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Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Looking forward to trying the new codex! I've painted my thousand sons and CSM in the same scheme so I can inter change units as well which is cool.

Definitely running Abby with some terminators then sprinkling loads of venom crawlers, possessed etc in there oh and definitely a disco lord
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Thariinye wrote:
Looking further through this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH2lSGQOWko) to check out actual rules, and some good things.

1) The Cult Demagogue in the Dark Commune is a character, and the Look Out, Sir rule actually protects the entire unit - LOS requires only that the unit 'contain any character models <9W' and then the whole unit can't get shot if it's being protected. So the Commune isn't going to get shot off the board immediately, other units can take the shots. Still probably not that great, but it does let you cram Prescience + Dark Zealotry (or other niche powers/prayers) into a single unit for 100 points that would cost 190 to take as power-armored guys.

2) Let the Galaxy Burn works on warpflame weapons because the definition of Flame Weapons in the codex refers to any weapon that has the word 'flame' in its profile. So a 10-strong rubric marine unit does 27 autohits at minimum if all the rubrics have flamers, and on average does almost 50 S4 autohits at AP-2. Even though they don't gain your legion trait, they do gain your legion keyword, so all of your legion-keyed buffs work on them. The Sorcerer can know Warptime by default, so Advance + Warptime can get a 24+d6" threat range. I play Alpha Legion, so with the pre-game move that gets you up to 30+d6" threat range on Turn 1. Even though it looks like they can't gain the Icon keyword for the extra AP without errata, that's still quite a reasonable threat. And you can use VotLW on them for +1 to wound, or the Great Sorcerer to get action + psychic power.

Or, if you equip the Rubrics with bolters, even though you don't get the Icon, you can use the new Demon Shells strat to give them an extra 6" of range AND a further -1 AP, so now you've got AP-3 bolters, and you can juice that up further with Relentless Devastation to get full rapid-fire out to 30". Honestly, it seems like Rubrics are one of the better units to take buffs. They'll be very command point hungry, but it feels like they're one of the better ranged anti-infantry options we've got.

3) And speaking of Warptime, even though it's nerfed, I still think it'll be very useful for a few other units as well. A fully kitted Plague Marine Squad with 2 Blight Launchers and 3 Plasmaguns (one on the champ) can be moved up much faster than in a Death Guard army, and therefore can be used more effectively as a bullying tool. Unfortunately they don't get Inexorable Advance (not in a Death Guard detachment) so their output won't be as great and they are affected by difficult terrain.

4) Between Rubric Sorcerers, the Dark Commune, and the Balefire Tome, there's a lot of ways to get a bunch of random psykers into the army, so it might be worthwhile to go for a secondary like Psychic Interrogation. You can easily build your army to have enough redundancy in psykers so that you're not losing the spells you need on the turns you need them.



Point 1 and 4) I hadn't looked so closely at this HQ unit yet because the models are not even out. But you are right, it has amazing utility. I will seriously consider using this. I was initially really happy because I wanted a cheap psyker character to do a warpcraft secondary like Mental Interrogate or Warp Ritual. The Dark Commune now stuck me as the perfect unit for it. However, my hopes seems to be dashed later when I read more closely and realised that only the Cult Demogogue is a character. Now this is a plus because you don't give up tons of easy Assasinate points. But on the flip side, Mental Interrogate and warp ritual both require psyker characters.

This is my biggest problem right now. Dark Commune, an aspiring champion with balefire tome, or even a rubric marine aspiring sorceror. These can all cast psychic but they are NOT characters! So, none of these three can actually perform mental interrogate or psychic ritual... Someone correct me if I am wrong. But that's how I understand this. And this is rather a big issue, because we don't have faction secondaries which are super easy to score, so having the option to do warpcraft secondaries is pretty important for us. This is especially because our psykers are too good not to take, which means we can't take abhor the witch. This means we really should try and take a warpcraft secondary if we can (since we are bringing psykers anyway). But it goes back to a point I made in my previous posts. I seriously do not want to take a sorceror or master of possession and have him perform a psychic action secondary.

