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 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
@Daedalus: Like, seriously Daed, I don't have problems killing tanks/monsters at range, but everything that I use for that purpose is made out of resin. So, what's your answer? "Just use fw"? "Punch them to death"? "Bring a Knight"? Because any of those answers are going to be problematic for some people.

Well, CSM is lacking the updates still.

Helbrute Plasma is D3 S8 AP3 D3 ( available on Contemptor, too of course ). Slap a missile launcher for 115 on and go to town. A contemptor can shoot twice as much for 50 more points, which seems fair.

I don't recall all the rumors, but the other viable options would be VC, Oblits, and melta Termies. Obliterators will ride a knife's edge depending on points with double shooting going away.

Terminators are supposedly going to be limited to 2 combi-meltas per 5 (because that's what's in the kit), and the leaked AT profile for Obliterators is literally a D4 lascannon. And there's a reason that the plasma cannon is the "free" option for Contemptors. Oh, and you still didn't get through that without mention a fw unit.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Brightlances and Darklances are more easily spammed than lascannons AND are better weapons (4 is their minimum damage) and theyre not exactly breaking the game apart


And its not a problem if they start spamming anti-tank weapons, they'll just get punished by someone bringing lots of chaff

Which I guess is an option if someone plays a horde army. A player who has an elite army, which marines still kind of a are, can't just drown the opponent in models, when their basic trooper is 20pts of slow moving infantry.

It's not like saying Kabalites can stand in cover like a marine and blast away and expect to live as easily. They're paying 95 for 1 shot. Marines pay 105 for the same wounds with better armor and AoC. They'd save LC on 4s in cover.

Only we all know they don't. While marine units do slog through the game on foot, because of how ineffcient and costly most of the transport options are, the Kabalite is flying around in an open topped transport. I really don't get those academic exampls of 5 man lascanon tactical vs kabalite with a dark lance. No one uses tacticals with lascanons, because they are a bad unit. It dies too fast and it doesn't do enough in no small amount due to its the lascanon being Dd6. if a DE or eldar player puts a lance in to something, it wounds, hits and does not get stopped by save, they know they can kill up to 4+ wounds of stuff. A marine player can do the same and then put a 1 on a moster or a tank. Hey he can even fail to kill another marine. In effcient shoting is why all the best marine armies are skewed to do melee, and the "shoting" chapters are doing bad.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

I mean you could fill up on scourges/ravagers and war walkers, but that's kind of the extent of it. Marines have dreads, razorbacks, predators, tacs, drop pod devs, quad las relics, sternguard, etc.

Generic drukhari detachment :

Trueborn kabalites
4x Raiders
2x Ravagers

11 dark lance shots

Eldar can take brightlances on

Warwalker
vyper
hornet
wraithlords
wave serpent
falcon
crimson hunter

so lets say i do 3 warwalkers and 3 wraithlords, thats 12 brightlances


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

Which I guess is an option if someone plays a horde army. A player who has an elite army, which marines still kind of a are, can't just drown the opponent in models, when their basic trooper is 20pts of slow moving infantry.

You mean your low modelcount army with models that effectively wear tank armor on them is weak to anti-tank weaponry? Who could've guessed.

the thing is a list that spams nothing but these theoretical lascannons will be weak to lists with a lot of bodies. If the meta begins seeing such spam lists, then its gonna adjust and we're gonna see more chaff units, which is gonna make these spamlists worse.

Just because GK can't really bring chaff, doesn't mean that chaff in other armies wouldnt help them by making lascannons a less optimal pick.

Supposedly SM tanks are getting huge bufffs in the coming SM 2.0 dex.

Moorecox wrote:
Supposedly SM tanks are getting huge bufffs in the coming SM 2.0 dex.

Wait we already got rumors of another SM codex iteration?

Moorecox wrote:
Supposedly SM tanks are getting huge bufffs in the coming SM 2.0 dex.

