Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

ccs wrote:

 tauist wrote:
I disagree about physical books being faster to reference rules with. In many occasions, I've had both physical rulebooks and self-made PDF versions on stuff on my iPad, and it's always been way slower and awkward to find a rule from a physical book IME.

Who would use a smartphone to squint at stuff? No wonder yall prefer a physical book..

A great many people.

Main reason being that many people don't have / need a tablet in their life. However, comparing phone vs physical book the book is definitely much faster, that's why we usually work with BS printouts or the actual Codex.

 Dysartes wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 BuFFo wrote:
If I want to play 40k, I have to buy the books required.

Do you?

If you don't want to enter the, at best, ethically murky waters of piracy, then yes.

Borrowing a book from another player and print the few pages you need to play your list is legal in the vast majority of the civilized world. It's not something that uncommon for groups of players who know each other very well. I literally need no more than 10-15 pages to play a 2000 games between faction rules and datasheets of stuff I'm fielding, I don't see any point in bringing one or two whole books with me when I play.

Having a book of your own, and making a print out of it is okey. If printing someone elses book was okey, you wouldn't be kicked out for trying to do it in a library.

Karol wrote:
Having a book of your own, and making a print out of it is okey. If printing someone elses book was okey, you wouldn't be kicked out for trying to do it in a library.

Here's perfectly legal as long as you print up to 15% of it and it's for personal use, you can't sell those pages. For a codex it's basically the pages that you need to play a game.

And printing pages from a site, which is legal to access, is also legal.

Im sonewhat torn, i do believe if you are playing and enjoying a game you should support the creators (the game designers not shareholders or execs), on the other hand i do agree that GWs rule release process is quite anti consumer these days. *shrugs*

Dai wrote:
Im sonewhat torn, i do believe if you are playing and enjoying a game you should support the creators (the game designers not shareholders or execs), on the other hand i do agree that GWs rule release process is quite anti consumer these days. *shrugs*

I'm sure their support is factored into price of the kits & paint & FW stuff that I buy.

Yup, they get plenty of my money on stuff I feel is worth what I pay for it.

40k books are barely worth the paper, ink & glue they're made of. Let alone the content of said books.

Codexes are too expensive but I'd rather have a physical copy to read and flip through, It's not the same without a physical copy,

The point of: "you can't print book parts in a library" is quite a strange one.

At this point in my academic career, I have been through the library resource talk about a million times and, I can very much assure you, that you absolutely CAN print things from books in a library. There are limits, but they are pretty generous limits and absolutely wouldn't apply here.

Going back to the discussion:

I tend to still bring my books with me when I play, but I also painstakingly write out little index cards with relevant rules/strategems on them before the game. This really helps if you are using units you don't often use, planning a strategy you don't normally do, or anything else unfamiliar. I'm also one of those people that remember things a lot more clearly if I write them out, so that plays a factor as well.

In a way, that sort of thing was part of my point with this thread. I find that, mostly, I don't end up having to actually even open the codex itself as I have a bunch of nicely written little cards that let me know everything I need for the game.

If that's the case... why did I spend the $60? Again, I DO like the other aspects of the codex... but I just don't think they are worth that price anymore.

I have codexes back to around 3rd, but the only ones that aren't in storage are my 8E codexes and the Indexes. I actually prefer the indexes to the codexes - they were the "right price point" with half a dozen armies in each. I've been around the game long enough I don't need the non-game stats and if I did want to look them up, there's plenty of wikis/youtube that cover the lore.

Many years ago I bought an i-pad so I could have all my gaming books in one place. They're all OCRed and bookmarked, and I use them at games all the time now (also keeping track of characters for RPGs, and 3D dice rolling apps to boot). Save a ton of shelf space as well as my back.

I still pull the physical books off my shelf for a read time from time, but to save wear on them I no longer take the paper copies to games.

Dai wrote:
Im sonewhat torn, i do believe if you are playing and enjoying a game you should support the creators (the game designers not shareholders or execs), on the other hand i do agree that GWs rule release process is quite anti consumer these days. *shrugs*

I still buy the books I deem worth my money (especially the crusade stuff), but don't actually use them as wahapedia is just much better suited to access rules, datasheets and errata.

