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Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I'd imagine the Imperium to end like in the hellenistic period. It won't be one decisive battle (at least not if Terra stays alive, should Terra fall it could/ should indeed happen pretty fast), but you'd have it broken up, falling one by one, getting weakened because of infighting like between the Seleucids and Ptolemaians and so on. You might have something like Ultramar survive even Millenia after the Fall.

And I think that's what's actually happening in the Dark Imperium beyond the rift already.

That's my head canon as well. The Imperium Nihilus in my view has already broken up into lots of little pocket empires that are de facto independent even if they still nominally pay lip service to the idea of the Imperium or may claim to represent the Imperium.

Simply put, local worlds and sectors will look to themselves, and do whatever it takes to stay alive. Maybe this means demanding resources from other sectors, in the name of the Imperial tithe or as emergency Imperial levies. Obviously similar demands from other sectors have to be resisted because otherwise how would your sector survive? Surely it is better for the Imperium to survive in your own sector and prosper, before trying to think about reclaiming other sectors? Secessionist? Oh no, just realist.

I could easily see these pocket empires, backed up by local Imperial Navy (who have taken root in the sector and taken on local loyalties because they aren't getting any help from Segmentum Command) and Inquisitors to give a veneer of legitimacy, warring with other similar pocket empires.

SM chapters could start acting like the Astral Claws, and acting as local overlords of their patch of territory, again ostensibly in the name of protecting it for the Imperium.

None of these breakaway realms have to be out and out Chaos or Genestealer cult either. Just simple humans being humans. Finally all those Imperial vs Imperial games can be justified as real conflicts rather than just "training exercises".

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Even Vigilus is still around and kicking despite being on the brink of death right at the first book (Orks and DE party everywhere and the water reserves had been boiled even before a single CSM set foot on the planet, that thing should have been lost right there, but plot armor is strong in the Imperium).

The Imperium may experience some plot armour from time to time - though given how frequently it is presented as losing campaigns, I wouldn't say all that much - but it is by no means the wearer of the thickest plot armour in the setting.

 Dysartes wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Even Vigilus is still around and kicking despite being on the brink of death right at the first book (Orks and DE party everywhere and the water reserves had been boiled even before a single CSM set foot on the planet, that thing should have been lost right there, but plot armor is strong in the Imperium).

The Imperium may experience some plot armour from time to time - though given how frequently it is presented as losing campaigns, I wouldn't say all that much - but it is by no means the wearer of the thickest plot armour in the setting.

Hmm, my impression is that the Imperium actually wins most campaigns against unsurmountable odds. My reading of Black Library is limited, though.
But as an example the Beast Series: Orks conquer the galaxy until 4 books in and then they just stop and wait 8 books for the Imperium to punch them back.
Every 40K campaign goes like: Chaos or Xenos set a plan in motion that either fails in the end because of Space Marines (Traitor's Hate, Vigilus, Warzone Fenris, DGs Attack on Ultramar) or it ends as a pyrrhic victory for non-imperials (Fall of Cadia).
So my impression is that it's always some kind of plot armor to save the Imperium or at least Space Marines.

Yet Pyrrhic victories is how the Imperium survives.

Even if you wrest a planet or system from Imperial hands? They don’t go go quietly. You will have suffered losses. How bad those losses are will of course vary conflict to conflict. But just in terms of sheer numbers, or ability to reliably bring reinforcements? The Imperium has nearly everyone beat.

Nobody else can really do the Full Scale War thing the way the Imperium can.

I thought that this thread would have information on the suggestions that Abaddon is working for the Emperor, due to staring into the astronómican so long his eyes have turned gold and taking advice from the chaos seer Moriana, possibly a founder of the Inquisition who has helped Greyfax in Eye of Night. You know because I’m not as into 40k as other people.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yet Pyrrhic victories is how the Imperium survives.

