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Voss wrote:


Maybe no one is 'getting shafted' by a five game hot streak? This is exactly why I said 'spin.'
Sure, losing several times in a row isn't fun, but that still isn't an obligation for the other player (whose side of the story we haven't heard and probably won't)

You should be respectful of other player's fun and generally try to avoid skew lists in casual (low points and non tournament) 40k games, just like you should avoid gouging someone's eyes in a sparring match. A game of 40k is a mutually agreed sparring match, not a street fight with someone you jumped behind the strip club.

It's very easy to create truly awful, and damn near unbeatable, lists in the 1k and below range. That doesn't mean you should do it. Wargames operate on a kind of gentlemen's agreement, and if you make it clear you're only there for yourself you'll quickly have no one to play with. Tournament play is a different matter obviously, as the entire point there is to do everything in your power to win.

 morganfreeman wrote:

Voss wrote:


Maybe no one is 'getting shafted' by a five game hot streak? This is exactly why I said 'spin.'
Sure, losing several times in a row isn't fun, but that still isn't an obligation for the other player (whose side of the story we haven't heard and probably won't)

You should be respectful of other player's fun and generally try to avoid skew lists in casual (low points and non tournament) 40k games, just like you should avoid gouging someone's eyes in a sparring match. A game of 40k is a mutually agreed sparring match, not a street fight with someone you jumped behind the strip club.

It's very easy to create truly awful, and damn near unbeatable, lists in the 1k and below range. That doesn't mean you should do it. Wargames operate on a kind of gentlemen's agreement, and if you make it clear you're only there for yourself you'll quickly have no one to play with. Tournament play is a different matter obviously, as the entire point there is to do everything in your power to win.

Losing =/= no fun
Losing = learning

I fully support Magnus in 1K games. Overcoming that challenge is only going to make someone a better player. If you take it on the chin 20 times trying to figure out how to win and still had fun trying then nothing bad actually happened.

 Gert wrote:

Voss wrote:
Wait, why is it 'not necessarily an option' for one player to modify their army but it is for the other?

How much would it cost to rededicate the army to killing Magnus compared to the Tsons player just not using Magnus?
The OP said Magnus only showed up recently implying Magnus wasn't there from the start, which indicates to me that the Tsons player has access to units to fill the Magnus-sized hole in the list. The other option would be the OP buying a load of new units to remake their current army just to kill one model that could just be politely removed until larger games are played so both players don't end up with anybody to do 40k with.

If OP can't deal with Magnus at all, he's probably going to have problems with whatever fills that void in the points. You can't make an army without any anti-tank and then get mad because your friends favorite models are tanks.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:

Voss wrote:


Maybe no one is 'getting shafted' by a five game hot streak? This is exactly why I said 'spin.'
Sure, losing several times in a row isn't fun, but that still isn't an obligation for the other player (whose side of the story we haven't heard and probably won't)

You should be respectful of other player's fun and generally try to avoid skew lists in casual (low points and non tournament) 40k games, just like you should avoid gouging someone's eyes in a sparring match. A game of 40k is a mutually agreed sparring match, not a street fight with someone you jumped behind the strip club.

It's very easy to create truly awful, and damn near unbeatable, lists in the 1k and below range. That doesn't mean you should do it. Wargames operate on a kind of gentlemen's agreement, and if you make it clear you're only there for yourself you'll quickly have no one to play with. Tournament play is a different matter obviously, as the entire point there is to do everything in your power to win.

Losing =/= no fun
Losing = learning

I fully support Magnus in 1K games. Overcoming that challenge is only going to make someone a better player. If you take it on the chin 20 times trying to figure out how to win and still had fun trying then nothing bad actually happened.

Correct simply loosing is not equivalent to no fun.
However, speaking from lots of experience, no one enjoys a game where they set their models out, only to have the vast majority of them be removed before they even get a chance to activate.
Setting up an army only to have it be a shooting gallery or a pinata to be beat on and get to do near nothing in return is a very very VERY quick way to be burned out on the hobby

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Correct simply loosing is not equivalent to no fun.
However, speaking from lots of experience, no one enjoys a game where they set their models out, only to have the vast majority of them be removed before they even get a chance to activate.
Setting up an army only to have it be a shooting gallery or a pinata to be beat on and get to do near nothing in return is a very very VERY quick way to be burned out on the hobby

In what way does Magnus do this that a number of points spent on other units wouldn't?