But apparently not in the CSM codex, if the leaked playtest rules hold true.

They have older groups tech.

EviscerationPlague 805313 11373658 wrote:
Wait we already got rumors of another SM codex iteration?

They have to prepare the armies for 10th ed.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
and the leaked AT profile for Obliterators is literally a D4 lascannon.

They'll probably be over 100 points each in that case.

Then chaos marine dreadnoughts would have to come with a plethora of extra and new rules, because they would be very close in point costs to each other. They will, maybe, cost 100pts after a pts nerf a few months in the future. There is no way an oblit is going to cost 5 pts more then a void day one of the codex.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
and the leaked AT profile for Obliterators is literally a D4 lascannon.

They'll probably be over 100 points each in that case.

Possibly. I don't expect them to be cheap. Heavy d3, S9, AP-3, D4: what's that sound like to you? They've also got a middle profile that's basically "better autocannons": Heavy d3+3, S7, AP-2, D2, and an anti-infantry profile that's basically chaincannons. It's on page 1 of the CSM leaks thread in N&R, have a look for yourself. Just remember: "Playtest rules-subject to change".

It has treads like a real tank, what more could you want?!

 Gadzilla666 wrote:


Just remember: "Playtest rules-subject to change".

As well as the actual rules they eventually sell you.

ccs wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:


Just remember: "Playtest rules-subject to change".

As well as the actual rules they eventually sell you.

Heh, true. But better, IMHO, than just leaving things that are obviously broken to remain a problem for sometimes years, as they sometimes did in the past.

So, Gad, what do you think of the Kratos datasheet?

 Dysartes wrote:
So, Gad, what do you think of the Kratos datasheet?

i think its a playable land raider (T8, 2+)

 Dysartes wrote:
So, Gad, what do you think of the Kratos datasheet?

Rage at the lack of a chaos datasheet, I assume. Bonus rage for martial legacy.


But... its.... interesting. But also weird. And given the game state, I'm still not sure its durable enough for its points (and CP cost)

standouts:
1- loyalist havoc launchers. Good for the new contemptor kit, I guess. Crappy option here, though.

2- heavy bolter == volkite culverins (no point costs). +9" range, +1 shot, +1 strength, and mortal wounds on 6s is worth -1 AP. And also -1 shot and shorter range on the volkite caliver. Because feth points. (also autocannons work in here for one set of mounts, which is even more laughable).
There are a bunch of swaps for the sponson, not-a-sponson and bonus weapon that are just odd. heavybolter=twinboltgun=combi-flamer= heavy flamer?

3- Main guns are a math test. Eyeballing it, I suspect GW failed.
Melta cannon is... fine? But marines can field so many fast multimeltas that I don't care. Can't see a reason to pay 320 points for a 36" range cannon that's equivalent to 2 multimeltas and on faster, cheaper things.
That a bonus multimelta is one of the two things you have to pay for feels absurd.

battlecannons shots:
AP vs HE looks iffy. Not in the mental state to do the math on it, but heavy 1 sucks, and Strength 14 just doesn't matter enough to care about. Damage is fine, until you realize that just 3 hits slipping through equals max damage on the AP. Yes, you'll care about AP 5. But then your target has invulnerable saves and you won't shoot AP.
d6+3 blast on the HE makes me annoyed. Its either 9 or... you'll still roll, because min 3 on 'tiny horde' units doesn't matter when you get minimum 4.

Volkite cannon. Lots of shots always, lots of rolling for 6s. Better range.
Again, between all the main guns, it looks like the math resolves to 'one of these is best'

Voss wrote:

2- heavy bolter == volkite culverins (no point costs). +9" range, +1 shot, +1 strength, and mortal wounds on 6s is worth -1 AP. And also -1 shot and shorter range on the volkite caliver. Because feth points. (also autocannons work in here for one set of mounts, which is even more lauable).