You still can get boned by GW when they arbitrarily change the content of that book or suddenly decide it's no longer valid next January.

The era of books should definitely end, hopefully the issues globalization is having right now will soon affect the print business as well.

Nowadays I'm not sure if they're worth getting.
The codex turnover right seems pretty high and they cost so much.
They don't even have articles or painting / modeling guides anymore, which is something that earlier editions used to have.

You're basically paying 60USD for studio photos of models, poorly written fluff and rules are that mostly copy pasted and to top it off the very format of the book seems awkward and counter-intuitive. You have to do a lot of flipping around.

A pity, because I do like having a physical copy. It's just not worth the money they ask for.

PenitentJake wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:


Now conversions are frowned on as being dangerous threats to 'no model no rules', I know enough of the background and it seems to change often making me less inclined to want to learn it, painting ideas are all over the web and the rules seem to be poorly tested, changed every few months or invalidated.

While conversions are no longer featured in Codices, and while WD articles seldom give you a step by step guide on how to make the conversions, it is not true that GW officially frowns on conversions. I have issue 476 of WD sitting in front of me right now; it includes conversions for a Dark Mechinicum priest kitbashed from the Venomcrawler and Manipulus kits, a Baneblade fitted with an exorcist launcher, a unit of corrupted SoB, a Feudal Guard unit kit bashed from Cawdor/ Cadian/ Krieg models, a unit of Guard Beastmen Conscripts, and a Holy Knight with a church on its back (from the Sigmarite mausoleum).

Yes and their websites show them as well. (Though all but one of your examples were nits as opposed to converting to make new ones.) But the discussion point was about codex books and whether or not you should get them, not other media.

They don't exactly reject conversions (they know better than to do that), but they don't really support them either.
They used to encourage conversions and scratchbuilds a lot more. There used to be articles on how to make your own terrain from materials you can find at a hardware store, as opposed to cannibalizing multiple expensive GW sets.

How much value does a physical codex have to you?

About $7-$10 US for all the old codexes we use(except the black templar one, for whatever reason the 4th ed codex was stupid expensive to buy) when playing hybrid 5th ed/oldhammer. seriously i already own all the good codexes that matter from every edition (3rd-7th) that we use.
Having the physical copy in my hand is great though, i hate having to look stuff up on a phone or rely on an APP.


I do not play 9th and i never will, and i am glad i do not need to lug around 3-5 books to know how to run a single army.

There may have been less lore in prior paperback/b+w codexes, but I'll say the lore was better. Heck the rules and units were better in many cases. Codexes have inflated their page count but not the quality is not there, certainly not for the price.

+1
Way more immersive as well. that little 3.5 mini dex for my dark angels that cost all of $10 new is still my favorite DA codex

leerm02 wrote:

Greetings everyone,

I was reading some of the other threads and thinking about how absurd it has gotten that codexes are like $60 a pop in the US. I'm a million years old, and so I can still remember the days of the 3rd edition codexes that were... like $25 I think? I guess I can't remember the exact price, but I do recall that they were cheap enough that I regularly bought new codexes just to read the lore, rules, and get some of the flavor of whatever faction had just come out. Like a lot of you, I also rather enjoyed the artwork, style, and general feeling of the 41st millennium and wanted to get more of it.

Fast forward to today.

I'm actually not sure I'm going to buy any more codexes... ever. I'm actually quite conflicted about this, as I still enjoy the setting, the models, the game experience and all that stuff. I guess I'm not saying I have any intention of not PLAYING 40k... just not of spending $60 for rules I can easily get elsewhere, lore I can easily get elsewhere, and art that is... actually, I still like the art for the most part. I guess my point is that, even though I do tend to enjoy my physical codexes, and sometimes like to do silly things like relax on the couch and just find little bits of lore or description that I didn't notice before, I just don't think that I enjoy them $60 worth.

What about you? How much do you enjoy your physical codexes? Would a lower price point make you buy more of them?

