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Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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U.k

Saying the imperium is inclusive is like saying the nazis or stalinists were inclusive. You’re welcome as long as you conform and fit in. They just swapped Jews, disabled people and homosexuals for aliens and mutants. The whole point of the satire of 40k was that it was an authoritarian society that tolerated no difference at all.

Saying the game is inclusive is a bit of a stretch too. But has been discussed at length and I am not going to give hecaton another soap box.

The big issue with 40k and inclusivity is the community. While the majority might be very welcoming to all manner of people there is a very vocal minority that are not inclusive at all. The biggest problem is that the rest of the community excuse, ignore or even defend this minority.

GW is starting to lead on this by representing more people in its products but could do more. But at the end of the day it’s the community that will have to drive the change be more inclusive.

Not really intending to post much more in this topic because it screams “Bait” to me.
   
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Dudeface wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Sim-Life wrote:We know the general Imperium doesn't really care much about abhumans being different because otherwise you wouldn't see Guardsmen sharing transports with ogryns or ratlings (you even said it was a Guard unit incorporating abhumans)


We know the Imperium does care quite a bit about abhumans being different because Ogryns and Ratlings are specifically considered 'sanctioned' abhumans. Unsanctioned mutants are subject to either extermination or being rounded up and deployed as cannon fodder. The Imperium has some pretty hardline propaganda about physical corruption reflecting spiritual corruption. Deviation from the 'pure' human baseline is seen with suspicion at best and persecution at worst.

And I mean, it's not like those abhumans are considered equals. They don't get to rise in the ranks of Imperial hierarchy; they're essentially treated as disposable troops.


There's a great scene in one of the war of the beast books where a black templar comes across a human in a cell with a group of "longshanks" which are low gravity adapted abhumans. The templar just casually guns them down rather than rescue them from the orks because they're considered not worth saving.
The Black Templar would gun down the Navigators that fly their ships if they weren't needed. They're on the fully radical side when it comes to hating everything. The Red Scorpions are pretty on par as well when it comes to hating Abhumans.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/07/01 16:03:09


 
   
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Sentient Void

The Imperium is the equivalent of an internally inclusive white supremacists organization like the Nazi's.

Paradigm for a happy relationship with Games Workshop: Burn the books and take the models to a different game. 
   
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Annandale, VA

Sim-Life wrote:The thing you need to remember about 40k is presence of physical deformities in 40k is not the same as it is in our society and so shouldn't be viewed the same way. There is literal magical space energy constantly seeking to subvert and corrupt society in 40k which manifests via physical deformities. Despite GWs insistence Chaos is not just big spiky marines laughing maniacally and announcing themselves with big pink explosions and heavy metal. It's a creeping and insidious force that if left unchecked can result in disaster. You need to seperate yourself from the idea that 40k society is the same as ours but in 40,000 years.


Yes, with the 40K Imperium being a tongue-in-cheek satire of fascism, tolerance frequently results in being conquered by aliens / possessed by demons / forced into slavery / et cetera, and to the Imperials this is perfect justification for intolerance. That said, it's in part a problem of their own making- it's no secret that the reason many alien races hate the Imperium is specifically because the Imperials are genocidal, Chaos is only as powerful as it is because it's fed by the emotions of the Imperium, and cults easily take root because life sucks for most people. So, bit of column A, bit of column B.

But the fact that those threats are real in-universe doesn't mean the Imperium is actually a very tolerant society, it means their intolerance is justified by authorial contrivance. More to the point, none of this supports the idea that the Imperium 'doesn't really care much about abhumans being different'; at best you're justifying why the Imperium cares a lot about abhumans being different.

In any case, speaking out-of-universe, 40K is chock-full of thematic ties to the real world- it's not reasonable to ask the reader to ignore all parallels and take it at face value. I would hope that someone who looks at the goose-stepping space-authoritarians and says 'actually their genocidal policies are good because foreign cultures really are dangerous and it's necessary to preserve the purity of the Aryan human race' would have at least enough self-awareness to recognize the implications, rather than pretend that this fictional far-future society has no relevance whatsoever to our own.

   
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 Unusual Suspect wrote:
That's... not exactly true. I'm not sure how much evidence there is in total, but Wrath of Iron features a Librarian's point of view regarding cybernetic enhancements, and what it does to someone's soul.


