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Jarms48 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
If there were excessive nitpicking arguments over the direction of the scatter dice the problem wasn't the game...

Don't forget armour facing.

How do you mean? Nobody ever argued about armor facings. It was far too easy to have a 90 degree template and a laser pointer to sort all that out.


As far as armor facings and damage rolls? That's one of the many factors that made me go back to 3rd. And we also could charge out of any point of the vehicle.

Jarms48 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
If there were excessive nitpicking arguments over the direction of the scatter dice the problem wasn't the game...

Don't forget armour facing.

I didin't it is fantastic and a great part of the game, should have never been removed.....but then 8th ed on isn't really 40K it is some kind of quasi MTG hybrid game with miniatures not really a war game anymore.

 Bobthehero wrote:
I think it was a pretty unique combo, and much superior than the boring 24'' Ap 5 version of pre-5th ed

Even though they were watered down from the guard book the 3e WH/DH stormtroopers were the height of 'boring but practical', though somewhat eclipsed by the 5e veterans. There was a short stretch in 5th where you could out-parking lot the guard(albeit without all the long ranged firepower) and build a 6' wall of meltagun-packed rhinos at 1500pts...

It was not a practical list, but it was an amusing deployment phase.

I'm still trying to figure out how this thread is much different from the "All Things Old Editions" thread half-way down the page.

 Platuan4th wrote:
I'm still trying to figure out how this thread is much different from the "All Things Old Editions" thread half-way down the page.

Don't like it? Don't engage.

 Platuan4th wrote:
I'm still trying to figure out how this thread is much different from the "All Things Old Editions" thread half-way down the page.

Not much, maybe the OP didn't notice that one, but had similar thoughts.

All about 2nd Edition.

It was glorious. A mess, but a glorious one.

Tanks didn’t simply get wrecked. Turrets were blown off, and in my experience had an unerring accuracy for landing on and squishing someone important. Sometimes, it was even an enemy model getting squished!

Flamers were useful, and would properly set folk on fire, sending them scurrying off.

Just….happy, halcyon days. This opinion is also heavily coloured by the fact it was my pre-stresses of adulthood days. Those happy and often awkward years where you’re no longer a boy, but not quite a man.

On a more melancholic note, I miss the childish wonder I experienced when encountering certain kits. When I started this hobby in primary school the only source of models was the local toy shop and travelling to the nearby GWs was a huge and rare undertaking. The shop stocked 40k, Fantasy and LoTR on a rather random basis, no real pattern to what stock they'd receive every couple of weeks.

I remember I'd saved my money to get the Codex, and Terminators always seemed a bit mythical to me, these invulnerable walking tanks that I've heard plenty about but never seen in the flesh. Well the day I went to the shop and saw they had the plastic box for £20, I couldn't believe it. At the time, it was the holy grail of my army. Same with the Land Raider, my first one was a Crusader and that seemed even rarer at the time.

Now as I age I don't get that anymore. The fact that I can just look online and a couple of clicks later I've bought it, does make me rather sad at times.

Inevitable consequence of growing older I’m afraid.

As an occasional toy collector, I often see photos like this one.



And it hits me right in the nostalgias every single time. That was part of my childhood. Not just the visual spectacle, but because getting a New Toy was a treat outside of Birthday and Christmas. It meant time with my Grandparents, and getting spoiled a bit. It meant weeks of saving up my pocket money, and getting to pick something for myself.

Now? I’m a working adult with a decent income. I’m not rich nor wealthy, but I am comfortable, certainly to the point where I can buy more or less what I want, within reason. Still have to budget, but don’t have to belt tighten.

Like my nostalgia for 2nd Ed, it’s as much the memory of the situation and period in my life as the actual game itself.

For 40K and GW, it’s never quite the same once you have your own stable income, as you gain a freedom to buy whatever you want (again within reason. I’m not talking a new army a month or owt). Compared to having to save up for say, a box of Assault Marines it’s a different experience. Better in some ways, lesser in others.

We can sort of replicate it. For Heresy, I was drawn to an Ironwing force, with lots of Predators. This month came not only Black Friday, but a significant Overtime payment on my wage. Managed to bag 3 Support Predators from Element Games for £26 each. That experience is a pleasing mix of the two. Bargain on something I didn’t think I’d be able to afford this year, funded by money I’d worked hard for. So that was a pleasing mix of two experiences.

Yeah absolutely get where you guys are coming from. Back when I first started collecting Warhammer - it was the early 90s, I was maybe 13-14 years old, and the closest place I was aware of that sold it was the original Games Workshop store in Hammersmith. That was an absolute Aladdin's-Cave of awesome to a geeky young me. Not felt the same since - I think it's more down to that first hit of finding this new amazing thing you didn't know existed, and just being blown away by the possibilities. Once that is out of the box it doesn't go back in again.

Also, I don’t know if this applies to anyone else, but those early days forged friendships that last to this day.

My best mate and I bonded over GW stuff. And just this year I upped sticks and moved home so we can hang out more often, amongst other reasons.

Pretty much everyone else I know, especially those I consider Proper Friends and not just acquaintances are through mutual love of GW stuffs.