One of the things that also has to be acknowledged here is that the old 3rd edition codexes were tiny compared to today's massive tomes, and every editions codexes have been different in this regard. Is that a factor? What do you think? How much value does a physical codex have to you?

A physical book that I can open and have with me at the store over a e-book, quite a bit. I absolutely detest using e-books.

A full color glossy hardback codex with lots of pictures and lore or a black and white softback book of stats, on the other hand.... I'd take the latter.

 Blackie wrote:

Karol wrote:
Having a book of your own, and making a print out of it is okey. If printing someone elses book was okey, you wouldn't be kicked out for trying to do it in a library.

Here's perfectly legal as long as you print up to 15% of it and it's for personal use, you can't sell those pages. For a codex it's basically the pages that you need to play a game.

And printing pages from a site, which is legal to access, is also legal.

In many nations, legal =/= moral. It's why adultery isn't illegal in the U.S., for example (the U.S. Supreme Court specifically cited this distinction with that example). The law is supposed to establish a way for everyone to live together while having their rights observed, but it's not supposed to force 'moral' behavior on people.

Now, nations like Saudi Arabia see that differently (and I'm not trying to say only extreme nations see it differently, that's just what sprung to mind as an obvious example, much like the U.S. above since that quote used to be rather famous/infamous).

Anyway, my overall point: yes, I'd say it's definitely a grey area to copy on the moral spectrum if not a legal one in some places (i.e. people will have different views on it and it could swing either way from person to person).

As for the topic, physical books have negative value to me. They take up space and I dislike throwing them away since they're so expensive and are fairly nice books, but I do not want them taking up space. I want them distilled into the aether rather than cluttering up my house.

It's hard to put a value on something required to play the game as it's higher then the value I would place on a similarly sized book which existed just to convey a story or interesting information. In that way it is more like a technical or academic text, sometimes these are way over priced but that is down to their nature as necessities (also sometimes due to low sales potential but this is less true of Codexs). I do think they are over costed now though, but not enough to put them into the so expensive I will stop playing the game category.

Getting into the game I bought models, the faction Codex and used the free core rules. This was suggested to me by the GW store manager to help keep costs down and to prevent from being overwhelmed with rules. So for me the Codex is more essential to play the game then BRB as you can play a simplified 40K without the BRB but without a Codex you don't have the stats for playing a faction. Though this has changed with the mini datasheets in with the models now so arguably you just need the models. The Codexs being so close in price to the BRB now has really mitigated that new player cost saving which will possibly cause a few to be more hesitant about getting into the game.

I think the biggest issue with the physical book is the physical updates to them are scattered here there and everywhere over the Warhammer Community downloads section. It's hard to keep track of what is relevant to your faction and you end up printing endless sheets just to make sure you have all bases covered. What they should do is have one link for each faction that takes you to a document that details all changes to that faction since the Codex release be it from, FAQ, Balance Dataslate, points update, etc. I've no aversion to having to print out a few pages of updates to slip into the back of my Codex compared to the nightmare of paper work, not all of which I need, that is currently offered.

I have a fairly strong and unwavering opinion on this topic. Simply...

I will only buy the physical book.

I will only play with an opponent who has a physical book.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

ccs wrote:

 tauist wrote:
I disagree about physical books being faster to reference rules with. In many occasions, I've had both physical rulebooks and self-made PDF versions on stuff on my iPad, and it's always been way slower and awkward to find a rule from a physical book IME.

Who would use a smartphone to squint at stuff? No wonder yall prefer a physical book..

A great many people.

Main reason being that many people don't have / need a tablet in their life. However, comparing phone vs physical book the book is definitely much faster, that's why we usually work with BS printouts or the actual Codex.

Interesting. I wouldn't have / need a computer in my life if certain software was available on iOS. I spend 99% of my online life on an iPad. Guess we are still a minority in these parts. (I don't have a smartphone, only a 2018 nokia 3310 remake)

I usually have BS split screened with my DIY pdfs, and wouldn't have it any other way.

 tauist wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

ccs wrote:

 tauist wrote:
I disagree about physical books being faster to reference rules with. In many occasions, I've had both physical rulebooks and self-made PDF versions on stuff on my iPad, and it's always been way slower and awkward to find a rule from a physical book IME.