It's not really part of the main canon. It's one author pulling in the ableist trope about how assistance devices or artificial limbs are "unnatural" and running with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sim-Life wrote:

The thing you need to remember about 40k is presence of physical deformities in 40k is not the same as it is in our society and so shouldn't be viewed the same way. There is literal magical space energy constantly seeking to subvert and corrupt society in 40k which manifests via physical deformities. Despite GWs insistence Chaos is not just big spiky marines laughing maniacally and announcing themselves with big pink explosions and heavy metal. It's a creeping and insidious force that if left unchecked can result in disaster. You need to seperate yourself from the idea that 40k society is the same as ours but in 40,000 years.


The Imperium also kills babies who are exposed to environmental toxins during development and thus have physical deformities. Also, just having warp mutations doesn't make someone Chaos-aligned; that generally happens because the alternative, when the Imperium is around, is "die horribly at the hands of the Arbites/Sororitas/your own family."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Manchu wrote:
Me, either. The whole thing about losing connection the Force because of having prosthetics came from the EU and I don’t think that can be laid at Lucas’s feet. But that line from Obi-Wan: “He’s more machine than man now, twisted and evil.”


No, that definitely came from Lucas. I'll see if I can find the interview, but it was definitely from him originally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Andykp wrote:
Saying the imperium is inclusive is like saying the nazis or stalinists were inclusive. You’re welcome as long as you conform and fit in. They just swapped Jews, disabled people and homosexuals for aliens and mutants. The whole point of the satire of 40k was that it was an authoritarian society that tolerated no difference at all.


Yes, the Imperium isn't inclusive. But the setting is. The Imperium is routinely depicted as horribly bigoted (though not on this one issue). But the important thing is that the setting doesn't reinforce any bigotry along those lines, like it does for Star Wars and Shadowrun.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/07/01 17:24:42


 
   
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Andykp wrote:
Saying the imperium is inclusive is like saying the nazis or stalinists were inclusive. You’re welcome as long as you conform and fit in. They just swapped Jews, disabled people and homosexuals for aliens and mutants. The whole point of the satire of 40k was that it was an authoritarian society that tolerated no difference at all.


Founded on satire doesn't mean modern 40k is still the same, its not a satirical setting anymore no matter how far your imagination can stretch. Unless you actually think Jews and homosexuals are comparable to tyranids, Dark Eldar, necrons, orks, daemons etc. I don't think anything good will ever come of trying to be tolerant of a hive fleet or listening to the view point of a bloodthirster.


 
   
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Slaaneshi forces include some female/genderfluid marines as a blessing from Slaanesh. While space marines are members of the "NO GIRLS ALLOWED" club, custodes are never mentioned to be specifically male only and since they are grown/developed from infancy it is entirely possible they have some members that started as girls.
   
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 DominayTrix wrote:
Slaaneshi forces include some female/genderfluid marines as a blessing from Slaanesh. While space marines are members of the "NO GIRLS ALLOWED" club, custodes are never mentioned to be specifically male only and since they are grown/developed from infancy it is entirely possible they have some members that started as girls.


One of the BL library authors talked about how he got the directive "no female Custodes" from GW. I hear what you're saying though.
   
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Andykp wrote:


The big issue with 40k and inclusivity is the community. While the majority might be very welcoming to all manner of people there is a very vocal minority that are not inclusive at all. The biggest problem is that the rest of the community excuse, ignore or even defend this minority.

GW is starting to lead on this by representing more people in its products but could do more. But at the end of the day it’s the community that will have to drive the change be more inclusive.

Not really intending to post much more in this topic because it screams “Bait” to me.


Ehh. I disagree a little. As a woman in the hobby, yeah sometimes the guys can suck. But thats not the REAL issue. The models are horrifically expensive. The games are headache inducingly long (always have to bring Advil to tournaments), and the rules are getting more complicated and bloated as time moves on. I have zero problem getting any other woman at the store into 40k during 8th when things were simple and a leman russ cost $36 lol. I can't get anyone into 9th now. And its not like the community got worse, so I can't blame that.

Don't get me wrong. It's always good to clean up bad behavior. But this weird idea some people have that if you add female space marines or something, women are going to flock to the hobby is just some made up fantasy. Fix the game and the prices, then people will join.
   
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^Just because I have the image handy in my gallery already.


But to the other part. Yeah sometimes the crowd can suck. I've seen that, and many, many years ago I was probably a member of the 'problem group', errors of youth and all.