Points 2 and 3). I think Rubric marines are a great consideration for our army. I hadn't done the math so closely on them, but now that I think of it. 10D6+20 flamer hits sound absolutely disgusting. And this are auto hit too. lol Seriously, we have just so many good choices in our elite slots. Lucky we can take 6 elite choices in a battalion. (Where are we even going to find the points...) And I agree with your excellent points. Warptime is going to be sick on flamer Rubric Marines.

I also think people are sleeping on Alpha legion somewhat. The ability to redeploy 3 alpha legion units before the battle start, plus the ability to scout move one or more units 9 inches before battle start is huge. This is the only CSM legion that can do this. There is a matchplay mission where you don't gain CP if you are not on an objective in no man's land. Alpha legion is the only CSM legion that won't be disadvantaged on this mission.

BTW, can I check? If we bring a rubric marine squad, can the psyker aspiring sorceror cast warptime on another legion infantry unit? Or can they only cast warptime on themselves. Don't know if there are any weird keyword restrictions in this case. I mean, a black legion rubric marine squad is still black legion right? So their warptime should work on other black legion units?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/07/01 02:22:45


 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Yes, rubric marines get <LEGION>, they can cast their psychic powers on any other CSM unit in your army.
GW is definetely going to nerf cult troops somehow.
   
Made in de
Hellacious Havoc




The Realm of Hungry Ghosts

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I seriously do not want to take a sorceror or master of possession and have him perform a psychic action secondary.


I get that we'll be wanting our MoPs to cast their powers, but why not take a Sorceror for the psychic actions? The Sorceror's powers can be made available elsewhere and one of our Sorceror's strengths lies in the two DTW attempts he gets in the enemy's psychic phase.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/01 09:07:55


Bharring wrote:
At worst, you'll spend all your time and money on a hobby you don't enjoy, hate everything you're doing, and drive no value out of what should be the best times of your life.
 
   
Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





United Kingdom

I like the idea of a Slaanesh Daemon Prince with rapacious talons and “stimulated by pain” and intoxicating elixir (I believe there is a stratagem to put two relics on a character). The amount of attacks will be absolutely crazy, and if he injures himself with his daemon weapon he will get even more
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Snugiraffe wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
I seriously do not want to take a sorceror or master of possession and have him perform a psychic action secondary.


I get that we'll be wanting our MoPs to cast their powers, but why not take a Sorceror for the psychic actions? The Sorceror's powers can be made available elsewhere and one of our Sorceror's strengths lies in the two DTW attempts he gets in the enemy's psychic phase.


Yeah, it seems like at this point we have to. Because the kill secondaries are not always reliable (depends on matchup). So having warpcraft secondaries as an option is important. I just feel like its a bit of a waste that instead of casting two psychic, we are getting our sorceror to just perform 1 psychic action. We could spend a command point for great sorceror to have him cast a psychic and do an action, but that would require he be mark of tzeentch plus using command points which are precious these days.

We also have to build in some redundancy because if we are planning to use this sorceror just for doing psychic secondaries, that means we can't rely on the psychic that he does have.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

I am considering two MoPs, one for psychic actions. He can get +4 to psychic tests, +1 from venomcrawler, +2 from sacrifial dagger, and +1 from a relic.
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





 p5freak wrote:
I am considering two MoPs, one for psychic actions. He can get +4 to psychic tests, +1 from venomcrawler, +2 from sacrifial dagger, and +1 from a relic.