Agreed, losing AP-1 is really not a big deal in the era of AOC.

The fact that you can swap out the heavy bolters for autocannons or volkites for free is just silly.

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 Karhedron wrote:

Voss wrote:

2- heavy bolter == volkite culverins (no point costs). +9" range, +1 shot, +1 strength, and mortal wounds on 6s is worth -1 AP. And also -1 shot and shorter range on the volkite caliver. Because feth points. (also autocannons work in here for one set of mounts, which is even more lauable).

Agreed, losing AP-1 is really not a big deal in the era of AOC.

Yeah, it's a good thing that the only armies in the game are marines and as such every army has access to Armor of Contempt.

Edit : Sorry, I completely misunderstood.

While the Kratos is pretty much what I expected based on the leaked 30k datasheet, I can't stop thinking the writer that did the datasheet went like "damn, thats a ton of options. I'd rather not check what each one's worth in 40k, people should use PL anyway ffs" and be done with it.
The entirely optional pintle weapons are free aside from what should be a 25pts upgrade (see: Land Raider pintle weapon).

I'll still build and play it in 40k, but really - can't you put in like 30 more minutes to do proper points? It's not that complicated once you have the base cost figured out, ffs.

We're seeing that more and more though. The guard squads in the dataslate, for example. And various other units scattered throughout books. I suspect its the next paradigm shift, where upgrades are going to largely be free, regardless.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Yeah, it's a good thing that the only armies in the game are marines and as such every army has access to Armor of Contempt.

That's true of the face of it, but also... orks, daemons, guard, tau, a fair chunk of eldar units... it actually doesn't matter. The extra shot, extra strength and chance of mortal wounds is significantly better.
Against anything t3 you're now wounding on a 2+, so the fact that they don't get their save reduced is a wash. But now there's an extra shot and a chance of mortal wounds as well.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The fact that you can swap out the heavy bolters for autocannons or volkites for free is just silly.

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 Karhedron wrote:

Voss wrote:

2- heavy bolter == volkite culverins (no point costs). +9" range, +1 shot, +1 strength, and mortal wounds on 6s is worth -1 AP. And also -1 shot and shorter range on the volkite caliver. Because feth points. (also autocannons work in here for one set of mounts, which is even more lauable).

Agreed, losing AP-1 is really not a big deal in the era of AOC.

Yeah, it's a good thing that the only armies in the game are marines and as such every army has access to Armor of Contempt.

It's still a decent percentage of your matchups, and volkite still isn't bad against non-marines.

Maybe it's the other way around? The base cost already accounts for all of the best weapon options, and the problem is that you're not getting a discount for choosing lesser options.

nekooni wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The fact that you can swap out the heavy bolters for autocannons or volkites for free is just silly.

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 Karhedron wrote:

Voss wrote:

2- heavy bolter == volkite culverins (no point costs). +9" range, +1 shot, +1 strength, and mortal wounds on 6s is worth -1 AP. And also -1 shot and shorter range on the volkite caliver. Because feth points. (also autocannons work in here for one set of mounts, which is even more lauable).

Agreed, losing AP-1 is really not a big deal in the era of AOC.

Yeah, it's a good thing that the only armies in the game are marines and as such every army has access to Armor of Contempt.

It's still a decent percentage of your matchups, and volkite still isn't bad against non-marines.

Yeah, I would say it's an outright upgrade, really.
Heavy bolters fire 3 shots at S5 AP-1 and D2 at 36"
Volkite culverins fire 4 shots at S6 AP0 D2 at 45" range with mortal wound procs

The culverins are just better over all and you get them for free. That's just poor balance.
Why would you ever keep heavy bolters when you can get the superior option?

At least with the caliver you have to sacrifice range, RoF and AP for a point of strength, so I can see the logic with it being free as it would a side grade from heavy bolters, but culverins? Just poor design.

Also, the datasheet doesn't list heavy bolters, which is just poor formatting.