But gosh, I've met some great people from all walks of life in the hobby, and in my experience the 'bad behavior crowd' is a tiny minority. The 40k (and gaming in general) player base is bigger than it ever was, and the solution to bad actors is hopefully just accessibility to a different group of actors. A different gaming club, or whatever.

Honestly it's kinda like a work environment. Some work environments are awful. But sometimes you also don't know that it can be better until you actually experience a better work environment.

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 Tokhuah wrote:
The Imperium is the equivalent of an internally inclusive white supremacists organization like the Nazi's.

But nazis were very externaly racialy inclusive, there were tatars, chechens,, ukrainians, turks, different types of nords, french, spanishs, people from the low countries asians like the Japanese and the Chinese till 1941. The imperium is nothing like that. It only mildly accepts the exists abhumans, and only if they are useful to the empire. If an adeptus branch deems them not useful they get burched.

Yes, the Imperium isn't inclusive. But the setting is. The Imperium is routinely depicted as horribly bigoted (though not on this one issue). But the important thing is that the setting doesn't reinforce any bigotry along those lines, like it does for Star Wars and Shadowrun.

the imperium is super inclusive. it doesn't care what or who you are, as long as you are human and work for the imperium. No goverment like that ever existed on earth.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Karol wrote:
 Tokhuah wrote:
The Imperium is the equivalent of an internally inclusive white supremacists organization like the Nazi's.

But nazis were very externaly racialy inclusive, there were tatars, chechens,, ukrainians, turks, different types of nords, french, spanishs, people from the low countries asians like the Japanese and the Chinese till 1941. The imperium is nothing like that. It only mildly accepts the exists abhumans, and only if they are useful to the empire. If an adeptus branch deems them not useful they get burched.

Yes, the Imperium isn't inclusive. But the setting is. The Imperium is routinely depicted as horribly bigoted (though not on this one issue). But the important thing is that the setting doesn't reinforce any bigotry along those lines, like it does for Star Wars and Shadowrun.

the imperium is super inclusive. it doesn't care what or who you are, as long as you are human and work for the imperium. No goverment like that ever existed on earth.


Is just me or does one point not follow from the other?

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Karol wrote:
 Tokhuah wrote:
The Imperium is the equivalent of an internally inclusive white supremacists organization like the Nazi's.

But nazis were very externaly racialy inclusive, there were tatars, chechens,, ukrainians, turks, different types of nords, french, spanishs, people from the low countries asians like the Japanese and the Chinese till 1941. The imperium is nothing like that. It only mildly accepts the exists abhumans, and only if they are useful to the empire. If an adeptus branch deems them not useful they get burched.

Karol, do you genuinely believe that the various non-Germans in the Third Reich weren't "mildly accepts...and only if they are useful to the empire"? Because if so, you might want to find a better history teacher.
Yes, the Imperium isn't inclusive. But the setting is. The Imperium is routinely depicted as horribly bigoted (though not on this one issue). But the important thing is that the setting doesn't reinforce any bigotry along those lines, like it does for Star Wars and Shadowrun.

the imperium is super inclusive. it doesn't care what or who you are, as long as you are human and work for the imperium.

Individual worlds of the Imperium may differ, but in general the Imperium only does not care who you are (and then only to a certain extent). It very much cares what you are - psyker, mutant, xenos-lover, inconveniently curious, unwilling to blindly follow directions...any of these things are far more than enough for a death sentence, depending on where/when you find yourself.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/01 19:19:56


 
   
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Why? One claim was that nazis were non inclusive, which is a not true. The other was that the imperium was not inclusive and it is litteraly all including as far as all humans goes.

The imperium to be like nazis would have to include xeno races as part of its structure. Which it does not do. On top of that nazis considered some of their enemies as kind of a equal to them. The imperium treats absolutly no non human race as equal to humans.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Karol wrote:
But nazis were very externaly racialy inclusive, there were tatars, chechens,, ukrainians, turks, different types of nords, french, spanishs, people from the low countries asians like the Japanese and the Chinese till 1941. The imperium is nothing like that. It only mildly accepts the exists abhumans, and only if they are useful to the empire. If an adeptus branch deems them not useful they get burched.

The Nazis using a boat load of foreign soldiers wasn't because they were looking to have one big happy family Karol. The Nazis used them because they were desperate. Turns out invading the world with the manpower of exactly one country doesn't actually work, so they got a bunch of local fascists to join up, especially in the SS. The ideology still considered them impure. Just because the Nazis didn't genocide everyone they met, does not mean they were accepting of them.
   