Yeah, +4 to cast is wild. It does require using the sacrificial dagger though, and since we can't use it on cultists, that means we have a 66% chance of killing a 18 point legionare. lol

A terminator sorceror is not bad too. He can take chaos familiar for just 5 points, and shoot too. The first time he miscast and you need to use the chaos familiar for the reroll, that's 1 command point saved. 5 points in exchange for 1 command point is so good. He is also much tankier, which makes him a good combatant. He can also have the option to use a force sword instead of a force staff. Cast diabolic strength on him in a pinch and he goes up to 7 attacks at Str7 with a force weapon doing D3 damage each. That's nothing to sneeze at. And a black legion Termi sorceror will hit on WS2s when he charges. People are in for a nasty surprise if they think our sorceror cannot fight! lol

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/01 13:19:45


 
   
Made in gb
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




Daemon Princes with 1 cast are good psychic secondary choices. They tend to be more aggressive/survivable so get up close in the early turns. In the later turns, when the DP has died, you probably don't have as many full sized units left to cast buff spells on, so you can just do the secondary with the Sorc/MoP if the points matter.

I don't think they will nerf Rubrics and the other cult marines (but I believe their Icons will be left as is so they don't work with CSM). They are good but expensive. And most of the Legion traits are very strong (lol Night Lords) so you do miss them when you lose them.

Abbaddon is on the nerf chopping block. As is the -1 to wound relic that goes on a unit (it will probably just get taken off the list that can go on a unit champion in the first FAQ).

Other than that all the main data sheets seem to be in the good but not too good area.
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





There are too many good relics we can take. Not to mention good warlord traits as well... And to compound that problem, we have good strategems to use too. Sigh.... tough tough decisions...

A CSM army is going to be very fun to play in a crusade game, where relics and warlord traits all don't cost CP and are instead built up with requisition points and experience. And if you face an opponent with a higher crusade points army than yours, you get even more CP to use on strategems!

Matchplay though.... wow, we are going to feel the pinch. BTW, GW clarified? How do we treat named characters like Abaddon in Matchplay? Do we have to pay CP for his relics and his warlord traits?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/01 13:44:20


 
   
Made in gb
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




Any thoughts on the rules wording for the MoP +2 to cast from the dagger. Can you choose to use it after you see your roll?
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





EightFoldPath wrote:
Daemon Princes with 1 cast are good psychic secondary choices. They tend to be more aggressive/survivable so get up close in the early turns. In the later turns, when the DP has died, you probably don't have as many full sized units left to cast buff spells on, so you can just do the secondary with the Sorc/MoP if the points matter.

I don't think they will nerf Rubrics and the other cult marines (but I believe their Icons will be left as is so they don't work with CSM). They are good but expensive. And most of the Legion traits are very strong (lol Night Lords) so you do miss them when you lose them.

Abbaddon is on the nerf chopping block. As is the -1 to wound relic that goes on a unit (it will probably just get taken off the list that can go on a unit champion in the first FAQ).

Other than that all the main data sheets seem to be in the good but not too good area.


Yeah, I agree that DPs are good. They are very expensive in points though. It feels like Abaddon is already too good not to take. So, if we are also taking a MOP and a flying DP. That's almost 600 points into characters alone. Our army is going to be smaller considering we are only spending 1400 points on it. Let's give Abaddon a month or two before we talk about whether he should get nerfed. Right now, he is carrying a lot of the CSM armies on his shoulders. The rest of our CSM datasheets are actually not super fantastic. I don't really see anything so powerful I would want to spam. I mean, Venomcrawlers are good because they are cheap, not because they are so OP three of them are going to destroy everything. (And we need some bikes for the option to do some of the secondaries). And terminators... well, lots of armies all have 3W terminators with armor of contempt. Its not the terminator bloc that is so scary, its that Abaddon is likely marching up alongside the terminator bloc that makes that entire force super scary. lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EightFoldPath wrote:
Any thoughts on the rules wording for the MoP +2 to cast from the dagger. Can you choose to use it after you see your roll?