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Correct simply loosing is not equivalent to no fun.
However, speaking from lots of experience, no one enjoys a game where they set their models out, only to have the vast majority of them be removed before they even get a chance to activate.
Setting up an army only to have it be a shooting gallery or a pinata to be beat on and get to do near nothing in return is a very very VERY quick way to be burned out on the hobby

In what way does Magnus do this that a number of points spent on other units wouldn't?

Im not talking magnus, specifically, im just talking in general, loosing is not necessarily not fun, but if you get dick stomped constantly its definitely not fun.
Magnus, depended on what he does CAN do this but its a lot harder to pull off.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Im not talking magnus, specifically, im just talking in general, loosing is not necessarily not fun, but if you get dick stomped constantly its definitely not fun.
Magnus, depended on what he does CAN do this but its a lot harder to pull off.

At a certain point, your losses are on you. In the OPs case they're losing because they're playing a mission type that favors the other player's list and using an odd house rule. If they started playing proper missions with the actual rules he wouldn't be getting stomped.

BigShotBeale wrote:
but he's able to drop his scarabs reinforcements really close to them turn 1

Remember that reinforcements in matched play (and you should be using the matched play balance rules) can not arrive on turn 1. Putting them into reserve gives you flexibility but they will have to miss a turn off the table as the price of it.

I can't put too many units in front of my Havocs as we use the rule of not being able to shoot though dense units.

This is not an actual rule in 40k and you shouldn't be using it. It's a massive buff to units like Magnus if you can put some cheap cannon fodder out in front and deny any shooting. Play by the normal rules, don't house rule in extra buffs for your opponent when you're already losing every game.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Correct simply loosing is not equivalent to no fun.
However, speaking from lots of experience, no one enjoys a game where they set their models out, only to have the vast majority of them be removed before they even get a chance to activate.
Setting up an army only to have it be a shooting gallery or a pinata to be beat on and get to do near nothing in return is a very very VERY quick way to be burned out on the hobby

That's a pretty rare experience if you follow the current terrain guidelines.

This is what I'd take to face him with the new book ( as a super quick exercise ):

DP, Sword w/ Daemon weapon
1x5 CSM plus an upgrade or two
2x10 Cultists
2x6 Raptors
2 Spawn
2x1 Obliterators
Vindicator, Shield

Maybe squeeze in an MoE for the 6" HI and mortal wounds. Take marks and icons as you wish.

Deploy as far into the corners and out of sight as possible. For Magnus to commit to one corner or the other. Make him max his movement out. If CSM have a jump crystal ( I think they do? Haven't been through the whole book yet ) then use that to redeploy once Magnus comes towards them.

Use RND for one secondary. The Raptors are 6 mans so that you can't fail when they drop in. Use the cultists to alternate 'For the Dark Gods' and RND. Incursion missions are all 'Take and Hold' so you don't have to stretch beyond 2 objectives.

Then just focus on hurting everything except Magnus first and you should have a good chance of picking up a win. Magnus, 5 Scarabs, and 5 Rubrics is 750 points. The other player is unlikely to be very flexible or capable of sustaining secondaries in the face of losses.

Not just current ed in any edtion, and really in any hobby not just warhammer, its like playing a game with people who are league better then you, its not fun getting dicked stomped by some one who way out skills you, nor is it fun to be the one dishing it out.

Your friend is 100% in the right to bring Magnus. Magnus isn't even that GOOD. Anyone saying "TaLk BeFoRe GaMe" shouldn't be listened to. If there's actual balance issues, take it to GW.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Your friend is 100% in the right to bring Magnus. Magnus isn't even that GOOD. Anyone saying "TaLk BeFoRe GaMe" shouldn't be listened to. If there's actual balance issues, take it to GW.

Yep op thats what to do, dont talk with your mate, email gw theyll sort it for you any day now.

 morganfreeman wrote:

Voss wrote:


Maybe no one is 'getting shafted' by a five game hot streak? This is exactly why I said 'spin.'
Sure, losing several times in a row isn't fun, but that still isn't an obligation for the other player (whose side of the story we haven't heard and probably won't)

You should be respectful of other player's fun and generally try to avoid skew lists in casual (low points and non tournament) 40k games, just like you should avoid gouging someone's eyes in a sparring match. A game of 40k is a mutually agreed sparring match, not a street fight with someone you jumped behind the strip club.