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Karol, do you genuinely believe that the various non-Germans in the Third Reich weren't "mildly accepts...and only if they are useful to the empire"? Because if so, you might want to find a better history teacher.

Ukrainians were german allies since the second silesian war. Chechens, Turks and asians were fully accepted. There were other slavic nations or balkan or souther europe ones, like the hungarians, who were treated equal by the Reich law. There weren't just mildly accepted, they were fully accepted. A german men or woman could marry a Hungarian, and there were no law problems with it. On the other side if the same person would marry someone from the slavic territories who was not a volks or reich deustch, they could end up in prison or even in the camps. Depending on how the local goverment saw it and how close to the end of the war it was.

Individual worlds of the Imperium may differ, but in general the Imperium only does not care who you are (and then only to a certain extent). It very much cares what you are - psyker, mutant, xenos-lover, inconveniently curious, unwilling to blindly follow directions...any of these things are far more than enough for a death sentence, depending on where/when you find yourself.

Psykers are sanctioned, only unsanctioned ones suffer persecution, because it is illegal to be one or harbour one. I am not even going to comment on the xeno lover, but considering xeno nation are pro activly trying to destroy the humanity. siding with them would be like being polish or jewish and collaborating with the german occupation forces. Curiosity in the w40k setting kills you. You see demons, you get warp tainted. The more knowladge about forbidden things you have the higher chance of being corrupted. And this goes even true, for trained profesionals who know about the danger . Why does a hive workers need to know the deep secrets of the warp anyway? how does it help him work. he is suppose to work and help the war effort the empire is struggling under. And yeah, if the avarge citizent doesn't know what he is dealing with, then given them freedom is stupid. It would be like letting people decide in the matters of foreign policy, war, health etc without any knowladge in any of those.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Karol wrote:

the imperium is super inclusive. it doesn't care what or who you are, as long as you are human and work for the imperium. No goverment like that ever existed on earth.


Perhaps Cyrus the Great's empire?
   
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 Sim-Life wrote:
Andykp wrote:
Saying the imperium is inclusive is like saying the nazis or stalinists were inclusive. You’re welcome as long as you conform and fit in. They just swapped Jews, disabled people and homosexuals for aliens and mutants. The whole point of the satire of 40k was that it was an authoritarian society that tolerated no difference at all.


Founded on satire doesn't mean modern 40k is still the same, its not a satirical setting anymore no matter how far your imagination can stretch. Unless you actually think Jews and homosexuals are comparable to tyranids, Dark Eldar, necrons, orks, daemons etc. I don't think anything good will ever come of trying to be tolerant of a hive fleet or listening to the view point of a bloodthirster.


Thank you for this. Not sure I could’ve summed it up without delving into Politics.

Within the universe, the Witch, Alien and Mutant are threats. The Witch can lead to daemonic invasion. The mutant? The same, as just because you’ve a massive arm and four arses instead of a mouth, it doesn’t mean you’re not also a psyker. The Alien? Oh they’d be totally peaceful if it wasn’t for the Imperium’s biligerence…

And one could argue that if we look at human history, the surest way to get folk on your side is to set them against A.N.Other. The bigger the gathering, the more specific you need to be. It’s not nice. It’s not pleasant. I don’t even know and couldn’t say if it’s necessarily an intrinsic part of Human Nature, or just the easiest and most politically expedient way of getting enough folk moving in the direction you want them to.

With 40K, we also need to keep in mind the sheer scale of things. 40K has planetary systems where we have Nations. And kind of like the U.K. (look if I’m going to risk insulting a country it’s going to be my own, OK?) whilst the constituent parts of said Nation will of course have their own rivalries, they’re far more likely to gang up should another Nation start any trouble.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

H.B.M.C, 27 July 2022. Suddenly the Chaos Codex doesn't seem so bad.

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 Gert wrote:

The Nazis using a boat load of foreign soldiers wasn't because they were looking to have one big happy family Karol. The Nazis used them because they were desperate. Turns out invading the world with the manpower of exactly one country doesn't actually work, so they got a bunch of local fascists to join up, especially in the SS. The ideology still considered them impure. Just because the Nazis didn't genocide everyone they met, does not mean they were accepting of them.