I have seen leaks but I don't have the actual book yet. What's the exact wording on this sacrificial dagger?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/01 13:43:14


 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Eldenfirefly wrote:


Yeah, +4 to cast is wild. It does require using the sacrificial dagger though, and since we can't use it on cultists, that means we have a 66% chance of killing a 18 point legionare. lol


So what ? Bring him back with pact of flesh


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EightFoldPath wrote:
Any thoughts on the rules wording for the MoP +2 to cast from the dagger. Can you choose to use it after you see your roll?


No, because after the psychic test roll the attempt is over. The dagger is used when attempting the psychic power.

Spoiler:

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/01 13:57:10


 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





 p5freak wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:


Yeah, +4 to cast is wild. It does require using the sacrificial dagger though, and since we can't use it on cultists, that means we have a 66% chance of killing a 18 point legionare. lol


So what ? Bring him back with pact of flesh


Well.. only on turn 1 if you go first. lol I am sure after that, there will be far better units you can cast pact of flesh on to heal and bring back a model.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/07/01 14:30:54


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





Loving what I've seen of the new codex so far for the faction overall. But I do feel like Night Lords got kind of screwed this edition.

1/ Both their Legion traits are situational. All other legions got two traits that are always on and army wide and are not affected by their opponents attributes. NLs -2 leadership is always on and army wide but with a -3 cap anything with 8 or 9+ leadership will basically not be effected as the 2nd part of the trait and many of the Night Lords best abilities rely on leadership 5 or less so pretty situational and/or opponent dependent. Leadership manipulation or attrition modifiers are generally pretty meh anyway...ugh!
2/ Many of the Night Lords Stratagems, Relics and Warlord traits are focused on melee, but they lost the ability for Lords/Sorcerers to support their melee units like Raptors and Warp Talons (no jump packs). Daemon prince is pretty much the only option now as termi lords are too slow. In addition they lost the strat that gives 3d6 charge from deep strike so overall their melee capability has been hit pretty hard (no pun intended).
3/ A lot of the coolest new stuff is based around cultists, MoP, Daemonkin and Daemon Engines but of course in the fluff Night Lords don't really roll with any of this stuff so none of their strats and other abilities support this new hotness in any way.

So as a Night Lords player the new codex is bittersweet for me :(

If I'm missing something please correct me so I can get more excited for the boys in Midnight Clad...


This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2022/07/01 14:22:50


 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Curze08 wrote:
Loving what I've seen of the new codex so far for the faction overall. But I do feel like Night Lords got kind of screwed this edition.

1/ Both their Legion traits are situational - most other legions got at least 1 part of their traits that are army wide, always on or both. And some like Word Bearers and Red Corsairs got two traits that are always on and army wide. Ok, -2 leadership is always on and army wide but with a -3 cap anything with 8 or 9+ leadership will basically not be effected as many of the Night Lords best abilities rely on leadership 5 or less.
2/ Many of the Night Lords Stratagems, Relics and Warlord traits are focused on melee, but they lost the ability for Lords/Sorcerers to support their melee units like Raptors and Warp Talons (no jump packs).
3/ A lot of the coolest new stuff is based around cultists, Daemonkin and Daemon Engines but of course in the fluff Night Lords don't really roll with any of this stuff so none of their strats and other abilities support this new hotness in any way. In addition they lost the strat that gives 3d6 charge from deep strike so overall their melee capability has been hit pretty hard (no pun intended).

So as a Night Lords player the new codex is bittersweet :(

If I'm missing something please correct me so I can get more excited for the boys in Midnight Clad...


I haven't look so closely at Night Lords because my first love is black legion. But I will give it a try. Sorry if I am wrong because I am not really a Night Lords player.

On point 1, it feels like rather than trying to build for it. The idea is to smash into your opponent in melee and inflict severe damage. Then he would automatically have to take morale at a -2 and combat attrition. I mean, not every army is custodes with Ld 11. The typical space marine squad is Ld8, and that gets brought down to Ld 6 once the Nightlord trait triggers. So just inflict severe damage and let them take leadership checks to fail morale and have models run away? Try not to go for overkilling a unit. (Might need a lot of practise to get this right though).

