that. There's been a bit of the "building a team" from Veronica in the D+ shows, but there's no project announced that anything seems to be building towards. There are multiple things its probably building towards, but nothing like the clean signposts we got at the end of Iron Man and Avengers.


We have the introduction of:

Patriot
Ms Marvel
Iron Heart
Speed
Wiccan
Sylvie
America Chavez
Kate Bishop
Cassie Lang being aged up after the blip.

And Kang, which is a back door introduction of Iron Lad.



Young Avengers/Champions.



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Young Avengers is for sure happening, but there's still no clear signpost. There's no movie or show announced, no "we're forming a band" stinger the same way. That's the only distinction I'm making Iron Man pointed definitively to Avengers, Avengers pointed definitively to Thanos. Right now we have a lot of threads, but we haven't had a moment where they've been the same kind of declaration those moments created.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






We also have The Naughty Avengers, like US Agent and chums bubbling away.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in it
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Italy

 Lord Damocles wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
And she did nothing irreparable in WandaVision. At some point she even believed she was giving a better life to the people she controlled. Several "good" superheroes did worse things and weren't even questioned.

'It's ok to torture a town full of people to the point that they beg you to just let them die instead, so long as you think you're doing them a favour'.


Is it to ok to create an AI that caused the deaths of thousands just because you think the world needed better/cleverer/bigger guns, which oh wait was the family business? What about selling guns to criminals or enemy nations? The bomb who killed Wanda's familiy was from Stark Industries.

Tony Stark is a gun dealer, nothing more guys. The fact that is brilliant, american, well dressed and that can make good jokes doesn't make it a good guy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
And she did nothing irreparable in WandaVision. At some point she even believed she was giving a better life to the people she controlled. Several "good" superheroes did worse things and weren't even questioned.

'It's ok to torture a town full of people to the point that they beg you to just let them die instead, so long as you think you're doing them a favour'.


I know this might sound cheap? But grief can do horrible things to a person. And Wanda was never especially stable to start with.

Blackie is ultimately correct. Nobody died. Nobody suffered physical injury.
.

Yes, indeed. Wanda had no concept of mercy. In many cases it'd be easier to forgive her if she had killed them. At least it would've been quick and fairly painless


Don't forget she never adapted living in a western country, she was an outcast for her entire life. She's always been a loner and an anti social person. Even her lover wasn't a human being. And her power is kinda unique, she might not fully understand the pain she inflicts by controlling people since she can't experience it.

And again, I find her much more mercyful than Tony Stark . Both in WandaVision and Multiverse of Madness she understands and accepts her faults and corrects her actions in the end.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 07:04:26


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Lots of options. Nothing firm for direction. We do have the next generation of heroes being developed, as well as bringing reacquired properties into the MCU.

Iron Man - 2008 start of the MCU, tease of Avengers
Avengers - 2012 tease fulfilled, new tease of Thanos
Endgame - 2019 Thanos tease fulfilled.
Spider-Man: Far from Home - 2019 last phase 3 film, tease of Nick Fury and Skrulls in space...?
COVID - 2020
Black Widow- 2021 first phase 4 movie, teases Dark Avengers? Thunderbolts?

So, if it wasn't for Covid we'd probably know what the first post Infinity goal was by now, but my guess is something like Dark Avengers and then when that happens we'll get the tease for what the new 'saga' is.


   
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Wrexham, North Wales

Saw it last night. Pretty much enjoyed it. It was a non-stop roller coaster though. And I did enjoy Bruce punching himself all over again.

The fight with the Illuminati was pretty brutal (why are you talking? - Just kill her right now!), maybe the most brutal MCU fight scene yet. Although.... if Black Bolt's voice can't go through the thin skin over where his mouth was, how could it go through the roof of his mouth into his brain?
   
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Toronto, Ontario

 Blackie wrote:


Is it to ok to create an AI that caused the deaths of thousands just because you think the world needed better/cleverer/bigger guns, which oh wait was the family business?


So, again, you're really understating the importance of intent here. Tony did not intend to create a genocidal machine. He doesn't even think he's anywhere near actually creating an AI, he's just as surprised as everyone else when Ultron first reveals himself to the Avengers at the party. By contrast absolutely no one can argue that Wanda did not intend to hold the people of Westview captive. It's clear from her first interaction with the SWORD agents that she knows exactly what she's doing and has no intention of stopping.


What about selling guns to criminals or enemy nations? The bomb who killed Wanda's familiy was from Stark Industries.


Literally the instant he finds out his weapons are being used by warlords and terrorists, he calls a press conference and declares his company is no longer making weapons.

I think you just hate the character for whatever reason, which is fine, but intent is absolutely relevant here. Wanda isn't doing anything by accident, but Tony does.
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





MarkNorfolk wrote:

The fight with the Illuminati was pretty brutal (why are you talking? - Just kill her right now!),


They didn’t want to kill the innocent Wanda she was possessing.
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






 creeping-deth87 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:


Is it to ok to create an AI that caused the deaths of thousands just because you think the world needed better/cleverer/bigger guns, which oh wait was the family business?


So, again, you're really understating the importance of intent here. Tony did not intend to create a genocidal machine. He doesn't even think he's anywhere near actually creating an AI, he's just as surprised as everyone else when Ultron first reveals himself to the Avengers at the party. By contrast absolutely no one can argue that Wanda did not intend to hold the people of Westview captive. It's clear from her first interaction with the SWORD agents that she knows exactly what she's doing and has no intention of stopping.