The cooperate with Italian Fasists since the 30s, with the spanish since the end of 20s. with the Chinese since 1926 and with Ukrainians since the 2ed silesian war which happened between 1774-1775, With the tatar, turkish and chechens since WWI. Non of them happened because Germany was in a tough spot, as most of them happned and started before WWII started. That did happen after Stalingrad fell, and was mostly not efficient to produce substential number of recruits.
I am not sure what joing the SS has to do with anything. You would be unable to join it directly even if you were german. All it took was having too low hight.
Also the german ideolgy only considered Jews etc "unpure" , even slavs were treated like that and their elimination was based on the states need. Poles , whose territory was suppose to be taken, were to be eliminated. Slovaks who were ally were not. What was considered impure was mixing of races. The imperium of man has nothing like. There are no orks or eldar who are considered okey as long as their live in their part of the galaxy.

And as the accepting goes, look at the marrige laws or who could join BDM or HJ, it shows what germans thought about being acceptable or not. And by the way it has nothing to do with nazis being nice or not, they were not nice. What they were was logical and keeping to the rules they set up. They were willing to set my part of the world on fire to follow that logic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The_Real_Chris 805796 11392364 wrote:Perhaps Cyrus the Great's empire?

For some nation groups, like the jews yes. But he was brutal, by contemporary standards, to other nations. For example Lydians even when they submited to him, he tried to wipe them out. Persian historians of course claim that persian armies and Cyrus were welcomed with bread and salt. But the burned cities seem to tell a different story. He really didn't like the babilonians either , he litteraly destroyed their society, by promoting lower masses against the citizents, priests and nobility.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/01 19:53:40


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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 DominayTrix wrote:
Slaaneshi forces include some female/genderfluid marines as a blessing from Slaanesh. While space marines are members of the "NO GIRLS ALLOWED" club, custodes are never mentioned to be specifically male only and since they are grown/developed from infancy it is entirely possible they have some members that started as girls.


Whilst I would like it to be otherwise, GW has stated this in the Custodes Codex.

"It is known that all Custodians begin their lives as the infant sons of the noble houses of Terra."

You could claim this is an in-universe belief and wrong, but it's not in a story section but the 'narrator/background' stuff.

Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
 
   
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Karol wrote:

Karol, do you genuinely believe that the various non-Germans in the Third Reich weren't "mildly accepts...and only if they are useful to the empire"? Because if so, you might want to find a better history teacher.

Ukrainians were german allies since the second silesian war. Chechens, Turks and asians were fully accepted. There were other slavic nations or balkan or souther europe ones, like the hungarians, who were treated equal by the Reich law. There weren't just mildly accepted, they were fully accepted. A german men or woman could marry a Hungarian, and there were no law problems with it. On the other side if the same person would marry someone from the slavic territories who was not a volks or reich deustch, they could end up in prison or even in the camps. Depending on how the local goverment saw it and how close to the end of the war it was.


-Ukrainians in the service of the Reich were largely from Galicia, a region latterly controlled by the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Himmler had to be talked into allowing the 14th Division's formation by Otto Wächter, and only Galicians were allowed into the Division as they were considered "Aryan". The term "Ukraine" was not allowed to be used, as that was politically problematic.
-Chechen revolts were largely autonomous, due to the long history of oppression by Russians.
-As late as '43, the question of Hungarian intermarriage was disputed.

Cruel men make cruel warriors make cruel lords. We need to be better.

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‘Member the thread title says no politics?

Oooooh, I ‘member.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

H.B.M.C, 27 July 2022. Suddenly the Chaos Codex doesn't seem so bad.

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It is not politics it is history.

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locarno24 wrote:
 DominayTrix wrote:
Slaaneshi forces include some female/genderfluid marines as a blessing from Slaanesh. While space marines are members of the "NO GIRLS ALLOWED" club, custodes are never mentioned to be specifically male only and since they are grown/developed from infancy it is entirely possible they have some members that started as girls.


Whilst I would like it to be otherwise, GW has stated this in the Custodes Codex.

"It is known that all Custodians begin their lives as the infant sons of the noble houses of Terra."

You could claim this is an in-universe belief and wrong, but it's not in a story section but the 'narrator/background' stuff.
That's a big missed opportunity. :/

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Karol wrote:
The cooperate with Italian Fasists since the 30s, with the spanish since the end of 20s. with the Chinese since 1926 and with Ukrainians since the 2ed silesian war which happened between 1774-1775, With the tatar, turkish and chechens since WWI. Non of them happened because Germany was in a tough spot, as most of them happned and started before WWII started. That did happen after Stalingrad fell, and was mostly not efficient to produce substential number of recruits.

