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Powerful Ushbati





United States

 AnomanderRake wrote:
To the original question: I'm not playing as much Legion right now because I really want to see something like the X-Wing 2.5 points system come in to shake up the balance between spending points on dudes and spending points on upgrades. I feel like the FFG systems have taken boys-before-toys to an extreme in general and made spamming cheap units just better than taking the big cool fancy things, and I really like how AMG tried to do something about that with X-Wing, and I'm hoping to see them do that to Legion so the list-building doesn't feel so constrained.


So far I can't say my group has had too much trouble with that. I don't play competitive tier so I can't say much about it, but my guess is it's the same old wargame issue of fun vs. winning. I'm about 12 games into legion now and I can say with certainty, losing in Legion is a lot more fun than losing in Warhammer.
   
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Well, I don't play competitively, so balance on that level isn't something I could talk about in any meaningful way. But casually, my Rebels don't leave home without their happy pills.

Postponing wounds and deaths is an upgrade I happily pay for, and that worked pretty well for me.

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I find the concessions you have to make for a winning list far less severe in the game now than they were when the game first launched. That said, I do find the points system overly granular and not a lot of fun to work with. It's not terrible by any means, but enough that I often feel like if I want to swap in a new release or even change characters in some way I have to start the whole list over because of the way points work out and I despise the bidding rule. None of it is a dealbreaker and if you're dedicated to just this game its a lot to chew on, but as someone who just wants to jump in casually now and then, it often feels like there's more pregame prep than actual table time.
   
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Chicago

As to the original question, I strongly considered Legion. I'm an indie gamer mostly but Runewars (got a free core at Adepticon, traded armies and got hooked) had actually warmed me up a bit to the use of special dice and tokens. Despite myself, I really enjoyed it and I actually didn't feel too burned when it died because I had paid bargain prices overall and always expected it to die and for the 28mm figs to find a home in KoW. So, as a SW fan with a good sized collection of Imperial Assault, I was ready to take the Legion plunge and go in hook line and sinker.

Until I saw the scale. Just too big to look good next to the rest of my Sci-fi figures, especially the Star Wars CMG and Imperial Assault figures I already have. I was pretty disappointed.

It didn't have to be this way. FFG games are so dependent on proprietary bases, tokens, cards, etc, it wasn't like they were going to lose money if someone decided to incorporate a few Imperial Assault or CMG figures, to say nothing of the great options for bringing Legion into IA games. It could have been a fantastic crossover. but instead they gave a big "screw-you" to the folks who had spent hundreds on Imperial Assault and so, turnabout being fair play, I say "right back atcha buddy".

Almost 3 decades in, I've learned to play the long game in this hobby. Most wargames (and nearly all FFG wargames) die, and when they do I want the figures to be compatible with my collection and with whatever ruleset I chose to play with. Legion just doesn't play well with others and if figures in a proprietary scale are the norm now, I don't see me buying any of these types of games again. Further, as the organizer of a club that generally feels the same way I have no need to chase Legion just to get a wargaming fix that isn't 40k.


PS As for Marvel Crisis Protocol, a buddy of mine went in pretty big and the figs are fantastic, but the even-bigger scale and price-per-fig killed it any interest I might have had also.

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Funny enough, I find Legion figures some of the smallest of the games I get to the table regularly these days.
   
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 LunarSol wrote:
Funny enough, I find Legion figures some of the smallest of the games I get to the table regularly these days.


If you're playing the latest coolness I have no doubt that's true. What other games are you playing with big figs?

I might be fooling myself, but I think 28-30mm still has alot of life in it especially with indie and legacy games. I mean, despite Necromunda, even GW is still mostly sticking with it.

As a postscript regarding FFG/Asmodee/Atomic: It's been on my shelf for year but I played Battlelore 2nd Edition for just the second time tonight and dang is it a good game. Really delivers the tabletop wargame experience in a boardgame which as it was the pinacle of C&C evolution is no surprise. I'll probably never buy one of their tabletop wargames again, but Battlelore has a place on my game shelf forever.

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I have all the 1st edition stuff!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Sorry referring to Battelore)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(I did play the iOS second edition game)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/09/27 14:00:03


 
   
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 Eilif wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
Funny enough, I find Legion figures some of the smallest of the games I get to the table regularly these days.


If you're playing the latest coolness I have no doubt that's true. What other games are you playing with big figs?


Warmachine, MCP, Malifaux, Infinity, Bushido, Legion have been the top dogs lately along with the GW stuff (40k, Sigmar, Blood Bowl)
   
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Good games, but unless their scales increased, all those are smaller than Legion except MCP and possibly Malifaux.

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Hmm.... direct comparison I guess you're right. Not sure what it is about the Legion figures but they feel very small for some reason.
   
