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The differentiation between Carnifex and Screamer Killers are an interesting development...

So I've looked at the space marine index and I still don't buy GWs claim of fewer re rolls.

Bladeguard re rolling 1s on their invuln? Eradicators re rolling absolutely everything against monsters and vehicles? Lots of twin linked stuff and re rolls against units on objectives....yeah, I don't buy it.

Well that needs to be compared to everybody getting rerolls against everything. Not even needed to be on objective.

tneva82 wrote:
Well that needs to be compared to everybody getting rerolls against everything. Not even needed to be on objective.

Yeah, like eradicators re rolling everything against their main targets? Or Bladeguard re rolling 1s on their invuln (which is a completely new kind of insanity imo)? Or like all the twin linked stuff?

Tiberias wrote:
So I've looked at the space marine index and I still don't buy GWs claim of fewer re rolls.

Bladeguard re rolling 1s on their invuln? Eradicators re rolling absolutely everything against monsters and vehicles? Lots of twin linked stuff and re rolls against units on objectives....yeah, I don't buy it.

The thing with marines is their abilities are redundant with Oath. We should also expect a more elite army to do more rerolling, but have more expensive models.

Using the count of the word re-roll is terribly misleading, too as many rules have re-roll mentioned multiple times.

There are 15 datasheets granting rerolls. Four of them are special characters.

Then you have the Razorback, which is only on dumped units ( which is super cool ). The Lancer has one die per part of the attack phase. Predator rerolls a damage roll of 1 - look out! Eradicators are balls to the wall, but substantially nerfed. Ballistus is only on full wound units. Boxy gives a RR1 aura. Cent Devs as Assault Intercessors have an objective conditional. BGV RR1s. Company Champ gets hits and wounds in melee only. The new LT grants rerolls only against models on his priority target objective. The termie captain has a reroll charge.

Then you have your twin-links, which are reduced in shots.

Now let's look at 9th. Units with reroll auras plus:

Primaris Captain
Captain w/ HBR
Captain in Phobos
Captain in Gravis
Captain in Terminator
Captain
Captain on Bike
Primaris LT
Reiver LT
LT
Phobos LT

Then you have :

Melee Ironclad
Master Artisans
Wisdom of the Ancients
Imperiums Sword
Litany of Hate
Chapter Master
Damocles Command Rhino
Tor Garadon
Bobby
Pedro
Shrike
Adrax
Vulkan
Marneus
Uriel
Khan on Bike
Kor'sarro

That pretty much seems like less to me even with Oath.

Rerolls have been clearly reduced a lot.

The type of rerolls has also drastically changed. Previously the norm was units granting rerolls to other units, which made buff stacking possible.

Now the rerolls are on the datasheet of the unit itself and active in specific conditions, rewarding that unit to perform its intended role.

The only datasheet which leaves me baffled is the dreadnaught... seriously? A reroll aura? In 10th?

Rerolls may be down, but its hard to look at Marine options and think "lethality" had come down.

Indirect will likely need a super-nerf (or a faq that removes all the ways to get around the original nerf). Points etc, but if Marines are Custodes level per model that doesn't change anything.

Dreads can't join units so I get the reroll aura.

They could probably just as easily have skipped it entirely, but maybe they felt the Dread needed a little something.

Breton wrote:
Dreads can't join units so I get the reroll aura.

They could probably just as easily have skipped it entirely, but maybe they felt the Dread needed a little something.

If feel like a re-roll aura on a rather fragile vehicle with no defensive abilities is a lot less problematic than a re-roll aura on a hard-to-kill character hiding behind LoS!

 Jidmah wrote:

Breton wrote:
Dreads can't join units so I get the reroll aura.

They could probably just as easily have skipped it entirely, but maybe they felt the Dread needed a little something.

If feel like a re-roll aura on a rather fragile vehicle with no defensive abilities is a lot less problematic than a re-roll aura on a hard-to-kill character hiding behind LoS!