Who would use a smartphone to squint at stuff? No wonder yall prefer a physical book..

A great many people.

Main reason being that many people don't have / need a tablet in their life. However, comparing phone vs physical book the book is definitely much faster, that's why we usually work with BS printouts or the actual Codex.

Interesting. I wouldn't have / need a computer in my life if certain software was available on iOS. I spend 99% of my online life on an iPad. Guess we are still a minority in these parts. (I don't have a smartphone, only a 2018 nokia 3310 remake)

I usually have BS split screened with my DIY pdfs, and wouldn't have it any other way.

I hate tablets. It's the worst of all worlds. Has the low capability and crappy experience of using a smartphone, and the large size and weight of a laptop computer. And they're far too expensive to just walk around with on a daily basis, and too big to put in anything smaller than a laptop bag.

At that point, I might as well bring a laptop. Then I have a keyboard and mouse for inputs and the general capability of a computer. And either way, I wouldn't actually bring either out with me, too big and expensive to have set up on a table in a a public environment where I don't have my eye on it continuously.



When it comes to reference material, I think the physical book is by far the easiest and best way to go.
That said, they're also far too expensive nowadays for what you're getting. The Indecies were by far the high point for rules distribution for 40k. I don't need full color images or lore blurbs, I just need a paperback, cheap, pile of my rules I can stick bookmarks in.

And I would say that the cost of codecies has become too much for me. I've chosen to pass on one this edition and shelve that army indefinitely, and while I've already bought the others and intend to buy the one that hasn't come out yet [IG], I plan to further reduce my active 40k armies to just IG and Sisters, and maybe Space Wolves, next codex cycle, because I don't get enough value out of the codecies over their lifetime to warrant buying them at the exorbitant price for full color, hardback, lore books.

If I break down my gameplay, I try to get a game of some kind in every week. Splitting the difference between all about 8 or 9 different miniatures games I play and too many different forces between them, I really only get value out of my most used, favorite 40k armies, and my others get played maybe once or twice a year. I also prefer 5e 40k to 9e, so that's further limits the use new codecies for off-main armies get.

Hardback isn't a value add on a book I have to drag everywhere that will be obsolete in a year or two anyway.
The "artwork" has become mostly photoshopped pics of models that I saw online 2 months before the codex released.
They get day 1 FAQs meaning the printed copy is obsolete before you even get it home.

Zero. Printed game manuals belong back in the 1990s.

Haven't used a codex in the last two years of gaming. Anyone telling me they won't play because I don't have the original codex can go play with themselves instead, but strangely no-one has ever said that.

Given how much GW dares to ask for their models I say their rules should be free. Especially since they tend to be out of date just a few weeks after the codex releases.

 oni wrote:
I have a fairly strong and unwavering opinion on this topic. Simply...

I will only buy the physical book.

I will only play with an opponent who has a physical book.

My Drukari army/collection consists of 23 models: Boss Elf x1 (pick one: Archon/Succubus/Haemunculous/Drazzar), Venom x1, then all Talos & all Cronos as fits the points.
That's 7 data sheets + the generic rules for faction + my chosen Coven + the relics. + the balance update.
I've distilled this to 9 pages & put those in a cheap paper folder like you'd use in grade school.
I'm only carrying the bitz of the Codex that I need.

This + the card pack for strats + dice & tape measureis all I bring when playing this force.
And eventually I'll make a 10th page for the strats I actually use & retire the card pack....

But if I played a holier than thou type like you? Then I'd just take a pic of my bookshelf & you could rest easy knowing that I have indeed wasted my $ on the whole Codex. I'm just not carrying it with me.

The late 4th (5th) Ed ork codex- priceless.
The 9th dex?, couldn’t pay me to pick one up.

I've spent too many countless thousands of dollars on GW to feel like I absolutely must buy every codex I want to play with. By the time I'm done building and painting an army to a painted-enough, not-proxying level, there are probably 3 or 4 datasheet updates, FAQs, edition changes, or other nonsense that render my book largely pointless anyway.