Considering Nazi Germany only came about in 1933, it's pretty wild they somehow managed to cooperate with the Spanish and Chinese in the 1920s and the Ukrainians in the 1700s.
German cooperation and Nazi cooperation are not the same things. Weimar Germany sent advisors to the Chinese Republic in 1926, a state of affairs that continued with the German Reich until 1937 when the Japanese invaded China. The Nazis kept the deal going because they needed Chinese raw material for the planned conquest of Europe and because China was in a position to help defeat the USSR. All of this was thrown out in favour of Japan. At no point did the Nazi ideology change to say "Yeah the Chinese are actually equal to Aryans now".
And as for the various ethnic groups that resided in Russia during both the reign of the Tsar and the Soviets, as they saying goes "The enemy of my enemy, is useful as cannon fodder while out troops get their objectives".


I am not sure what joing the SS has to do with anything. You would be unable to join it directly even if you were german. All it took was having too low hight.
Also the german ideolgy only considered Jews etc "unpure" , even slavs were treated like that and their elimination was based on the states need. Poles , whose territory was suppose to be taken, were to be eliminated. Slovaks who were ally were not. What was considered impure was mixing of races. The imperium of man has nothing like. There are no orks or eldar who are considered okey as long as their live in their part of the galaxy.

The first batch of SS did fit the ideological requirements but even before WW2 began Himmler had to relax the regulations on who could join and by 1940, there were many foreign fighters in its ranks. Hitler expressely said he didn't want non-Aryans or even non-Germans in the SS but once again, you can't win a war with insanely strict recruiting measures and the manpower of one nation. These fighters were still considered racially inferior and yet they were recruited into the most hardcore Nazi group.
And just a heads up so you don't look really stupid in the future, the entire basis of Nazi ideology was that only Aryans were pure. Everyone else, even Germans, were inferior to the Aryans and they were all expected to be ruled by the "master race".

And as the accepting goes, look at the marrige laws or who could join BDM or HJ, it shows what germans thought about being acceptable or not. And by the way it has nothing to do with nazis being nice or not, they were not nice. What they were was logical and keeping to the rules they set up. They were willing to set my part of the world on fire to follow that logic.

Letting people join youth groups so they could be indoctrinated didn't mean those people weren't considered inferior by the Nazis. Only Aryans were "pure" in their eyes and every single other race was inferior.
As for the "rules" the Nazis followed, they got thrown out the window as soon as the war started because once again you can't invade the world with the manpower of one nation.
You don't get to pull the "My country got invaded by the Nazis" card if you don't actually know what you're on about.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 RaptorusRex wrote:
-Ukrainians in the service of the Reich were largely from Galicia, a region latterly controlled by the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Himmler had to be talked into allowing the 14th Division's formation by Otto Wächter, and only Galicians were allowed into the Division as they were considered "Aryan". The term "Ukraine" was not allowed to be used, as that was politically problematic.

Ukrainian nationalists started working with germans/prussians at the time, against the Austrian, and later Austro-Hungerian goverment since 1774. That is way before the idea of national socialism existed in any part Germany. And the being unable to use the term ukrainian term is just plain wrong. When bishop Szeptycki, laying bed ridden and close to death was sending grecatholic priests to Waffen SS units he was litteraly talking about Ukraine and Ukrainian nationality.

-Chechen revolts were largely autonomous, due to the long history of oppression by Russians.

And? Poles and jews had the same history of oppresion by the Russians. So it hardly was trait specific to being accepted by the nationalists.


-As late as '43, the question of Hungarian intermarriage was disputed.

Which means it was not a problem for 10 years. And it was only considered a problem, because some people were using it to avoid military service or leave europe.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:
^Just because I have the image handy in my gallery already.


But to the other part. Yeah sometimes the crowd can suck. I've seen that, and many, many years ago I was probably a member of the 'problem group', errors of youth and all.

But gosh, I've met some great people from all walks of life in the hobby, and in my experience the 'bad behavior crowd' is a tiny minority. The 40k (and gaming in general) player base is bigger than it ever was, and the solution to bad actors is hopefully just accessibility to a different group of actors. A different gaming club, or whatever.

Honestly it's kinda like a work environment. Some work environments are awful. But sometimes you also don't know that it can be better until you actually experience a better work environment.