Yeah it neither bothers nor excites me. It feels like a throw-away - a nod to Tradition - and where would you use it? Something you're not using Oath on, sniper scouts that didn't infiltrate? Heavy Intercessors backfield camping already hit on 2's because of HEAVY - that's a lot of points for +1 to hit on a couple Heavy Bolters. Oh, I did come up with one potential: Make a gaggle of Dreads rampaging across the board - one regular to give the Contemptors, Redemptors and Brutalis reroll 1's leaving Oath for the other half or so of your army? Its got potential I suppose.

Tyel wrote:
Rerolls may be down, but its hard to look at Marine options and think "lethality" had come down.

Or buff stacking (I'm sure total theoretical buff stack is down comparatively, but the buff stacks get pretty tasty)
Lets break this down in an example.

Space marine captain (power fist & Honor Vehement enhancement (+1A and S for melee, changes to +2 if assault doctrine is active) with jump pack + assault squad with jump packs.

Assault doctrine is active (either really active or because adaptive strategy strat in your command phase): advance and charge
Honor the Chapter stratagem in the fight phase- unit gains [Lance], so +1 to wound rolls. Also because Assault doctrine, extra -1 AP.

Angel's wrath from the captain gives +1 strength to the unit on the charge. Rites of battle makes 'Honor the chapter' OR 'Adaptive Strategy' strat free, every round.

Captain is attacking 7 times at S11 (8+1 for angel's wrath, +2 for Honor Vehement with assault doctrine active), with +1 to wound rolls from Honor the Chapter, and -3AP, 2 damage each. Anything T10 or below, he wounds on 2. T11 is 3+, everything else T12+ is 4s.

-----
So...

hammer of wrath is 11 dice, every 4+ is a MW

Captain is 7 attacks, S11 and +1 to wound, -3AP and 2 damage each
Powerfist sergeant gets 3 S9 attacks, +1 to wound, -3AP, 2 damage
2 eviscerators are (WS4+) 6 S8 attacks, +1 to wound, -3AP, 2 damage
rest of the squad brings 28 S5 attacks, +1 to wound, -2AP, 1 damage.

Don't forget assorted pistols or even the grenade stratagem if you need more mortal wounds and are close enough.

This is of course just day 1 stuff. The blood angel detachment rule looks like an obvious thing to build on for units like this, since it gives +1S and A on the charge, but you won't have the same enhancement, doctrine or strats. Those WILL be traded out for something else (better or worse is up in the air, though the fact that a lot of the marine strats for this detachment are dependent on doctrines and tyranid strats on synapse tells me they're going for interactions).

Without the need for a character to even join the squad 10 SG in 9th with just 6" of warlord (or ancient ability) and either strat/doctrine/priest had 50 attacks with S5 +1 to wound -4AP 2D that hit on 2+. Barely anything with T above 8 so even against T8 3+ it would have been 40+ damage dealt. 20 S4 -1Ap 18" shots with assault that could hit on 2+ as well. This without adding in reroll to hits which they surely had and maybe even extra attacks from a Librarian. No one even bothered with reroll 1s to wounds even if they could have gotten it easily.

Squad so lethal nobody ran more than 7 models in the squad since more would just overkill everything. Vanguard Veterans could be kitted out to similar performance but more specialized rather than as all rounded.

Lethality is way down.

That captain hits like a wet noodle and you could have vanguard veteran sergeants hit harder than that in more than 1 chapter in 9th.

Then that's good, because as is, this still looks excessive for _10th edition._

I actively don't care about cross edition comparisons. They're both meaningless and a bizarre tribute to how stupid the game got.

Breton wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Breton wrote:
Dreads can't join units so I get the reroll aura.

They could probably just as easily have skipped it entirely, but maybe they felt the Dread needed a little something.

If feel like a re-roll aura on a rather fragile vehicle with no defensive abilities is a lot less problematic than a re-roll aura on a hard-to-kill character hiding behind LoS!