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I really like the scale of the game. I was able to get a nice case right off amazon and I didn't have to fiddle with BattleFoam or Citadel cases. That was nice.

The models are a lot lighter to carry around than other games I've played in the past too.
   
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 LunarSol wrote:
Hmm.... direct comparison I guess you're right. Not sure what it is about the Legion figures but they feel very small for some reason.

Entirely understandable.

It's an optical illusion because the figures come from a Galaxy far far away.

Figures from games based in our galaxy naturally seem larger.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/27 22:34:36


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This reason will sound super petty..... but I honestly do not trust myself to be able to paint up Han Solo to look like Han Solo, or Bobba Fett to look like Bobba Fett, or Vadar to look like Vadar.

I do not trust myself to make a stormtrooper or clone look reasonably like the source materials and that would disappoint me during every game I player.

Super petty, and a challenge for all licensed games and even many historical games for me.

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 LunarSol wrote:
Hmm.... direct comparison I guess you're right. Not sure what it is about the Legion figures but they feel very small for some reason.


As far as my perception goes, Legion models aren't all that large when it comes down to it. They fit pretty well in the 35mm scale bracket. Next to GW models that have scale crept up to 32mm from 28mm, they look just that little bit taller. Just as for instance 35mm Wild West Exodus models do. But at the end of the day, a human being a head taller than another human isn't that much of a departure.

They have deceptively tall bases, too. I frequently get the impression that Legion models tower over other models I have on my desk at the same time, but if I compare one that isn't glued to a base yet, much of that is just revealed to be an illusion.

Personally I like the size and proportions of Legion models better than any other range. They hit that sweet spot for me of proportions erring on the realistic side and being just the right size, still small and not a chore to paint as larger models can be, but large enough for my aging eyes to make out all the details at arm's length. I don't get the latter from smaller models, and it's something I can really appreciate.

I will say Eilif's earlier point about Legion using its own scale (or going up into the 35mm range, if you prefer) even though it didn't have to resonates with me. I'd prefer to see more compatibility between manufacturers and model ranges, and some consideration for consistency with older ranges and collections of the same franchise, but as unfortunate as it is, that's not a reasonable expectation for a number of reasons. Additionally, as explained this is my sweet spot, so I'm happy with Legion's models and would prefer other things to line up with them. That makes the whole thing a bit ambivalent to me.

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Prepping for LGT currently but thought I would throw up a size comparison pic, here we have a new Pyke, a GW Deathguard and a PVC Bossk.

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 ingtaer wrote:
Prepping for LGT currently but thought I would throw up a size comparison pic, here we have a new Pyke, a GW Deathguard and a PVC Bossk.


So the smaller of the SW races in Legion is the same height as among the tallest of the SW races in 28mm?

I've got a buddy bringing a trooper from Legion over at the next club meeting and when I do my review of WGA Eisenkern, I'll compare scale with troopers from Legion, WOTC SW:CMG, Imperial Assault, GW Cadian, and I might even throw in a vintage WEG figure for kicks if I can find the one naval trooper I kept. If my statements about heights turn out to be incorrect I'll eat the appropriate Crow.

 Geifer wrote:
[
As far as my perception goes, Legion models aren't all that large when it comes down to it. They fit pretty well in the 35mm scale bracket. Next to GW models that have scale crept up to 32mm from 28mm, they look just that little bit taller. Just as for instance 35mm Wild West Exodus models do.
.


As for 35mm and WWExodus, I found them completely incompatible with my collection that ranges mostly between 28 and 30mm. If your collection is mostly recent GW in the 32mm range, you may feel differently. I had a huge collection of WWExodus come through and opening a couple boxes I quickly saw that they were virtually incompatible and quickly sold them on.

28 to 30mm is average human differentiation. 28 to 32mm is about a head height difference, but there's room for a few 32mm figs and I have a few. 35mm in a 28mm-30mm collection and the question becomes "how many Andre the Giants do you want on your table?"

There was one small light at the end of the tunnel I thought I saw for scale creep a few years back when some companies started going 35mm and then Legion followed suit. My thought was that if scale creep could stabilize at 33-35mm'ish, then you've arrived at 1:48, which is a recognized scale for models, trains (O-Guage) lots of die-cast, structure kits, etc and could be a very good thing for hobbyists. Bandai's ATAT and Snowspeeder are both in that scale and are fantastic kits. I use a good bit of 1:48 with my 1/56 wargaming because the increasd bulk and height-with-base of 28mm figures makes them look quite appropriate together. However, then MCP came out with 40mm figs and I realized that the cash grab for incompatible-scale games never ends and that since the 28mm is still by far the scale with the most available figures I'd just stick with that.


