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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Breton wrote:
Voss wrote:
ccs wrote:
Breton wrote:
Voss wrote:


You don't know what the criteria is, why would it seem more 'honest' to you?
Because you're not getting "fooled" by repacks etc. If it's moving fast its because it sold, not because they're swapping the booklets.


I'm not being fooled by "temporarily out of stock" messages.
It just means I can't place an order for (x) atm & will have to check back later.
They owe me no explanation as to why something is TOoS, and I don't care about the why.


Thank you. I was at a loss about being 'fooled' about Out of Stock items. I couldn't even vaguely grasp the relevance to the binary state of can or can't order.


Sometimes you just have to set your personal animosity aside and think a little deeper - that would have saved Voss when he tried the gotcha over Drop Pods only to have several people point out exactly why it was a No Brainer. Out Of Stock - especially before a big release - is not binary. It could be 0 Stock On Hand, or it could be the Stock On Hand has been pulled for repacking, or a number of other reasons.

I'm confused about what the practical difference is. All I care about as a customer is that I can't order it. There could be multiple reasons, ranging from repackaging some stuff to a very localised flood at the warehouse to an inability to keep up with sudden demand. Since we can't know which of those is the case (or which of the other near-infinite reasons for something being OoS) what difference does it make?
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




Breton wrote:
Voss wrote:
ccs wrote:
Breton wrote:
Voss wrote:


You don't know what the criteria is, why would it seem more 'honest' to you?
Because you're not getting "fooled" by repacks etc. If it's moving fast its because it sold, not because they're swapping the booklets.


I'm not being fooled by "temporarily out of stock" messages.
It just means I can't place an order for (x) atm & will have to check back later.
They owe me no explanation as to why something is TOoS, and I don't care about the why.


Thank you. I was at a loss about being 'fooled' about Out of Stock items. I couldn't even vaguely grasp the relevance to the binary state of can or can't order.


Sometimes you just have to set your personal animosity aside and think a little deeper - that would have saved Voss when he tried the gotcha over Drop Pods only to have several people point out exactly why it was a No Brainer. Out Of Stock - especially before a big release - is not binary. It could be 0 Stock On Hand, or it could be the Stock On Hand has been pulled for repacking, or a number of other reasons.


Well, one person posited a reasonable argument that it was speculation that drop pods might be worthwhile because the rules might work and may also function with primaris, but feel free to imagine something different, I guess. It goes well with the idea that the question about a model with completely unknown rules was somehow a 'gotcha.'

As for the other, zero on hand is zero on hand. It doesn't matter at all why.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/30 15:19:21


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





Slipspace wrote:

I'm confused about what the practical difference is. All I care about as a customer is that I can't order it. There could be multiple reasons, ranging from repackaging some stuff to a very localised flood at the warehouse to an inability to keep up with sudden demand. Since we can't know which of those is the case (or which of the other near-infinite reasons for something being OoS) what difference does it make?


Items that actually sold out/are-moving-fast are being bought - which may give hints to an upcoming meta/theme/build. Trying to discern what is being bought for what build can be a fun and informative mental exercise of varying use to players, especially the competitive ones. As someone who doesn't play Blood Angels myself, I don't care if the Baal Predator is available or not - but I am curious why it's selling fast, and what I can take away from that and use for the things I would buy/use. I don't play Black Legion, but I see the Defiler is selling fast - so I'll go take a look at what it's got for weapons and keywords to try and figure out what, and what parallels I might have available in the armies I do play and if that feeds into one of the builds I like to run.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/05/31 02:58:39


My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Enginseer with a Wrench






 JNAProductions wrote:
Most unique characters shouldn't have unique rules. They should be a certain set of options from generic characters.
Exceptions would be things like Primarchs. Vashtorr would be an exception too-but Huron, Calgar, Honsou, Badruk, Orikan... They should all be buildable from generic characters, in the rules.


Ruleswise, I agree with you on this. Special Characters can broadly be split into two categories – 'Examplars', and 'Unique'.

Marneus Calgar, Eldrad Ulthuan and Ghazghkull Thraka, for example, are what I'd call Examplars. They are effectively exaggerated versions of other units that exist in their army – Chapter Master, Exarch and Warboss respectively. The difference in statline is usually negligible beyond perhaps an extra pip here or there, and it's their special rules and equipment that make them stand out.