On point 2. Well, unfortunately we can't reverse that now. The codex is already out and we know those are now no longer a thing. We will need to rely on a flying Daemon Prince, and maybe deep striking terminator lords/sorcerors or fast moving Lord Discordants. :(

On point 3. Looking at the Night lords strategems and relics. They buff fast moving melee units. So bring 3 big squads of fast attack? (Be it raptors or warptalons or bikes). 2 max squad of warp talons and 1 max squad of bikes is a lot of points (around 900?). I guess the rest can be driven up in Rhinos or deep struck in. I kind of like the idea of luring the enemy in towards your lines, and then surrounding them in a pincer attack with deep strike units, warp talons and bikes. Seems like what Night Lords would do.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/01 14:27:41


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





I haven't look so closely at Night Lords because my first love is black legion. But I will give it a try. Sorry if I am wrong because I am not really a Night Lords player.

On point 1, it feels like rather than trying to build for it. The idea is to smash into your opponent in melee and inflict severe damage. Then he would automatically have to take morale at a -2 and combat attrition. I mean, not every army is custodes with Ld 11. The typical space marine squad is Ld8, and that gets brought down to Ld 6 once the Nightlord trait triggers.


Sure but its something that has limited application. I know many of the other legion traits have specific conditions to trigger but most of them seem to have much easier ways to make use of them and few if any of them are completely nullified by some armies/units.

On point 2. Well, unfortunately we can't reverse that now. The codex is already out and we know those are now no longer a thing. We will need to rely on a flying Daemon Prince, and maybe deep striking terminator lords/sorcerors or fast moving Lord Discordants. :(


Yep

On point 3. Looking at the Night lords strategems and relics. They buff fast moving melee units. So bring 3 big squads of fast attack? (Be it raptors or warptalons or bikes). 2 max squad of warp talons and 1 max squad of bikes is a lot of points (around 900?). I guess the rest can be driven up in Rhinos or deep struck in. I kind of like the idea of luring the enemy in towards your lines, and then surrounding them in a pincer attack with deep strike units, warp talons and bikes. Seems like what Night Lords would do.


Sure, but pretty vanilla and does not interact any way with the coolest and most interesting stuff in the new codex.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/01 14:43:24


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Didn’t catch that the psychic secondaries needed characters (if you can’t tell, haven’t actually played much recently) to pull off the actions. So that cuts out the balefire tome and the rubric sorcerer. However, if the nephilim language stays the same as Nachmund, the commune should still be able to do the actions. It says “psyker character unit” must do it, and the demagogue being a character makes the whole unit a character unit (see core clues about keywords). So the commune should still be go, even though the model casting powers isn’t the character!

I also have the forgeworld traitor librarian in terminator armor model, so I’d love for sorcerers to be good enough to take.
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Thariinye wrote:
Didn’t catch that the psychic secondaries needed characters (if you can’t tell, haven’t actually played much recently) to pull off the actions. So that cuts out the balefire tome and the rubric sorcerer. However, if the nephilim language stays the same as Nachmund, the commune should still be able to do the actions. It says “psyker character unit” must do it, and the demagogue being a character makes the whole unit a character unit (see core clues about keywords). So the commune should still be go, even though the model casting powers isn’t the character!

I also have the forgeworld traitor librarian in terminator armor model, so I’d love for sorcerers to be good enough to take.


Hmm, you are right. It does say Psyker Character unit in Nephilim! This brings up possibilities! Very interesting!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmmm... have a question. Some of our codex relics like Blade of the Relentless reads "Each time an attack is made with this weapon, on an unmodified hit roll of 6, the target suffers 2 mortal wounds and the attack sequence ends."

So, how does this interact with Wanton Slaughter which gives exploding 6s on an unmodified 6 to hit?