I’d even venture that as GW appeals to Nerdy Kids, some of us may have found safe refuge with likeminded nerds, finding a place to belong we just didn’t in school. Especially in the GW Store for me.

On the subject of stuff not directly related to gameplay... I miss being able to read codex' before I bought them.

I specifically remember starting my second army, nids, in large part because I spent 20 minutes going through their codex at the GW store and thought it looked like awesome fun. Being able to look at the army itself, the units and special rules it had, was great for getting the juices flowing and "picturing it" before you'd get it. I think it helped sales.

As a former till monkey? Open Copies were a double edged sword.

There of course for just as you said, free perusal and a form of advertising. Also useful in helping a mark. I mean customer, customer, not mark, ahem, decide between say, a Lascannon or Heavy Plasma Gun whilst away from their own book.

But. They often became tatty and knackered, as sticky fingered oiks would turn up to games, just expecting to use Open Copies rather than bring their own. And if that one was in use, the next Sticky Fingered Oik would get their dabs all over the next copy of the shelf, which would have to be Known Loss’d.

I miss the days when the people who played 40k acknowledged that the game wasn't a paragon of perfect balance and you could do things other than play 100% as-written perfect tournament-standard missions with tournament-standard terrain on tournament-standard tables and tournament-standard armies.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I miss the days when the people who played 40k acknowledged that the game wasn't a paragon of perfect balance and you could do things other than play 100% as-written perfect tournament-standard missions with tournament-standard terrain on tournament-standard tables and tournament-standard armies.

Yeah, expecting clear rules writing was so much worse and I loved rolling off to solve disputes.

 Valkyrie wrote:
On a more melancholic note, I miss the childish wonder I experienced when encountering certain kits. When I started this hobby in primary school the only source of models was the local toy shop and travelling to the nearby GWs was a huge and rare undertaking. The shop stocked 40k, Fantasy and LoTR on a rather random basis, no real pattern to what stock they'd receive every couple of weeks.

I remember I'd saved my money to get the Codex, and Terminators always seemed a bit mythical to me, these invulnerable walking tanks that I've heard plenty about but never seen in the flesh. Well the day I went to the shop and saw they had the plastic box for £20, I couldn't believe it. At the time, it was the holy grail of my army. Same with the Land Raider, my first one was a Crusader and that seemed even rarer at the time.

Now as I age I don't get that anymore. The fact that I can just look online and a couple of clicks later I've bought it, does make me rather sad at times.

Got that same first hit with Terminators back when I joined this hobby in 2nd ed. Remember going into my local GW for the first time (after being sent there by a lady from Woolworth's looking for models for a game called Havok) and seeing the blister pack labelled "Chaos space marine Terminator with heavy flamer" and wondering what on earth that word salad in front of me meant, like you knew all of the individual words, but what was this? Left with a starter paint set and a metal Terminator sergeant, as I really loved Termies, and still do to this day.

I can say though, what really hit me in the childlike wonder bit was a store in Burton called Spirit Games (that sadly has gone online only post covid) that was in a listed building and had been there for literal decades. It was full to the brim of the most random stuff in wargaming you could think of, and an entire wall of Reaper minis. You could look at that wall for hours, poring over the blister packs, or come in armed with the product codes from Reaper's site to help you navigate it (it was all in code order). That store was like my idea of heaven for just finding random models you never knew you needed.

For me, it was discovering a world beyond Hero Quest and Space Crusade (Oi, Hasbro. Where’s me new Space Crusade??).

From there, finding out Edinburgh had an entire shop just selling those little bits of wonder.

Tiny. Mind. Blown. Like…right out. Up the nearest tree and straight on to morning Tiny Mind Blown.

Add in the visual anarchy of very early 40K? And that was that. Been hooked ever since. Same with 2000AD, GW’s anarchic stablemate. Not something my parents ever bought me like, but every time I got a Noggin Chop at Chainsaw Harry’s? He had the then latest issue (and many, many back issues!) for those in the queue to read. And read I did.

Love me my 40K and 2000AD!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also, I don’t know if this applies to anyone else, but those early days forged friendships that last to this day.

My oldest friend got me into the game. First time I went to his house - we were 9 years old - he was painting Epic scale Eldar Falcons.

Eventually we decided to get into 40k proper.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I miss the days when the people who played 40k acknowledged that the game wasn't a paragon of perfect balance and you could do things other than play 100% as-written perfect tournament-standard missions with tournament-standard terrain on tournament-standard tables and tournament-standard armies.

Yeah, expecting clear rules writing was so much worse and I loved rolling off to solve disputes.

I think AnomanderRake's point was that it was easier to play something besides lame, boring tournament . Every. . Game.

 aphyon wrote:

I didin't it is fantastic and a great part of the game, should have never been removed.....but then 8th ed on isn't really 40K it is some kind of quasi MTG hybrid game with miniatures not really a war game anymore.

People absolutely argued about armour facing.

“Oh, you’re 2 degrees off that’s still the 14 front armour.”
‘No, that’s clearly the side armour.’
“It’s definitely the front, you draw the 90 degree line from here.”
‘Should I get my protractor out?’
“How about we roll off? 1-3 is side, 4-6 is front.”