Yeah it neither bothers nor excites me. It feels like a throw-away - a nod to Tradition - and where would you use it? Something you're not using Oath on, sniper scouts that didn't infiltrate? Heavy Intercessors backfield camping already hit on 2's because of HEAVY - that's a lot of points for +1 to hit on a couple Heavy Bolters. Oh, I did come up with one potential: Make a gaggle of Dreads rampaging across the board - one regular to give the Contemptors, Redemptors and Brutalis reroll 1's leaving Oath for the other half or so of your army? Its got potential I suppose.

It's infantry only though. I feel like your are overestimating oaths though - you get re-rolls against five units over the course of a game. Against knights or custodes, that's a lot. Against orks or nids, it's not.

Voss wrote:

Assault doctrine is active (either really active or because adaptive strategy strat in your command phase): advance and charge
Honor the Chapter stratagem in the fight phase- unit gains [Lance], so +1 to wound rolls. Also because Assault doctrine, extra -1 AP.

Angel's wrath from the captain gives +1 strength to the unit on the charge. Rites of battle makes 'Honor the chapter' OR 'Adaptive Strategy' strat free, every round.

That's still a lot of CP when it sounds like we're not going to have all that much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
I feel like your are overestimating oaths though - you get re-rolls against five units over the course of a game. Against knights or custodes, that's a lot. Against orks or nids, it's not.

How many units do you need it for? (And I have G giving up to another 5 as a potential option) - But honestly, Oath is for the Must-Die wombo-combo breaker, or Objective Cleaner. If I need to OOM every opposition unit, I've already lost anyway.

Voss wrote:
Then that's good, because as is, this still looks excessive for _10th edition._

I actively don't care about cross edition comparisons. They're both meaningless and a bizarre tribute to how stupid the game got.

9th - every other unit is capable of killing itself in a turn.
10th - only some units seem able to do this. Its progress. Sure, those units might inexplicably show up more in lists than the others, but go with it.

Tyel wrote:
Rerolls may be down, but its hard to look at Marine options and think "lethality" had come down.

Indirect will likely need a super-nerf (or a faq that removes all the ways to get around the original nerf). Points etc, but if Marines are Custodes level per model that doesn't change anything.

I think Nick said it best - it's a different kind of lethal. We'll have to see how much we need the 'third player' this time around.

Breton wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

Breton wrote:
Meh, Reroll on a 2+ or on a 6+ are not that big of a deal. That's your gut reaction, not a thought out response. Reroll hits on a 2+ to hit are rarely necessary, and will rarely influence anything. Rerolls on the 3+/4+ make the big difference. 50% hit rate becomes 75% for the 4+ for example.

You, Sir, apparently never use models that have a 2+ to hit. I routinely miss on a 2+. So much so that I assume I will miss closer to 2 in 6 rather than 1 in 6 2+ rolls. Keeps me from going crazy.

Well 2+ isn't all that common, even less so on sub-character level models. Plus you're talking about the fallacy of misleading vividness not empirical mathematics. Because missing a 2+ isn't supposed to happen often, when it does it sticks more in your memory. 2+ rerolls goes from 84% to 97%. 3+ Rerolls goes from 67% to 89%, 4+ goes from 50 to 75%, 5+ 33% to 55%, 6+ goes from 16 to 29% -

And now that I do the math on that, rerolls on a 5+ Overwatch isn't bad. Even on a 6+ with a big/shooty enough unit.

But if you're talking about a 2+ to hit HQ with a 1 shot pistol, they reroll less than once a game. The characters with 2+ to hit in melee feel like they should reroll 1s anyway and it comes up every other turn or so until you get to the Angron-ic flying charging battering ram types that can get into melee ever turn.

Take 10 Terminators with Power/Chain Fists and you're getting 30+ attacks, 10/15 misses before rerolls, 3.5/7.5 misses after Plus more Anti-Vehicle Crit potential and Oath +1's I didn't count. Far more units have far more models with a 3+/4+ and they get far more "bonus" hits from the rerolls because they'll likely have more rolls total, and more failures to turn into successes.