It's very easy to create truly awful, and damn near unbeatable, lists in the 1k and below range. That doesn't mean you should do it. Wargames operate on a kind of gentlemen's agreement, and if you make it clear you're only there for yourself you'll quickly have no one to play with. Tournament play is a different matter obviously, as the entire point there is to do everything in your power to win.

Thanks for your Tedd Talk on wargames for babies, but I'm struggling to see the relevance.
The spin here is that's totally on the opponent to change a huge chunk of his list, indeed has an absolute obligation to do so, and the OP can just keep doing the same thing and shouldn't try even the slightest thing differently. That's my issue with the responses. Not gouging out people's eyes or clubbing baby seals.

What if… players talked before the game about what kind of game they wanted to play?

This concept is anathema around here but kids, I can tell you: it works.

Remember kids, bad balance is your fault and you should be ashamed of yourselves.

That ship sailed before the OP.

This started with a request for rules to make his opponent stop using Magnus. Talking was never in the cards.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Your friend is 100% in the right to bring Magnus. Magnus isn't even that GOOD. Anyone saying "TaLk BeFoRe GaMe" shouldn't be listened to. If there's actual balance issues, take it to GW.

But if you're having problems in your games you'll often get faster results by discussing things with those you're actually playing with than "taking it to GW".

Dai wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Your friend is 100% in the right to bring Magnus. Magnus isn't even that GOOD. Anyone saying "TaLk BeFoRe GaMe" shouldn't be listened to. If there's actual balance issues, take it to GW.

Yep op thats what to do, dont talk with your mate, email gw theyll sort it for you any day now.

Bad balance is for GW to fix, not the player. Telling the players to fix the game is a copout.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Dai wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Your friend is 100% in the right to bring Magnus. Magnus isn't even that GOOD. Anyone saying "TaLk BeFoRe GaMe" shouldn't be listened to. If there's actual balance issues, take it to GW.

Yep op thats what to do, dont talk with your mate, email gw theyll sort it for you any day now.

Bad balance is for GW to fix, not the player. Telling the players to fix the game is a copout.

Please, share your expert opinion on what players should do once they've sent their issue to GW & are waiting for GW to fix it. Bear in mind that the GW fix is at best months off & possibly never....
What should the players do?

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Correct simply loosing is not equivalent to no fun.
However, speaking from lots of experience, no one enjoys a game where they set their models out, only to have the vast majority of them be removed before they even get a chance to activate.
Setting up an army only to have it be a shooting gallery or a pinata to be beat on and get to do near nothing in return is a very very VERY quick way to be burned out on the hobby

In what way does Magnus do this that a number of points spent on other units wouldn't?

By being less binary requiring less specialised tools to deal with.

You know what was problem with knights 7e? It being skew that negates units unable to influence.


Sure magnus might be beatable. But just sitting at objectives hoping you win because you didn't bring enough at to kill isn't fun in long run. And in 1k it's hard to deal with every skew list. And op might not even have models to deal with it.

You think you can kill tyranid/ork inf horde and magnus with same units? In 1k games?

Of course op could buy models. Make skew list to auto win and...then is that game fun? You end up with rock paper scissor and games have no need to even be played.

ccs wrote:

Please, share your expert opinion on what players should do once they've sent their issue to GW & are waiting for GW to fix it. Bear in mind that the GW fix is at best months off & possibly never....
What should the players do?

Forge the narrative, obviously!

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Not just current ed in any edtion, and really in any hobby not just warhammer, its like playing a game with people who are league better then you, its not fun getting dicked stomped by some one who way out skills you, nor is it fun to be the one dishing it out.

Of course that theory fails in skew lists not requiring skill...

Nor does it require skill to kill magnus. Just cash, skew your self and result in boring matches you have no need to even pull models out.

That magnus player demonstrated skill level of kindergarden kid. Maybe he is good player but winning that way requires no skill so his skill level is unproven.