Even if you wrest a planet or system from Imperial hands? They don’t go go quietly. You will have suffered losses. How bad those losses are will of course vary conflict to conflict. But just in terms of sheer numbers, or ability to reliably bring reinforcements? The Imperium has nearly everyone beat.

Nobody else can really do the Full Scale War thing the way the Imperium can.

To put it another way, Clausewitz's "friction" keeps the Imperium alive. It also keeps it from winning a decisive victory.

My point about the Tau was that GW rather carelessly forgot to include what form the friction takes for them. I think this was a function of the desire to sell the brand new shiny happy faction, but I guess in true 40k fluff fashion, one can argue that if the Tau ever do possess something close to a serious threat a crusade will be launched and they'll be driven to the brink of extinction before the leading general dies, or Chaos attacks, or the orks get restless, etc.

The Imperium is the USS Cygnus, eternally sitting on the edge of the Black Hole.

GW has told us what limits the Tau. They are limited on the strategic mobility scale by their slower FTL speeds compared to the Imperium's warp travel. They are limited by the limited numbers of Fire Caste warriors and the amount of deliverable new equipment by the Earth Caste. They struggle with now increasing encounters with Chaos and daemons that are increasingly difficult to suppress or explain away. Their auxiliaries have created a warp god acts to protect them but this is viewed with disgust by most Tau, and creates the same choice that Guilliman takes: use faith for the real advantages it brings against Chaos, or stick to one's atheistic original position. They are limited by the struggle to fulfill the promises to those human rebels that side with the Tau. Though they have kept their promises with enough human's to get them dedicated to the Greater Good and serve as gue'vesa, there is the scale issue of whether the Tau can keep such promises of improved quality of life to the massed billions of humans of all the worlds they have taken. If the Tau do not, the conquered could become disillusioned. If they do, then it would be a significant material drain on the Tau resources.

pelicaniforce wrote:
I thought that this thread would have information on the suggestions that Abaddon is working for the Emperor, due to staring into the astronómican so long his eyes have turned gold and taking advice from the chaos seer Moriana, possibly a founder of the Inquisition who has helped Greyfax in Eye of Night. You know because I’m not as into 40k as other people.

When why and how did he do this?

mrFickle wrote:

pelicaniforce wrote:
I thought that this thread would have information on the suggestions that Abaddon is working for the Emperor, due to staring into the astronómican so long his eyes have turned gold and taking advice from the chaos seer Moriana, possibly a founder of the Inquisition who has helped Greyfax in Eye of Night. You know because I’m not as into 40k as other people.

When why and how did he do this?

The part with the golden eyes is allegedly from the novel 'Galaxy in Flames' and happened before renaming the Sons of Horus to Black Legion:

After the Heresy but before assuming leadership of the Black Legion Abaddon stared into the depths of the Astronomican for an extended period. The experience permanently turned his eyes gold, a result of the Emperor's power.[5a]

5: Galaxy In Flames (Novel), [Needs Citation]

5a: Chapter X

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ezekyle_Abaddon#fn_5a

The chaos seer Moriana being identical to the foundress of the Horusian sect of the Inquisition is implied, but not outright stated, in the really old Thorian Sourcebook for Inquisitor54:

According to another source, she was once one of the few members of the Horusians within the nascent Inquisition, a sect which believed that the dark power which had animated Horus Lupercal during the Horus Heresy could be harnessed to resurrect the fallen Emperor. The Horusians were regarded with fear and suspicion by the rest of the Inquisition and consequently trod carefully, while some, like Moriana, fell to Chaos[2].

2: Thorian Faction Sourcebook, (Saved archive page, dated July 2013, last accessed 24 February 2020) by Gav Thorpe, pg. 7

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Moriana#fn_2

It's also one of several conflicting theories about the seers past, because the character is deliberately kept very mysterious.