2+ isn't that common? You're in for a rude awakening when you face a Gravis marine army. An army of 2+ to hit, AP -3 (with ease) and rerolling to hit and wound.

Uptonius wrote:

Breton wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

Breton wrote:
Meh, Reroll on a 2+ or on a 6+ are not that big of a deal. That's your gut reaction, not a thought out response. Reroll hits on a 2+ to hit are rarely necessary, and will rarely influence anything. Rerolls on the 3+/4+ make the big difference. 50% hit rate becomes 75% for the 4+ for example.

You, Sir, apparently never use models that have a 2+ to hit. I routinely miss on a 2+. So much so that I assume I will miss closer to 2 in 6 rather than 1 in 6 2+ rolls. Keeps me from going crazy.

Well 2+ isn't all that common, even less so on sub-character level models. Plus you're talking about the fallacy of misleading vividness not empirical mathematics. Because missing a 2+ isn't supposed to happen often, when it does it sticks more in your memory. 2+ rerolls goes from 84% to 97%. 3+ Rerolls goes from 67% to 89%, 4+ goes from 50 to 75%, 5+ 33% to 55%, 6+ goes from 16 to 29% -

And now that I do the math on that, rerolls on a 5+ Overwatch isn't bad. Even on a 6+ with a big/shooty enough unit.

But if you're talking about a 2+ to hit HQ with a 1 shot pistol, they reroll less than once a game. The characters with 2+ to hit in melee feel like they should reroll 1s anyway and it comes up every other turn or so until you get to the Angron-ic flying charging battering ram types that can get into melee ever turn.

Take 10 Terminators with Power/Chain Fists and you're getting 30+ attacks, 10/15 misses before rerolls, 3.5/7.5 misses after Plus more Anti-Vehicle Crit potential and Oath +1's I didn't count. Far more units have far more models with a 3+/4+ and they get far more "bonus" hits from the rerolls because they'll likely have more rolls total, and more failures to turn into successes.

2+ isn't that common? You're in for a rude awakening when you face a Gravis marine army. An army of 2+ to hit, AP -3 (with ease) and rerolling to hit and wound.

I'm looking at Gravis models, and there are two with an AP better than 2.
Inceptors, Supercharged Plasma Guns.
Eradicators, any Melta.

That's it, with what we see now.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Uptonius wrote:

Breton wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

Breton wrote:
Meh, Reroll on a 2+ or on a 6+ are not that big of a deal. That's your gut reaction, not a thought out response. Reroll hits on a 2+ to hit are rarely necessary, and will rarely influence anything. Rerolls on the 3+/4+ make the big difference. 50% hit rate becomes 75% for the 4+ for example.

You, Sir, apparently never use models that have a 2+ to hit. I routinely miss on a 2+. So much so that I assume I will miss closer to 2 in 6 rather than 1 in 6 2+ rolls. Keeps me from going crazy.

Well 2+ isn't all that common, even less so on sub-character level models. Plus you're talking about the fallacy of misleading vividness not empirical mathematics. Because missing a 2+ isn't supposed to happen often, when it does it sticks more in your memory. 2+ rerolls goes from 84% to 97%. 3+ Rerolls goes from 67% to 89%, 4+ goes from 50 to 75%, 5+ 33% to 55%, 6+ goes from 16 to 29% -

And now that I do the math on that, rerolls on a 5+ Overwatch isn't bad. Even on a 6+ with a big/shooty enough unit.

But if you're talking about a 2+ to hit HQ with a 1 shot pistol, they reroll less than once a game. The characters with 2+ to hit in melee feel like they should reroll 1s anyway and it comes up every other turn or so until you get to the Angron-ic flying charging battering ram types that can get into melee ever turn.