I would suggest in this case insisting on the match play rules being fully followed. You can't bring scarabs down on the first turn due to no reinforcement phase. Its an easy rule to miss but important.
Scarabs and magnus will be 3/4 of his list, so he will lack in troops and will struggle to cover multiple objectives.
It's worth checking using the points match played published list that his army is legal.
Magnus is a supreme and scarabs are elites. This will mean losing CP, which reduces the few he can use.
Also, deep striking at 9" means you can move your havocs to the side to draw line of sight on magnus. It's -1 to hit for moving heavy weapons, but it makes things more difficult (particular if you are careful with terrain).
Hope those ideas give you some food for thought.

ccs wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Dai wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Your friend is 100% in the right to bring Magnus. Magnus isn't even that GOOD. Anyone saying "TaLk BeFoRe GaMe" shouldn't be listened to. If there's actual balance issues, take it to GW.

Yep op thats what to do, dont talk with your mate, email gw theyll sort it for you any day now.

Bad balance is for GW to fix, not the player. Telling the players to fix the game is a copout.

Please, share your expert opinion on what players should do once they've sent their issue to GW & are waiting for GW to fix it. Bear in mind that the GW fix is at best months off & possibly never....
What should the players do?

They should do nothing. Don't give GW money for the garbage they spew, and be patient.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Dai wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Your friend is 100% in the right to bring Magnus. Magnus isn't even that GOOD. Anyone saying "TaLk BeFoRe GaMe" shouldn't be listened to. If there's actual balance issues, take it to GW.

Yep op thats what to do, dont talk with your mate, email gw theyll sort it for you any day now.

Bad balance is for GW to fix, not the player. Telling the players to fix the game is a copout.

Do you want to have fun with your leisure time?

Or spend that time being dogmatically 100% right and hating your games vs a guy who brings Magnus at sub-1K and steamrollers you on Planet Bowling Ball with made-up targeting rules?

What if a conversation was the difference between the two?

What if…

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Remember kids, bad balance is your fault and you should be ashamed of yourselves.

This isn't bad balance though. It's a learning curve. One that includes them using rules that don't exist.

Magnus isn't the problem.

And tbh Unit used to post about being annoyed his opponents didn’t wanna face his multiple superheavy list back when that was a little oppressive, so it’s odd to see them hewing a different path!

tneva82 wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Correct simply loosing is not equivalent to no fun.
However, speaking from lots of experience, no one enjoys a game where they set their models out, only to have the vast majority of them be removed before they even get a chance to activate.
Setting up an army only to have it be a shooting gallery or a pinata to be beat on and get to do near nothing in return is a very very VERY quick way to be burned out on the hobby

In what way does Magnus do this that a number of points spent on other units wouldn't?

By being less binary requiring less specialised tools to deal with.

You know what was problem with knights 7e? It being skew that negates units unable to influence.


Sure magnus might be beatable. But just sitting at objectives hoping you win because you didn't bring enough at to kill isn't fun in long run. And in 1k it's hard to deal with every skew list. And op might not even have models to deal with it.

You think you can kill tyranid/ork inf horde and magnus with same units? In 1k games?

Of course op could buy models. Make skew list to auto win and...then is that game fun? You end up with rock paper scissor and games have no need to even be played.

If the issue is winning playing objectives and not using houserules that favor Magnus should be enough to balance the games. From there, what people do or don't find rewarding in their games is completely subjective.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

ccs wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Dai wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Your friend is 100% in the right to bring Magnus. Magnus isn't even that GOOD. Anyone saying "TaLk BeFoRe GaMe" shouldn't be listened to. If there's actual balance issues, take it to GW.

Yep op thats what to do, dont talk with your mate, email gw theyll sort it for you any day now.

Bad balance is for GW to fix, not the player. Telling the players to fix the game is a copout.

Please, share your expert opinion on what players should do once they've sent their issue to GW & are waiting for GW to fix it. Bear in mind that the GW fix is at best months off & possibly never....
What should the players do?

They should do nothing. Don't give GW money for the garbage they spew, and be patient.

Ok, let's try this again. This time make the assumption (like the rest of us are doing) that both players want to play 40k in the here & now. How much $ is/is not being spent has nothing to do with it.
They've identified a problem,
They've forwarded it to GW,
GW has yet to answer....

How would you suggest they improve their game while they wait for GW?

ccs wrote:
Ok, let's try this again. This time make the assumption (like the rest of us are doing) that both players want to play 40k in the here & now. How much $ is/is not being spent has nothing to do with it.
They've identified a problem,
They've forwarded it to GW,
GW has yet to answer....

How would you suggest they improve their game while they wait for GW?

They can start by playing by the actual fething rules and not making the games balance worth with harebrained house rules that clearly favor one player over the other.