 Geifer wrote:
[I will say Eilif's earlier point about Legion using its own scale (or going up into the 35mm range, if you prefer) even though it didn't have to resonates with me. I'd prefer to see more compatibility between manufacturers and model ranges, and some consideration for consistency with older ranges and collections of the same franchise, but as unfortunate as it is, that's not a reasonable expectation for a number of reasons. .

I appreciate the partial agreement, but as for "not a reasonable expecation for a number of reasons" if you've got some insider info please share it, because I've been listening and I've yet to hear a single good argument from FFG as to why they decided to make their Legion figs all a head taller. No one playing Imperial Assault (which I heard was still selling well and continues to sell today) was crying out for giant figures and even a modest increase to 30mm would have put them in line with expectations from most gaming fans.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/09/29 16:08:06


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I suppose I just don't expect customer friendly behavior form companies, and with my expectations so set, don't find it reasonable to expect of companies to make more than the slightest concessions to customer considerations when formulating their business plan. A bit cynical, I know, but it is what it is.

I'll throw out one point though. I wouldn't call it a good argument, but a logical one. Detail on PVC casts is comparatively soft. The smaller you go, the worse your models look. If FFG wanted to sell their game at least to a degree on the strength of their models, especially in an environment where the competition has such quality models as GW, scaling up their models to hold better detail and improve how they look makes sense.

Of course that is based on the decision to make PVC models in the first place, which is a stupid ass decision in itself. But that just takes me back to my expectations of how companies act.

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 Geifer wrote:

I'll throw out one point though. I wouldn't call it a good argument, but a logical one. Detail on PVC casts is comparatively soft. The smaller you go, the worse your models look. If FFG wanted to sell their game at least to a degree on the strength of their models, especially in an environment where the competition has such quality models as GW, scaling up their models to hold better detail and improve how they look makes sense.

Of course that is based on the decision to make PVC models in the first place, which is a stupid ass decision in itself. But that just takes me back to my expectations of how companies act.

I'm not totally sure I buy it (Imperial Assault figs are pretty darn good looking), but you have a good point the PVC factor is a consideration. I didn't realize that Legion models were PVC. That is disappointing. I kind of expected it with a Board Game like IA, and maybe even a proprietary game like Runewars. For a SW property I assumed they'd have gone hard plastic.
Interestingly -and partially in favor of your thesis- is that when I reviewed the Runewars figures (a good example of what is possible in 28mm PVC), one of the things I noted as a positive in my conclusion was that the miniatures appeared to be sculpted with PVC in mind. Simple, bold detail that won't get lost in the material the way that many originally-metal figures lost their finer detail in the first generation of Bones.
https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/2017/04/runewars-painting-the-daqan-lords-part-1-creative-assembly/

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Loads of Legion models are HIPS, if not the majority, all of the latter stuff from the wave after the CW initial release is (bar Dooku and Rex?). We did have a thread on it previously.

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 ingtaer wrote:
Loads of Legion models are HIPS, if not the majority, all of the latter stuff from the wave after the CW initial release is (bar Dooku and Rex?). We did have a thread on it previously.

Good to know. I had assumed everything was HIPS.

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For reference this is the thread I said about - https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/802981.page.

Everything released for the Shadow Collective is HIPS as well.

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It's correct that loads of models are hard plastic by now, and possibly even more than half at this point. The change to plastic is great and I certainly wish they had started out with it because there is a very unfortunate side effect to switching materials halfway through. PVC legacy isn't something you'll get around if you fancy Rebels or Empire. They only got plastic infantry very late in the game, and that's only a box each of special forces and a couple of side characters. It's a shame that two full factions have to deal with that, and I'm not just saying that because Imperials are my favorite, honest.

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 Geifer wrote:
I suppose I just don't expect customer friendly behavior form companies, and with my expectations so set, don't find it reasonable to expect of companies to make more than the slightest concessions to customer considerations when formulating their business plan. A bit cynical, I know, but it is what it is.

I'll throw out one point though. I wouldn't call it a good argument, but a logical one. Detail on PVC casts is comparatively soft. The smaller you go, the worse your models look. If FFG wanted to sell their game at least to a degree on the strength of their models, especially in an environment where the competition has such quality models as GW, scaling up their models to hold better detail and improve how they look makes sense.

Of course that is based on the decision to make PVC models in the first place, which is a stupid ass decision in itself. But that just takes me back to my expectations of how companies act.


What is the hate for the PVC models about? I have a ton of them and they're fine. I've had zero issues with them, they look nice on the field and they're a breeze to build compared to the mess that is GW modern sprue deisgn.
   
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Generally because the details are softer and you have to cut rather than scrape the mould lines off.

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It's also not a joy to convert as it doesn't cut very well.

Then there are the bent barrels that may or may not stay straight after you tried to fix them.