Take 10 Terminators with Power/Chain Fists and you're getting 30+ attacks, 10/15 misses before rerolls, 3.5/7.5 misses after Plus more Anti-Vehicle Crit potential and Oath +1's I didn't count. Far more units have far more models with a 3+/4+ and they get far more "bonus" hits from the rerolls because they'll likely have more rolls total, and more failures to turn into successes.

2+ isn't that common? You're in for a rude awakening when you face a Gravis marine army. An army of 2+ to hit, AP -3 (with ease) and rerolling to hit and wound.

I'm looking at Gravis models, and there are two with an AP better than 2.
Inceptors, Supercharged Plasma Guns.
Eradicators, any Melta.

That's it, with what we see now.

I'm also looking for the 2+ to hit Gravis. They appear to need outside assistance to get there, most obviously the Incursor-OOM combo.

Breton wrote:
I'm also looking for the 2+ to hit Gravis.

Heavy Intercessors hit on 2+ if they stand still because their guns are Heavy. And they will likely stand still for the entire duration of the battle because they are super-duper-mega backfield campers now.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Breton wrote:
I'm also looking for the 2+ to hit Gravis.

Heavy Intercessors hit on 2+ if they stand still because their guns are Heavy. And they will likely stand still for the entire duration of the battle because they are super-duper-mega backfield campers now.

That's one, but still not a lot of Gravis. Some of the other BattleLine stuff can do similar, but they're also Battle Line - and even stuff like the Tactical with a Heavy in the mix usually has the Heavy as a 4+, 3+ standing still. 2+ is pretty rare, especially on the "Big Guns" so to speak.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Breton wrote:
I'm also looking for the 2+ to hit Gravis.

Heavy Intercessors hit on 2+ if they stand still because their guns are Heavy. And they will likely stand still for the entire duration of the battle because they are super-duper-mega backfield campers now.

Honestly, if I were to run them, I'd try to advance them onto an objective in no-mans land T1 and then shoot from there. You will absolutely pay for all those defensive stats and ability, and that would be wasted in a place where their most likely fate is being ignored or charged/nuked from deep strike.

Breton wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

Breton wrote:
I'm also looking for the 2+ to hit Gravis.

Heavy Intercessors hit on 2+ if they stand still because their guns are Heavy. And they will likely stand still for the entire duration of the battle because they are super-duper-mega backfield campers now.

That's one, but still not a lot of Gravis. Some of the other BattleLine stuff can do similar, but they're also Battle Line - and even stuff like the Tactical with a Heavy in the mix usually has the Heavy as a 4+, 3+ standing still. 2+ is pretty rare, especially on the "Big Guns" so to speak.

1 out of 4 is still 1 more than I'm comfortable with.

 Jidmah wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

Breton wrote:
I'm also looking for the 2+ to hit Gravis.

Heavy Intercessors hit on 2+ if they stand still because their guns are Heavy. And they will likely stand still for the entire duration of the battle because they are super-duper-mega backfield campers now.

Honestly, if I were to run them, I'd try to advance them onto an objective in no-mans land T1 and then shoot from there. You will absolutely pay for all those defensive stats and ability, and that would be wasted in a place where their most likely fate is being ignored or charged/nuked from deep strike.

I plan on running mine forward. Feirros in a 10 man with a Brutalis backing them up sounds brutal. Leave the backfield to the skinny bois.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I plan on running mine forward. Feirros in a 10 man with a Brutalis backing them up sounds brutal. Leave the backfield to the skinny bois.

Depending on the board, I was thinking of sticky capping the backfield with intercessors as a dare/trap.

Breton wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I plan on running mine forward. Feirros in a 10 man with a Brutalis backing them up sounds brutal. Leave the backfield to the skinny bois.

Depending on the board, I was thinking of sticky capping the backfield with intercessors as a dare/trap.

Yea, I love sticky. Cap the objective and then move away from them. Anything coming in from reserves should not get free movement towards the objectives and gives me a turn to respond.