As for the stuff with the Eye of Night, caution spoilers for the audio drama of the same name:


The story of that particular artifact goes back to the original Battlefleet Gothic rulebook; it's one of two macguffins that were instrumental to activating the Blackstone Fortresses for the forces of chaos, and their whole existence and purpose itself was in turn a soft retcon / explanation-after-the-fact of what Abaddon did in or between Black Crusades.

In the original short story insert describing the meeting between Abaddon and Moriana, she tells him that the whole blackstone fortress stuff is, paraphrased ''The way to allow him to ascend to godhood, to overshadow the so-called Emperor of Mankind and become a living god''. p 87 in the BFG rulebook, reprinted in the 6th edition black legion supplement iirc.

Hmm. So is there any relation between this Eye of Night, and the Hand of Night that the Night Lords "liberated" from Purgatory back in the 2nd edition Chaos codex? Or is it just another case of gw not being very imagination with names?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Hmm. So is there any relation between this Eye of Night, and the Hand of Night that the Night Lords "liberated" from Purgatory back in the 2nd edition Chaos codex? Or is it just another case of gw not being very imagination with names?

You got the name wrong. The artifact was the Hand of Darkness. Together the Eye of Night and Hand of Darkness enabled Abaddon to awaken and control the Blackstone Fortresses of the Gothic Sector. Subsequently he gave the Hand to Mortarion who left it on his plague world. In one of the Ynnari stories, Yvraine successfully recovered the Hand which was suggested to possibly be a corrupted Eldar artifact. The White Seers came to take it away for destruction in their soul forges but Yvraine declined and said she would present it to Guilliman as a gift to strengthen their alliance. What happened afterwards is not known.

Iracundus wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Hmm. So is there any relation between this Eye of Night, and the Hand of Night that the Night Lords "liberated" from Purgatory back in the 2nd edition Chaos codex? Or is it just another case of gw not being very imagination with names?

You got the name wrong. The artifact was the Hand of Darkness. Together the Eye of Night and Hand of Darkness enabled Abaddon to awaken and control the Blackstone Fortresses of the Gothic Sector. Subsequently he gave the Hand to Mortarion who left it on his plague world. In one of the Ynnari stories, Yvraine successfully recovered the Hand which was suggested to possibly be a corrupted Eldar artifact. The White Seers came to take it away for destruction in their soul forges but Yvraine declined and said she would present it to Guilliman as a gift to strengthen their alliance. What happened afterwards is not known.

No, unless the name was changed. It's the Hand of Night in my copy of the 2nd edition Chaos codex. Page 111. Next to last paragraph.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Hmm. So is there any relation between this Eye of Night, and the Hand of Night that the Night Lords "liberated" from Purgatory back in the 2nd edition Chaos codex? Or is it just another case of gw not being very imagination with names?

You got the name wrong. The artifact was the Hand of Darkness. Together the Eye of Night and Hand of Darkness enabled Abaddon to awaken and control the Blackstone Fortresses of the Gothic Sector. Subsequently he gave the Hand to Mortarion who left it on his plague world. In one of the Ynnari stories, Yvraine successfully recovered the Hand which was suggested to possibly be a corrupted Eldar artifact. The White Seers came to take it away for destruction in their soul forges but Yvraine declined and said she would present it to Guilliman as a gift to strengthen their alliance. What happened afterwards is not known.

No, unless the name was changed. It's the Hand of Night in my copy of the 2nd edition Chaos codex. Page 111. Next to last paragraph.

That has to be some sort of mixup with the names, because the Hand of Darkness was definitely found on the planet Purgatory. How many hands of something can there be lying around

Iirc, a lot of stuff from that time period was actually the result of battles in a year-long studio campaign between Jervis Johnson and some of the studio crew, and Abaddons early antics have been soft-retconned a lot since then, to weave them into a greater narrative. At some point in time, the mysterious gold-skinned stranger that lead him to his sword on Uralan was implied to be either Cegorach or the Deceiver, which has now been softly retconned again to be -Spoiler for Master of Mankind

Tsagualsa wrote:


The part with the golden eyes is allegedly from the novel 'Galaxy in Flames' and happened before renaming the Sons of Horus to Black Legion:

After the Heresy but before assuming leadership of the Black Legion Abaddon stared into the depths of the Astronomican for an extended period. The experience permanently turned his eyes gold, a result of the Emperor's power.[5a]

5: Galaxy In Flames (Novel), [Needs Citation]

5a: Chapter X

The citation should be *Talon of Horus* which is set in the period described.