So, when we do roll a 6 to hit in this case, do we get both inflict 2MW and an extra automatic hit? Or is it just 2MW only (no extra automatic hit) ?

Also, would like to say that I wish we had more CP. lol Blade of the Relentless on a Champion is very powerful. All our champions have 4 attacks base. This Blade of the Relentless if given to a Champion gives them 5 attacks with such a rule to inflict 2MW as well. Very nice! It can replace a power sword, and any Raptor/Chosen/terminator/legionaire/biker Champion can replace his weapon with a power sword. So we can use the "trophies of the Long war" strategem to give one of our Champion such a relic. The relic has a profile of Str +1, AP4 !! and Damage 2, and +1 attack. (Its already good but this additional rule pushes it to great!

We can use this strategem twice in a strike force army (2000 points).

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/07/01 18:50:38


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Can't see it happening - because Word Bearers had a joke trait for 5 years - but a campaign to change the Nightlords chapter tactic might have legs. We know GW have faqed things in the past.

Its probably unique in being potentially quite ludicrous into certain armies - and being utterly worthless versus others. For example big Knights are never going to be down to LD 5, never be at half strength and are never going to take a morale test.

Then by contrast (and its not meta etc) if someone ran blobs of 30 Boyz, you can fairly easily stick -3 LD on them, bringing them down to LD4, so you can kill just 3 for a 5/6 chance to fail morale. At which point 9-10 would run away. Which is a bit crazy really.
   
Made in gb
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




Tyel wrote:
Its probably unique in being potentially quite ludicrous into certain armies - and being utterly worthless versus others. For example big Knights are never going to be down to LD 5, never be at half strength and are never going to take a morale test.

Then by contrast (and its not meta etc) if someone ran blobs of 30 Boyz, you can fairly easily stick -3 LD on them, bringing them down to LD4, so you can kill just 3 for a 5/6 chance to fail morale. At which point 9-10 would run away. Which is a bit crazy really.

Congratulations, you are now overqualified for the position of GW rules writer.
   
Made in us
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler






So, other than the chaincannon, what is the weapon of choice for Havoks? I was leaning toward missiles for the flexibility, but heavy bolters seem good too.

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion

DR:80SGMB--I--Pw40k01#-D++++A+/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
So, other than the chaincannon, what is the weapon of choice for Havoks? I was leaning toward missiles for the flexibility, but heavy bolters seem good too.
What's the price point of Heavy Bolters versus Chaincannons?

Because if they're the same statline as in 8th, the Chaincannon is better than the Heavy Bolter, always. The only advantage the Heavy Bolter has is range, but even if you have to move (and take a hit penalty-the ability to ignore that was removed from Havoks, right?) to hit with the Chaincannon but not the Heavy Bolter, you're looking at two D2 hits as compared to four D1 hits, all at the same Strength and AP.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Lord Blackscale wrote:
So, other than the chaincannon, what is the weapon of choice for Havoks? I was leaning toward missiles for the flexibility, but heavy bolters seem good too.


I am going with Lascannons for mine. Its not the best anti-tank out there, but its damage profile is threatening enough that people will still want to try and take them out. And with armor of contempt and T5 now, they are harder to kill than what people expect as long as I keep them in cover. Abaddon can also give them on Turn 1 reroll all hits and wounds. That would make them more scary. (Assuming there are no other good targets for that command ability on turn 1).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/07/02 01:49:46


 
   
Made in us
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler






I will have 1 full squad of chaincannons. I will have enough to make 1 more squad with another weapon. I take it lascannon is the way to go then?

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion

DR:80SGMB--I--Pw40k01#-D++++A+/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Lord Blackscale wrote:
I will have 1 full squad of chaincannons. I will have enough to make 1 more squad with another weapon. I take it lascannon is the way to go then?