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Voss wrote:
We're seeing that more and more though. The guard squads in the dataslate, for example. And various other units scattered throughout books. I suspect its the next paradigm shift, where upgrades are going to largely be free, regardless.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Yeah, it's a good thing that the only armies in the game are marines and as such every army has access to Armor of Contempt.

That's true of the face of it, but also... orks, daemons, guard, tau, a fair chunk of eldar units... it actually doesn't matter. The extra shot, extra strength and chance of mortal wounds is significantly better.
Against anything t3 you're now wounding on a 2+, so the fact that they don't get their save reduced is a wash. But now there's an extra shot and a chance of mortal wounds as well.

Yeah, looking more closely at the stats, there's no reason to not take the culverin over the heavy bolter if its a free upgrade.


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 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Maybe it's the other way around? The base cost already accounts for all of the best weapon options, and the problem is that you're not getting a discount for choosing lesser options.

Which is a bad idea in itself, as then you're paying too many points if you don't take the best options.
I miss budget builds.

I like it, look about right at 320 pts.
What happened to the old 1 PL = 20 pts coversion though? 320 pts =/= 44 PL. (Not that I care about PL in the slightest, I just thought it would be 400+ pts before I saw the actual pointcosts.)

My only real issue is the internal balance on the weapons on the Kratos, especially between the three main guns.
It's a massive fail on GW's part: Just spamming Volkite in general will probably be the best option against 99% of all potential targets.

Kratos: Battle Cannon:
Heavy 1 on the AP is a massive fail, especially since it doesn't get +1 to hit like Lancers and Repulsor Executioners. It should be Heavy 2 at the very least. Right now shooting HE is probably better against the intended targets of the AP-rounds.
(One would think that GW would've learned from the whole LR Battle Cannon vs. Vanquisher by now, but nope...)

Melta blast-gun:
It's a... twin-linked Multimelta with slightly longer range - on a 320 pts heavy tank. Whopeedoo! It's not "bad", it's just underwhelming and boring (and this is coming from a Salamanders-player)
Space Marines have no shortage of Multimeltas on cheaper, faster platforms.

The Volkite Cardanelle isn't just unique (and so, more fun) in this scenario, it's just plain better in general.

I miss budget builds.

Same. I don't quite like the look of the sponsons, so would've been pleased with the ability to pay ~30 points less to not have them.

Its crap.

The Battlecannon AP is a single shot, which is a massive problem. A hammerhead does it better for half the points.
The HE profile lacks AP so outside of like Nid Warriors your going to bounce of whatever 3 wound thing your shooting.

The Melta is still a lol worthy D6 damage

The Volkite again lacks AP and needs multiple 6's to seem worth it.

 Ordana wrote:
Its crap.

The Battlecannon AP is a single shot, which is a massive problem. A hammerhead does it better for half the points.
The HE profile lacks AP so outside of like Nid Warriors your going to bounce of whatever 3 wound thing your shooting.

The Melta is still a lol worthy D6 damage

The Volkite again lacks AP and needs multiple 6's to seem worth it.

Yeah, but you get 8 shots on the volkite and it inflicts two mortal wounds for every proc.
It's the same range as the other volkite weapons (with the exception of the caliver), so if you just use volkites you can proc quite a few mortal wounds in a single turn without even having to get too close to the target.

Which, given that the other options aren't great, means that it's best role is that of a MW dispenser. Which is pretty lame.

It's a nice model, but the 40k rules for it are stupid.
Maybe it's better balanced and designed in Heresy, I dunno.

Land Raider Achilles has 2 less wounds but a 5+ invul and can arguably hit harder than the Kratos for just 20 points more.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Land Raider Achilles has 2 less wounds but a 5+ invul and can arguably hit harder than the Kratos for just 20 points more.

5+ invuln is redundant in a world with AoC.

you'd need to save against ap5 for the invuln to matter