What about selling guns to criminals or enemy nations? The bomb who killed Wanda's familiy was from Stark Industries.


Literally the instant he finds out his weapons are being used by warlords and terrorists, he calls a press conference and declares his company is no longer making weapons.

I think you just hate the character for whatever reason, which is fine, but intent is absolutely relevant here. Wanda isn't doing anything by accident, but Tony does.


It's also funny because Wanda is partly responsible for initiating it due to playing her weird mind games in Tony's head at the beginning of AoU that brought his fears up to the fore to the point that he pushed for the Ultron program idea as hard as he did at the start of the movie. So by that logic Wanda is partly responsible as the spark that set off the Ultron project. But I guarantee you no one will give her flack for that in this thread.

Also, creeping deth hit the nail on the head here. Ultron was an AI gone rogue that wasn't even expected to become sentient as quickly or as malevolently as anybody expected. Tony immediately addressed it and worked with the rest of the Avengers to take Ultron out. It's not like Tony just threw his hands up in the air and ignored it the whole movie until the very end, unlike Wanda with Westview, or doubled down with another Ultron project while the rest of the Avengers went after Ultron.

   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 Blackie wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
And she did nothing irreparable in WandaVision. At some point she even believed she was giving a better life to the people she controlled. Several "good" superheroes did worse things and weren't even questioned.

'It's ok to torture a town full of people to the point that they beg you to just let them die instead, so long as you think you're doing them a favour'.


I know this might sound cheap? But grief can do horrible things to a person. And Wanda was never especially stable to start with.

Blackie is ultimately correct. Nobody died. Nobody suffered physical injury.
.

Yes, indeed. Wanda had no concept of mercy. In many cases it'd be easier to forgive her if she had killed them. At least it would've been quick and fairly painless


Don't forget she never adapted living in a western country, she was an outcast for her entire life. She's always been a loner and an anti social person. Even her lover wasn't a human being. And her power is kinda unique, she might not fully understand the pain she inflicts by controlling people since she can't experience it.

Uh, what? She's not western, so she doesn't know what mercy is? That's disturbing and doesn't even make sense: she's so thoroughly drenched in western culture her subconscious recreates _only_ western sitcoms. Ones that most 'westerners' her age wouldn't even know or remember.
You do understand that the 'vaguely eastern european war refugee' is supposed to make her sympathetic to audience, not alien, right?

I've absolutely no idea where you're getting 'she's a loner' from. She went from normal family life to possibly codependent relationship with her twin, to team member to possibly codependent relationship (but almost certainly unhealthy and toxic, given Wandavision). From what we're shown, she has _never_ been alone until Wandavision, and being left to her own devices is a vehicle for becoming a monster.

She's directly connect to their minds, and they're telling her. You can't tell me she's a victim because grief and stuff AND tell me that she can't empathize, understand or even _experience_ pain. That makes her even less of a human being than Vision.



And again, I find her much more mercyful than Tony Stark . Both in WandaVision and Multiverse of Madness she understands and accepts her faults and corrects her actions in the end.

In WandaVision she absolutely does not, she simply walks away, abandons her victims like trash, and delves right back into her own mental crap. And its reinforced by a Named Character patting her on the back for all the 'good' she's done.
In MoM... That's a seriously dark take.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2022/05/20 14:01:25


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






 creeping-deth87 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:


Is it to ok to create an AI that caused the deaths of thousands just because you think the world needed better/cleverer/bigger guns, which oh wait was the family business?


So, again, you're really understating the importance of intent here. Tony did not intend to create a genocidal machine. He doesn't even think he's anywhere near actually creating an AI, he's just as surprised as everyone else when Ultron first reveals himself to the Avengers at the party. By contrast absolutely no one can argue that Wanda did not intend to hold the people of Westview captive. It's clear from her first interaction with the SWORD agents that she knows exactly what she's doing and has no intention of stopping.


What about selling guns to criminals or enemy nations? The bomb who killed Wanda's familiy was from Stark Industries.


Literally the instant he finds out his weapons are being used by warlords and terrorists, he calls a press conference and declares his company is no longer making weapons.

I think you just hate the character for whatever reason, which is fine, but intent is absolutely relevant here. Wanda isn't doing anything by accident, but Tony does.


By the same token you are misrepresenting Wanda in Westview. Her first interaction with the Agents is when they show up to her house with a weaponized drone. She doesn't know she is holding everyone hostage. She just knows these people tried to assassinate her and her family. It shows her want to do good that she didn't walk out there and start killing everyone. Yes, some of the people outside try to tell her she is holding them hostage. But 1) she doesn't believe anything the assassins are telling her and 2) she isn't aware that she is even capable of what they are claiming she is doing let alone how she would be doing it.

So much of what Wanda is doing in Westview is instinctual. Something she isn't in direct control of. And she only lashes out when she thinks people are threatening the slice of happiness she is retreating into. When she kicks out Rambeu she does it protecting her the entire time. She lands not a scratch on her. Because she isn't actually interested in hurting anyone.

So intent is important right? Argue intent. Did Wanda intend to have her powers do things she has never seen them do to a scale they never have before? Did Wanda intend for everyone to get brain washed? Or was she a broken person retreating into the fantasy her grief manifested for her?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/20 21:25:10



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
 
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