I guess its also how happy you are with the balance between anti-tank and anti-infantry weapons in your army. If you are black legion, on Turn 1, the chain cannon squad that get's Abbadon's full rerolls is going to be to be doing a ton of damage, even on vehicles. 32 shots with exploding 6s (because wanton destruction), reroll all hits and wounds... A full chain cannon Havoc squad will get 13 to 14 wounds through the saves of a T7 or T8 vehicle with a 3+ save. That will kill most standard vehicles. And this is against a profile that a chain cannon is not supposed to be that great against. But its 24 inches though, so on turn 1, there may not be any good vehicle targets within range. This is where the lascannon is more versatile because it has 48 inch range.

The Lascannon on the other hand, will only ever be good against elite infantry or vehicles or monsters. I do think a mix of both anti-infantry and anti-tank is good in your army. Like if you happens to face a deadly aircraft or a Magnus on turn 1 and you go first. Then you would be glad you at least had the Lascannons that can now shoot into it from 48 inches out. (He would place these away from your reaper chain cannons unless he under-estimated them).

Bear in mind though that we can only get exploding 6s on turn 1. Once turn 2 comes, we are now in wanton massacre so no more exploding 6s on heavy weapons. But then again, I am sure there will much more that we benefit in our armies from wanton massacre on turn 2, when most of the armies have all come out to play. (Turn 1, most of them may be hiding)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/02 03:22:25


 
   
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 JNAProductions wrote:
 Lord Blackscale wrote:
So, other than the chaincannon, what is the weapon of choice for Havoks? I was leaning toward missiles for the flexibility, but heavy bolters seem good too.
What's the price point of Heavy Bolters versus Chaincannons?

The not power level but trying to be style points costing for the unit is 125 points per squad with Heavy Bolters, Havoc Autocannons (H2 7 -2 2) and 145 points per squad with Missile Launchers, Reaper Chaincannons or Lascannons (actually 5 points per one you add of each).

Mathematically, the Lascannons are the best damage into Tanks (T7 3+) and also AoC Terminators (T4 1+), while Chaincannons (and the cheaper Havoc Autocannons) are the same damage vs. both T4 1+ and T7 3+.

The Heavy Bolters are the worst option at all times, but are 20 points cheaper.

If you are taking the Terminator heavy build I've suggested is probably where many will end up, the Chaincannons do the same job as the Bolters.

If you go Possessed as your core unit and then take other combat units, then you might want the Chaincannons to clear out screens.
   
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So which is best against Necrons? I know chaincannons are good for clearing them out, but the quicker I can kill a unit, the less stand up again. It sounds like I should go with lascannons again. Any reason to ever take missles?

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion

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Thinking further about the Dark Commune, specifically what choices for prayers or powers are viable. You don't get any of the god-marked stuff, cause they can't be marked (no Chaos Undivided keyword), so it's just the first three prayers and first three powers.

Prayers:
-Benediction of Darkness sounds like it should be good, +1 saves from light cover + AoC can really help a unit survive, but unfortunately it's units wholly within 6" of the priest (all distances measured just from the priest) so you're really going to struggle getting any big good units wholly within. Like I wanted to use this on a block of 10 terminators or a Lord Discordant, but keeping them wholly within 6" of the priest model sounds too difficult to really try for.
-Litany of Despair is probably the best overall, though it's not that great - still, giving fight last isn't bad.
-Omen of Potency - no. Probably always a trap unless it's on like a Word Bearers Dark Apostle with relics and stuff.

So basically you're probably taking litany of despair or benediction of darkness, maybe casting benediction first turn or so, and then just using Dark Zealotry.

Powers:
-Infernal Gaze is a targetable smite, so if you want some extra mortal wounds, it's not bad. CSM have enough psykers to do a reasonable number of mortal wounds in this phase.
-Prescience is never bad. Hard to cast, but always a good effect.
-Diabolic Strength to me has too many restrictions - only usable on a single infantry or spawn model, so that means it's best used on infantry characters (would rather you could cast it on a DP or Lord Discordant). Really you want to use this on Abaddon, but you have to be Black Legion to do that.