You could quite happily have a customisable Chapter Master unit entry, plus a sidebar that said 'If you select the Armour of Antilochus, and Gauntlets of Ultramar wargear, you can opt to field the Chapter Master as the Epic Hero Marneus Calgar, who also gains X, Y and Z rules and the <Ultramarines> keyword. If you select the Sword of Secrets and Lion Helm, you can opt to field the Chapter Master as the Epic Hero Azrael, who also gains [etc.]'

That would allow people to create other 'named Chapter' Chapter Masters, who could share particular equipment, but Calgar, Azrael, Helbrecht etc. would still remain exceptional.

Same principle for Skarbrand from Bloodthirster; Eldrad from Farseer; Ghazghkull Thraka etc.

+++
Unique special characters, however, are those that have no direct equivalent in the standard list – effectively, those that warrant a separate unit entry because they're so different from anything else in the list. Vashtorr is an example of this, but Inquisitor Karamazov, Illic Nightspear, Ranulf, Sly Marbo or The Blue Scribes are better examples.

Unique special characters are, I'd argue, more what was pictured when special characters became a 'thing'. They weren't necessarily meant to be better or more powerful than another choice, but rather revealed a particular aspect about the broader army.

+++
I don't think that one type is inherently more characterful than the others – I think Captain Tycho is a good example of a genuinely interesting character, but he'd be easy to do as a set of equipment for a Space Marine Captain. Likewise I think some long-existing characters in lore – Prince Yriel is a good example – were introduced to the game in a slightly disappointing way. He's effectively an Exemplar Autarch, but I think that reflects the direction of the game rather than his underlying character.

+Death of a Rubricist+
My miniature painting blog.
 
   
Made in de
Servoarm Flailing Magos




Germany

 Apologist wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Most unique characters shouldn't have unique rules. They should be a certain set of options from generic characters.
Exceptions would be things like Primarchs. Vashtorr would be an exception too-but Huron, Calgar, Honsou, Badruk, Orikan... They should all be buildable from generic characters, in the rules.


Ruleswise, I agree with you on this. Special Characters can broadly be split into two categories – 'Examplars', and 'Unique'.


All very valid points; i said it before, i say it again: 40k needs an intermediate level between Killteam and current 40k that's closer to the sizes and composition of late 2nd/ early 3rd edition, but with more options for customization and 'roleplaying' elements, where such things can thrive and Lords of War etc. are largely absent. The Combat Patrol mode is a step in the right direction i think, and i hope that they continue to go in that direction.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Apologist wrote:


You could quite happily have a customisable Chapter Master unit entry, plus a sidebar that said 'If you select the Armour of Antilochus, and Gauntlets of Ultramar wargear, you can opt to field the Chapter Master as the Epic Hero Marneus Calgar, who also gains X, Y and Z rules and the <Ultramarines> keyword. If you select the Sword of Secrets and Lion Helm, you can opt to field the Chapter Master as the Epic Hero Azrael, who also gains [etc.]'

That would allow people to create other 'named Chapter' Chapter Masters, who could share particular equipment, but Calgar, Azrael, Helbrecht etc. would still remain exceptional.

.


Yes, but this way people wouldn't be buying premium priced special characters to get access to their superior rules.






I don't think that one type is inherently more characterful than the others – I think Captain Tycho is a good example of a genuinely interesting character, but he'd be easy to do as a set of equipment for a Space Marine Captain. Likewise I think some long-existing characters in lore – Prince Yriel is a good example – were introduced to the game in a slightly disappointing way. He's effectively an Exemplar Autarch, but I think that reflects the direction of the game rather than his underlying character

I am not sure about the eldar dude, because eldar HQ slots are always locked in. But I don't think many people used or owned a Tycho model. There was nothing interesting about him, even the DC version was very meh. Just like all the other space marine characters that are melee only and don't bring anything extra, to make them worthwhile.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






You could tell that even GW didn't know what they were doing with Tycho, because they had to bodgeva bunch of special gear onto him to get him to be more than a sub-optimally armed Captain.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

He was just an homage to a Captain from an early Battle Report.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Enginseer with a Wrench






Not to lurch too hard off-topic, but that's a related point. Most of the early special characters – Ghazghkull, Commissar Yarrick, Ragnar Blackmane, Captain Tycho – were intended simply as opportunities for the writers to give a bit of personality to make a faction a bit more relatable; or highlight something special about the culture of the Chapter.

Tycho's a perfect example of the latter – he's got real-world inspiration for an ork-hating Blood Angel that allowed the writers to explore how the Black Rage takes hold of even the most promising and noble. A sort of 'show, don't tell' approach to lore.