Also on the point of detail, particularly the basic Stormtroopers were cast in as few pieces as possible because PVC casting allowed for it, which doesn't just leave them with additional mold lines in places you might not expect, but ungainly smudged detail like on the lower part of the helmet.

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 Geifer wrote:
It's also not a joy to convert as it doesn't cut very well.

Then there are the bent barrels that may or may not stay straight after you tried to fix them.

Also on the point of detail, particularly the basic Stormtroopers were cast in as few pieces as possible because PVC casting allowed for it, which doesn't just leave them with additional mold lines in places you might not expect, but ungainly smudged detail like on the lower part of the helmet.


I understand. It seems like you might be more into it for the hobby aspect where as they're just game pieces to me. I will say the plastic kits are loads nice though, they're so much better than fiddling around with 40K kits, especially recent ones.
   
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Yeah, the main draw for me are the models, and the lore and setting after that. I like a good game, but I'm far more tolerant of mediocre rules than I am of mediocre models. It'll take some serious effort like what GW did with 8th ed 40k to put me off a game whose models I like.

Being Star Wars ground combat and a genuinely good ruleset, Legion hits all the right buttons with me, except a little in the area I would scrutinize the most. I try not to be too negative about the whole PVC deal (most of the time ), as the miniatures aren't horrible or anything. A good paint job still turns them into pretty display models and after a dodgy first batch of Imperials and Rebels, the sculptors embraced naturalistic poses that I like a lot. Like Death Troopers for instance that look pretty awesome in their believable soldier poses. But there's always room for improvement, and the material the models are cast in stands out to me the most in this regard. On the bright side, I'd much rather deal with PVC than metal, so there's that.

I'd agree that the simpler plastic sculpts of Legion have something going for them over modern GW plastic jigsaws. They're far less of a chore to assemble, yes. That's a good thing for people who want to put their new models on the table. But it's also better for conversions if you have discrete body parts instead of the left hand being attached to the right shin and half the head coming as part of the backpack and similar nonsense. I used to have a great time converting GW kits before they turned into the current mess. I'm hoping to have that again with Legion models, although I have yet to find the time to go conversion heavy. I'm still too busy with painting my stock models first. Conversions like the Shoretrooper Captain I just started working on are still a bit of a luxury at this time. Who knows, maybe there will even be more Rebel and Imperial plastic kits by the time I get around to it.

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Was a "thing" at local club for a while, and again when the prequal robot things came out

so I had a look, watched a few games and.. it just didn't appear to do anything for me, the cards, tokens etc are a negative for me I admit but not a terminal one. the models looked "ok" but there was nothing really dragging me in

it still gets played, have heard a few comments about how it plays, but a lot of salt from whoever lost a game so largely ignore it. Enjoyed Armada, X-Wing was ok but not amazing.

just it seemed to score a solid "meah", so stuck with other games, it just looked a bit average, a few trick mechanics to add flavour which is fine but nothing that stood out to say "if this wasn't star wars would people still think it was a great game?"
   
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leopard wrote:


just it seemed to score a solid "meah", so stuck with other games, it just looked a bit average, a few trick mechanics to add flavour which is fine but nothing that stood out to say "if this wasn't star wars would people still think it was a great game?"


Feel like that isn't completely fair, I don't think Legion is a great game just because of "Star Wars", but it is a great game given a chance to grow because of "Star Wars".

Tons of other generic or new IP tabletop games flounder and die because unlike Legion, somebody walking past won't be able to stop and immediately recognize Vader, speeder bikes, and an AT-ST.

If Legion was a generic ruleset, I would still play it over 40k, I just know I would have a harder time people getting to play the game because it isn't something immediately recognizable from pop culture, or a 40k Space Marine.
   
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 Togusa wrote:


What is the hate for the PVC models about? I have a ton of them and they're fine. I've had zero issues with them, they look nice on the field and they're a breeze to build compared to the mess that is GW modern sprue deisgn.


As you have prolly allready seen from other replys, two camps of humans at play here; gamers vs hobbyists.

I am a gamer, i dont care for complex models or painting, i hate to paint. The clouser the minis are to boardgame pieces, the happier i am. I love the pvc model line for the empire and the lack of details they have means they are fast to paint with rattlecans and washes. They can allso be dropped or mistreated whitout shattering in several parts. However, majority of tabletop gamers are hobbyists and for them they want compex kits and maximum detailed models as it gives them something to do when they dont game and the models are mutch more suited for high end paint jobs and clouse up photo shots.

It is a trend i see growing, avrage paint jobs or easy done paint jobs from low detail models are no longer generaly accepted or promoted and games that features models that cant easily achieve competition level paint jobs gets looked down on.

If one can see beyond GW, it do not take mutch to see that Legion is better then the 3 core games from GW. (but we are in a GW fan forum after all)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/27 08:41:05


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