It got even worse when more and more factions had vehicles that weren’t literal boxes on tracks.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I miss the days when the people who played 40k acknowledged that the game wasn't a paragon of perfect balance and you could do things other than play 100% as-written perfect tournament-standard missions with tournament-standard terrain on tournament-standard tables and tournament-standard armies.

Yeah, expecting clear rules writing was so much worse and I loved rolling off to solve disputes.

I think AnomanderRake's point was that it was easier to play something besides lame, boring tournament . Every. . Game.

Also that I'd genuinely prefer vague rules writing and rolling off to solve disputes to being blown off the table in two turns and being told "yeah, you need to buy a whole new army, all this is terrible" every game.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I miss the days when the people who played 40k acknowledged that the game wasn't a paragon of perfect balance and you could do things other than play 100% as-written perfect tournament-standard missions with tournament-standard terrain on tournament-standard tables and tournament-standard armies.

I always considered the game to be purposely unbalanced because it was made for epic battles in the 40K universe I.E. thematic. your dudes should behave like they would in the universe. every army had a weakness, and it was your skill as the general to play to your strengths with this in mind.

That is why most of the best codexes/army lists were from 3rd and 4th as far as thematic armies go in accordance with the setting as they finalized it by 3rd ed.

Upvotes Spirit Games. Miss getting hopelessly distracted in there.

Jarms48 wrote:

 aphyon wrote:

I didin't it is fantastic and a great part of the game, should have never been removed.....but then 8th ed on isn't really 40K it is some kind of quasi MTG hybrid game with miniatures not really a war game anymore.

People absolutely argued about armour facing.

“Oh, you’re 2 degrees off that’s still the 14 front armour.”
‘No, that’s clearly the side armour.’
“It’s definitely the front, you draw the 90 degree line from here.”
‘Should I get my protractor out?’
“How about we roll off? 1-3 is side, 4-6 is front.”

It got even worse when more and more factions had vehicles that weren’t literal boxes on tracks.

‘Member partials with templates? Oooh, I ‘member!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Jarms48 wrote:

 aphyon wrote:

I didin't it is fantastic and a great part of the game, should have never been removed.....but then 8th ed on isn't really 40K it is some kind of quasi MTG hybrid game with miniatures not really a war game anymore.

People absolutely argued about armour facing.

“Oh, you’re 2 degrees off that’s still the 14 front armour.”
‘No, that’s clearly the side armour.’
“It’s definitely the front, you draw the 90 degree line from here.”
‘Should I get my protractor out?’
“How about we roll off? 1-3 is side, 4-6 is front.”

It got even worse when more and more factions had vehicles that weren’t literal boxes on tracks.

‘Member partials with templates? Oooh, I ‘member!

Outside of a couple of TFGs you simply didn't see that kind of thing in the wild. Hell, I had a player who started in 6th or 7th become my regular 3rd Ed. opponent and we never once had a disagreement over partials, armor facings, or the template drift.

They did get better over time. I for one don’t particularly miss them in 40K. But man, when arguments were had about the positioning and who was and wasn’t clipped or 50%+ covered dragged out.

 aphyon wrote:

I always considered the game to be purposely unbalanced because it was made for epic battles in the 40K universe I.E. thematic. your dudes should behave like they would in the universe. every army had a weakness, and it was your skill as the general to play to your strengths with this in mind.

The rulebook clearly stated that creating a good game was a cooperative effort on the part of the players and most if not all the special units required your opponent's consent to use them.

Terrain was also something that was supposed to be collaborative. The concept of one player sets the terrain, the other gets to choose his starting board edge worked.

Starting in 3rd, that went away as GW began rendering everything as a practice for tournament play and there was a noted shift in the community to "tournament test list" armies. I remember people kvetching about various unbalanced lists that made for terribly dull game play and the response wasn't "What a jerk" but "Well, in tournament play, they'll pay a price for that."

No! I want to play a good game today, and "back in the day," that's what people were focused on, not using pick-up games as a scrimmage for the next grand tournament.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

The rulebook clearly stated that creating a good game was a cooperative effort on the part of the players and most if not all the special units required your opponent's consent to use them.

I remember when an impartial game master was the assumption of how to play.

I have 100 Praetorian IG sitting on my Dining room table because of the new codex. Now I just need and Ork opponent

Jarms48 wrote:

 aphyon wrote:

I didin't it is fantastic and a great part of the game, should have never been removed.....but then 8th ed on isn't really 40K it is some kind of quasi MTG hybrid game with miniatures not really a war game anymore.

People absolutely argued about armour facing.

“Oh, you’re 2 degrees off that’s still the 14 front armour.”
‘No, that’s clearly the side armour.’
“It’s definitely the front, you draw the 90 degree line from here.”
‘Should I get my protractor out?’
“How about we roll off? 1-3 is side, 4-6 is front.”

It got even worse when more and more factions had vehicles that weren’t literal boxes on tracks.

This happens when immature people play tabletop games. Better for those types to spend their time with something else.