Lol!!!! Who the heck would buy that, poor soul if they didn't know better...

But in my experience and travels it really depends on the store more then anything. Some stores are filled with just... gross. Some are a mix. Some are nothing but great people. Still waiting to find that fabled nazi everyone keeps saying exists though. So far the worst I get is just some weirdo telling me how my army plays, completely unaware he's about to be tabled. That or people who get hilariously tilted or try and cheat. Grr the cheaters... those are the ones we should really talk about.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Considering Nazi Germany only came about in 1933, it's pretty wild they somehow managed to cooperate with the Spanish and Chinese in the 1920s and the Ukrainians in the 1700s.

Spanish. have you heard about the Condor legion. The German-Chinese cooperation was a thing from 1926 to 1943, till the goverment left mainliand China.
And Ukrainians worked with the Prussians, then Germans against Austrians, Austro Hungarians, Russians for 300+ years. Even the ribbentrop molotov packt had an addum about what the Abwehra controled ukrainian groups are suppose to do, or rather what they are suppose not to do aka not start acting in territories that were suppose to be soviets. But they kind of a didn't listen.

At no point did the Nazi ideology change to say "Yeah the Chinese are actually equal to Aryans now".

Hitler claimed that the civilisation of China is better and higher, then that germans created, specialy as they were older then those of germans.

And as for the various ethnic groups that resided in Russia during both the reign of the Tsar and the Soviets, as they saying goes "The enemy of my enemy, is useful as cannon fodder while out troops get their objectives".

Odd because in 1916 the German occupation army as the first thing it did, was to keep up Tsarist ban on polish schools, use of polish language etc. And Poles in Podlasie were no friends of Russians. Specialy post 1912 and the creation of Kholm Guberny.

The first batch of SS did fit the ideological requirements but even before WW2 began Himmler had to relax the regulations on who could join and by 1940, there were many foreign fighters in its ranks. Hitler expressely said he didn't want non-Aryans or even non-Germans in the SS but once again, you can't win a war with insanely strict recruiting measures and the manpower of one nation. These fighters were still considered racially inferior and yet they were recruited into the most hardcore Nazi group.
And just a heads up so you don't look really stupid in the future, the entire basis of Nazi ideology was that only Aryans were pure. Everyone else, even Germans, were inferior to the Aryans and they were all expected to be ruled by the "master race".

Okey, while I could disagree with some of this. what does it have to do with how the imperial societies and laws work? Because an ork can bend in to a pretzel and he will never be able to be part of the human imperial society. the whole aryan thing was too esoteric to considered serious.


Letting people join youth groups so they could be indoctrinated didn't mean those people weren't considered inferior by the Nazis. Only Aryans were "pure" in their eyes and every single other race was inferior.

Joing HJ and BDM was obligatory, but if the racial element was so crucial . The state wouldn't allow children from Kamerun or China to join the organisations.

You don't get to pull the "My country got invaded by the Nazis" card if you don't actually know what you're on about.

Considering you are wrong most of the time, I think I can.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
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Kya_Vess wrote:
. . . . So far the worst I get is just some weirdo telling me how my army plays, completely unaware he's about to be tabled. That or people who get hilariously tilted or try and cheat. Grr the cheaters... those are the ones we should really talk about.

Hehe, oh come now. . . Those are like some of my favorite experiences

I haven't seen a really tilted player in a while, but I can recall getting someone to start throwing dice.

I still see "soft cheating" fairly often, unfortunately. "Long moves" seem shockingly common.


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Been Around the Block




 Insectum7 wrote:
Kya_Vess wrote:
. . . . So far the worst I get is just some weirdo telling me how my army plays, completely unaware he's about to be tabled. That or people who get hilariously tilted or try and cheat. Grr the cheaters... those are the ones we should really talk about.

Hehe, oh come now. . . Those are like some of my favorite experiences

I haven't seen a really tilted player in a while, but I can recall getting someone to start throwing dice.

I still see "soft cheating" fairly often, unfortunately. "Long moves" seem shockingly common.



The one thing I've noticed is that I get a lot worse then some of the other players is people assume they can cheat against me because I wont know any better. There's been a few tournaments were it was so blatant even the people next to these games were correcting my opponent. This was a huge issue in Magic too. Basically my options are getting cheated or trying to be a rules lawyer and being seen as, "that b1#$#" in the store. It's obnoxious.
   
 
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