And the books don't really have as fully developed fluff sections/short stories any more, which is crazy given how much they pump up the page counts and slap hard covers on it

ccs wrote:

But if I played a holier than thou type like you? Then I'd just take a pic of my bookshelf & you could rest easy knowing that I have indeed wasted my $ on the whole Codex. I'm just not carrying it with me.

I now have an image of people pirating your picture of a bookshelf to 'prove' they own the physical books.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 tauist wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

ccs wrote:

 tauist wrote:
I disagree about physical books being faster to reference rules with. In many occasions, I've had both physical rulebooks and self-made PDF versions on stuff on my iPad, and it's always been way slower and awkward to find a rule from a physical book IME.

Who would use a smartphone to squint at stuff? No wonder yall prefer a physical book..

A great many people.

Main reason being that many people don't have / need a tablet in their life. However, comparing phone vs physical book the book is definitely much faster, that's why we usually work with BS printouts or the actual Codex.

Interesting. I wouldn't have / need a computer in my life if certain software was available on iOS. I spend 99% of my online life on an iPad. Guess we are still a minority in these parts. (I don't have a smartphone, only a 2018 nokia 3310 remake)

I usually have BS split screened with my DIY pdfs, and wouldn't have it any other way.

...

I hate tablets. It's the worst of all worlds. Has the low capability and crappy experience of using a smartphone, and the large size and weight of a laptop computer. And they're far too expensive to just walk around with on a daily basis, and too big to put in anything smaller than a laptop bag.

At that point, I might as well bring a laptop. Then I have a keyboard and mouse for inputs and the general capability of a computer. And either way, I wouldn't actually bring either out with me, too big and expensive to have set up on a table in a a public environment where I don't have my eye on it continuously.

I have lived with an iPad since the first iPad Air model was released. I find the 10" form factor to be just about perfect. I need to carry a backpack with me at all times anyway (meds etc) and I can still fit my gorceries in to the backpack even with the iPad included. iPads can run a whole day without battery and their chargers are much tinier than typical laptop chargers..

TL;DR - I have 100% inverted opinion on this matter, laptops are unwieldy things that you always need a table for. 10" tablets that are light enough to use withone hand rule! So will just agree to disagree.

Responding to OP

Generally speaking a physical army book I would personally value at about $35 as a baseline. In my eyes I am paying not only to have a handy physical reference instead of an inconvenient digital one, but also cool fluff and a bunch of awesome artwork. Would prefer paperback as opposed to hardback (even at the same price) but is what it is.

If I am getting a (well adapted) digital copy of the rules as part of it I would up the personal value to the $40-45 range.

I'd be content paying $50 if it included a digital copy of the entire book; fluff, showcase, rules and all.

At $60 it would have to be a release I was super hyped about. I may buy it anyways, but realistically I would be looking to get a discount somewhere and I certainly would feel unhappy about it.

There is a big caveat to this though, and it is the quality of 9th edition rulebooks. While in terms of basic physical properties (printing, binding, page count, etc) they are fine, but I feel the rules have bloated out with a lot of low-quality design work and that has done even further harm by cutting into the fluff sections. So while the above values are my baseline, 40k 9th has reached a point so bad in my eyes I would confidently cut those numbers in half for what I would be willing to pay.

Suffice it to say I'm not playing 40k right now.

So fun thing my online banking app that I use to access all my current banking (because regular banks are mostly gone and the telephone takes forever) doesn't work any more.

Why? Because the tablet I use no longer gets updates for the latest Android and the Banking app got an update that will only install and work with the latest Android.


So this reminds me of one issue with digital software you don't get with a book. An older edition written in a book still works identically well 10-20-30 years later. In fact you've got to start treating the book really badly or go to insane lengths of time to destroy it.

Digital can vanish overnight with an update; it can vanish overnight with being removed; it can glitch and crash or be a problem to access just because its older digital technology; in a sector of the world that advances at a very rapid pace.