So for powers it's probably Prescience to get redunancy, or Gaze if you either need or want more flexible mortal wound options.
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Thariinye wrote:
Thinking further about the Dark Commune, specifically what choices for prayers or powers are viable. You don't get any of the god-marked stuff, cause they can't be marked (no Chaos Undivided keyword), so it's just the first three prayers and first three powers.

Prayers:
-Benediction of Darkness sounds like it should be good, +1 saves from light cover + AoC can really help a unit survive, but unfortunately it's units wholly within 6" of the priest (all distances measured just from the priest) so you're really going to struggle getting any big good units wholly within. Like I wanted to use this on a block of 10 terminators or a Lord Discordant, but keeping them wholly within 6" of the priest model sounds too difficult to really try for.
-Litany of Despair is probably the best overall, though it's not that great - still, giving fight last isn't bad.
-Omen of Potency - no. Probably always a trap unless it's on like a Word Bearers Dark Apostle with relics and stuff.

So basically you're probably taking litany of despair or benediction of darkness, maybe casting benediction first turn or so, and then just using Dark Zealotry.

Powers:
-Infernal Gaze is a targetable smite, so if you want some extra mortal wounds, it's not bad. CSM have enough psykers to do a reasonable number of mortal wounds in this phase.
-Prescience is never bad. Hard to cast, but always a good effect.
-Diabolic Strength to me has too many restrictions - only usable on a single infantry or spawn model, so that means it's best used on infantry characters (would rather you could cast it on a DP or Lord Discordant). Really you want to use this on Abaddon, but you have to be Black Legion to do that.

So for powers it's probably Prescience to get redunancy, or Gaze if you either need or want more flexible mortal wound options.


Yeah, but I feel that the Dark Commune is still great because if you take Dark Commune, then using the psyker to perform a psychic action so efficient because the spells aren't so essential or powerful like those the Master of possession has. And the prayer is still a prayer. So like you get to perform a prayer and do a psychic action all for 100 points. Whereas if you took a dark apostle, you can only perform a prayer (only world bearer's dark apostle can be made to do two prayers). Given the combat nature of CSM datasheets in 9th edition, Dark Zealotry is a ideal for us and its an aura that affects units (who don't need to be wholly within). So, that big unit of terminators will benefit from it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lord Blackscale wrote:
So which is best against Necrons? I know chaincannons are good for clearing them out, but the quicker I can kill a unit, the less stand up again. It sounds like I should go with lascannons again. Any reason to ever take missles?


I think missile launchers is only good if you want the flexibility of being its two profiles. Otherwise, if you just want the anti-tank, then lascannons are better. Oh, there is also a missile strategem that does MW to flyers. But its super situational (you need to be facing flyers and just happen to have a missile launcher). Not sure it would be worth it to be honest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A side note on legionaries. I am finding that if you plan to send your legionaries up the board (and why wouldn't you). A power fist is more important than anything else, even marks. A legionaire unit with a power fist champ immediately can handle just about anything in combat Vehicles or high toughness stuff, and the power fist profile is great into marines with its AP3. The rest of the squad has enough attacks to handle 1W infantry just fine.

In contrast. Taking Marks seems to be only worth it for big units, because it makes a small minimum 5 unit so expensive if you start taking marks on that unit. Yet, if you are bringing a big 10 man... why aren't you just taking a 5 man elite infantry plus a 5 man barebones legionaire unit. It might be a little more points, but you get so much more. Plus two 5 man squads is definitely more versatile than one big unwieldy squad. If its for buffs, a lot of strategems are cheaper on small squads too (the nurgle transhuman one is a great example of that, its just 1 CP on a 5 min squad). And together, the 5 man elite plus 5 man legionaire will likely do better in fighting than a 10 man marked legionaire.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/07/03 03:21:22


 
   
 
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