The Talon of Horus

‘Why are your eyes gold?’ I [Khayon, a marine sorceror] ask Abaddon.

He closes them for a moment, touching his fingertips to them. ‘I looked into the Astronomican for a long, long time, listening to its verses and choruses. The Emperor’s Light did this to me.’

‘Does it hurt?’

His answering nod hides more than it reveals. ‘A little. No one ever said enlightenment came without cost, Khayon.’

The chaos seer Moriana being identical to the foundress of the Horusian sect of the Inquisition is implied, but not outright stated, in the really old Thorian Sourcebook for Inquisitor54:

According to another source, she was once one of the few members of the Horusians within the nascent Inquisition, a sect which believed that the dark power which had animated Horus Lupercal during the Horus Heresy could be harnessed to resurrect the fallen Emperor. The Horusians were regarded with fear and suspicion by the rest of the Inquisition and consequently trod carefully, while some, like Moriana, fell to Chaos[2].

2: Thorian Faction Sourcebook, (Saved archive page, dated July 2013, last accessed 24 February 2020) by Gav Thorpe, pg. 7

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Moriana#fn_2

It's also one of several conflicting theories about the seers past, because the character is deliberately kept very mysterious.

The material the Thorian Sourcebook is about and the goal of Horusians is finding a new human-shaped vessel for the Emperor’s power and putting the Emperor into it.

In the original short story insert describing the meeting between Abaddon and Moriana, she tells him that the whole blackstone fortress stuff is, paraphrased ''The way to allow him to ascend to godhood, to overshadow the so-called Emperor of Mankind and become a living god''. p 87 in the BFG rulebook, reprinted in the 6th edition black legion supplement iirc.

Seems like it

pelicaniforce wrote:


The citation should be *Talon of Horus* which is set in the period described.

I see, i took the reference from Lexicanum, which seems to be incorrect then. Possibly just an incorrect number, because the next listed citation is indeed 'Talon of Horus'

The material the Thorian Sourcebook is about and the goal of Horusians is finding a new human-shaped vessel for the Emperor’s power and putting the Emperor into it.

Indeed - Thorians as an overarching faction seek for ways to bring about a return of the Emperor in various forms, with the specific form of his return that is desired being their respective subfactions. The Horusians specifically want to harness the power of Chaos to bring about an avatar or a vessel for the Emperor, while other subfactions look for things like reincarnation, bodily ressurection or stuff like manifestations a.k.a. living saints, demons and so on.

By sheer coincidence, like much of the stuff from Inq54, that whole thread of ideas is very much connected to the 'Abnettverse' side of things...

Tsagualsa wrote:


That has to be some sort of mixup with the names, because the Hand of Darkness was definitely found on the planet Purgatory. How many hands of something can there be lying around?

I don't know, anyone seen Vecna lately? I think he's got a missing eye as well...

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:


That has to be some sort of mixup with the names, because the Hand of Darkness was definitely found on the planet Purgatory. How many hands of something can there be lying around?

I don't know, anyone seen Vecna lately? I think he's got a missing eye as well...

And, depending on how evil the GM is feeling, a missing head, too.

 Dysartes wrote:


And, depending on how evil the GM is feeling, a missing head, too.

Well, in its early days GW was the D&D licensee for the UK. Didn't they do the Fiend Folio? I know I've got a dungeon designed by Tom Kirby and several of the big names are listed as playtesters and developers. Great module, by the way.