Much as I like the character, however, he doesn't really justify having special rules beyond 'Captain affected by the Black Rage' – but because GW's commercial philosophy has been 'models sell Codex book, Codex books sell models', I think there are lots of similar 'Special Characters' that would once have simply been cool models.

Perhaps the new 'Detachment and card deck' approach to 10th edition will change that?

Consider Dante, Calgar, Azrael – all special characters with rules that helps to sell the model and vice versa. There's nothing inherently differentiating those aforementioned Chapter Masters from, say, the Primaris Lieutenants for each of those Chapters – Tolmeron, Cassius, Zakariah.

Would the latter group have sold more if they'd had special rules and fixed load-outs? Who can say?


Either way (and dragging things back to Vashtorr the Arkifane) it strikes me that he rather suffered from being a model lacking an army. Going back to my earlier definitions, he's a 'Unique' character, so he's not – unlike the Space Marines above – useable as much else besides perhaps an undivided Daemon Prince.

If GW are switching to a Detachment and card deck model, I think they'll find it easier to market characters like this, as you haven't got to wait for a big Codex – they can release what amounts to a mini-supplement with Vashtorr and one or two new releases. Voila; new mini-faction.

+Death of a Rubricist+
My miniature painting blog.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Vashtorr also doesn't feel like a demi-god at all. He's very anemic for what in the backstory is implied to be a massive threat.
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





Karol wrote:
But I don't think many people used or owned a Tycho model. There was nothing interesting about him, even the DC version was very meh. Just like all the other space marine characters that are melee only and don't bring anything extra, to make them worthwhile.


I'd say the DC version was even more Meh - as I recall he still had his combiweapon, and didn't have a jump pack so he didn't synergize very well with Death Company. The roll out of Legends and/or the Primaris switchover would have been an excellent time to replace Tycho with someone who was both
Spoiler:
Still alive for suspension of disbelief purposes
and in keeping with the Blood Angels.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Apologist wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Most unique characters shouldn't have unique rules. They should be a certain set of options from generic characters.
Exceptions would be things like Primarchs. Vashtorr would be an exception too-but Huron, Calgar, Honsou, Badruk, Orikan... They should all be buildable from generic characters, in the rules.


Ruleswise, I agree with you on this. Special Characters can broadly be split into two categories – 'Examplars', and 'Unique'.

Marneus Calgar, Eldrad Ulthuan and Ghazghkull Thraka, for example, are what I'd call Examplars. They are effectively exaggerated versions of other units that exist in their army – Chapter Master, Exarch and Warboss respectively. The difference in statline is usually negligible beyond perhaps an extra pip here or there, and it's their special rules and equipment that make them stand out.

You could quite happily have a customisable Chapter Master unit entry, plus a sidebar that said 'If you select the Armour of Antilochus, and Gauntlets of Ultramar wargear, you can opt to field the Chapter Master as the Epic Hero Marneus Calgar, who also gains X, Y and Z rules and the <Ultramarines> keyword. If you select the Sword of Secrets and Lion Helm, you can opt to field the Chapter Master as the Epic Hero Azrael, who also gains [etc.]'
I'd say Calgar was more of a Unique - you didn't see the two fisting two gunning model outside of Calgar until Aggressors showed up - in fact I'd say Aggressors were designed to give everyone a mini-Calgar. Also equipment and special rules are often the same thing. When Calgar first came out there was something called swarming. 10 Grots against one character got better as each previous grot sacrificed themselves into a red pulp. Originally Calgar's fists/special rules countered that and the 10th grot was no different than the first one. Later on, you had Specialist weapons for fists and thunder hammers and the like and Calgar's fists often broke that paradigm as well. His guns are easily seen as a Stormbolter but usually have better stats. He unlocks slot free Victrix.

That would allow people to create other 'named Chapter' Chapter Masters, who could share particular equipment, but Calgar, Azrael, Helbrecht etc. would still remain exceptional.

They had a system for creating Chapter Masters, Chief Apothecaries etc. that I hope sticks around or gets brought back when it would matter - but they still kept the special rules attached to special equipment locked down so there wouldn't be any mixing and matching - like the Gauntlets of Ultramar paired with the Lion Helm. That's part of why I point out Special Rules and Special Gear are pretty much the same thing - to keep the pairings in pre-tested preapproved groups.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/02 02:23:20


My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
 
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