Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

a_typical_hero wrote:
And then companies be like "There is a worker shortage, we can't find anyone."

The salary is insulting to be honest. That's like appropiate for a student assistant to an actual game designer.

To be fair the role isnt games designer, its developer. And knowing GW and companies of a similar ilk 'development' should probably feature 3 or 4 lines lower in the description than it does here.

Most of the role could fall under the designation of community management or outreach. Most of the trolls on the GW orderline could be considering 'developers' under this description!

The pay is crappy for a developer but not for a 'developer'.

£25K for an entry level job with no professional qualifications required, or even basic qualifications like English or maths GCSE, there’s nothing wrong with that (unless more to advert than in the OP). This is a job for a walk in off the street by the sounds of it, the trickiest requirement to fill is being an established competitive player with a winning record.

the difficult bit will be proving the analytical experience this job will require.

now someone who has been a tournament player and who has been keeping records may actually be able to show this skill

That starting salary is around or better than teachers, nurse, paramedics, all jobs where you need a degree to do them. For this job you we’d to be a Wargamer, it’s not bad really.

Only shows who else isn't get paid enough.

a_typical_hero wrote:
Only shows who else isn't get paid enough.

But I doubt GW could influence government policy on public sector pay by giving a non graduate entry level post an executive wage. Hell, 6 months of strikes by teachers, nurses, paramedics and doctors. and they ain’t budging on public sector pay.

So all in all, not a bad deal in reality.

 stonehorse wrote:
Pay for peanuts, get peanuts.

If monet wasn't an issue, and I lived in Nottingham, it'd be worth a shot.

As it is, asking to move to Nottingham on what is going to be a low to average wage... nope!

GW can afford to pay a lot more, and get better qualified/experienced people, which ultimately helps them.

They don't need super qualified to tweak rules to push what marketing department wants buffed next though.

They want enthusiastic yes-man.

Remember they don't hire for talent by own admission.

Andykp wrote:
That starting salary is around or better than teachers, nurse, paramedics, all jobs where you need a degree to do them. For this job you we’d to be a Wargamer, it’s not bad really.

I just noticed that the role does include an extra week's paid holiday and better pension benefits above what the majority of UK employers will offer.

But I still find it odd that we've had 3 pages of discussion revolve around a salary figure isn't listed in the job advert, and was sourced from "some dude on Reddit" 2-3 years ago.

tneva82 wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
Pay for peanuts, get peanuts.

If monet wasn't an issue, and I lived in Nottingham, it'd be worth a shot.

As it is, asking to move to Nottingham on what is going to be a low to average wage... nope!

GW can afford to pay a lot more, and get better qualified/experienced people, which ultimately helps them.

They don't need super qualified to tweak rules to push what marketing department wants buffed next though.

They want enthusiastic yes-man.

Remember they don't hire for talent by own admission.

I think the phrase is "policy based evidence making", someone able to provide a stats based justification for whatever the marketing boys want to do, or with the skills to tweak what is proposed to get the same end result (this is good enough competitive players rush to buy it) without being quite so game breaking if we are lucky

I mean if you go from "easy mode" broken rules to stuff thats just as powerful but needs a more skilled player to make it work I'd call that a win, and they will still sell loads, likely the same as people rush to the latest netlist before realising the change

 xttz wrote:

Andykp wrote:
That starting salary is around or better than teachers, nurse, paramedics, all jobs where you need a degree to do them. For this job you we’d to be a Wargamer, it’s not bad really.

I just noticed that the role does include an extra week's paid holiday and better pension benefits above what the majority of UK employers will offer.

But I still find it odd that we've had 3 pages of discussion revolve around a salary figure isn't listed in the job advert, and was sourced from "some dude on Reddit" 2-3 years ago.

Some dude on reddit is the best we have because GW does not list salaries as per their own FAQ:

We want people to apply for a job because that’s what they really want to do, not because of the size of the salary. That’s also why we ask you to write a letter explaining why you want the job.

https://jobs.games-workshop.com/application-process/faq

While that in itself is not unusual, it kind of limits the basis on which we can discuss

Tsagualsa wrote:


Some dude on reddit is the best we have because GW does not list salaries as per their own FAQ

It's not the best we have though; there's a quote from James Hewitt on the first page of the thread regarding two studio members getting paid more in 2017.

have seen various companies who think they are being clever not listing a salary or salary range

they are not, list the salary range and:

- people who obviously lack the experience for a position that senior don't apply
- people who are obviously far more experienced for a position that senior don't apply
- you don't waste your and the applicants time

last place I worked at tried that, I put my phone number on the salary box

I actually got the job because they phoned me, I noted to move roles I wanted what I was on, and then an increment above it.

its also a way to manage expectations

 xttz wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:


Some dude on reddit is the best we have because GW does not list salaries as per their own FAQ

It's not the best we have though; there's a quote from James Hewitt on the first page of the thread regarding two studio members getting paid more in 2017.

I know, it was me who quoted it

 xttz wrote:

Andykp wrote:
That starting salary is around or better than teachers, nurse, paramedics, all jobs where you need a degree to do them. For this job you we’d to be a Wargamer, it’s not bad really.

I just noticed that the role does include an extra week's paid holiday and better pension benefits above what the majority of UK employers will offer.

But I still find it odd that we've had 3 pages of discussion revolve around a salary figure isn't listed in the job advert, and was sourced from "some dude on Reddit" 2-3 years ago.

That’s a very good point, could be a six figure salary for all we know! All moot really. Good luck to whoever gets the job and I hope they enjoy it.

Good luck indeed. Theres something to be said about Jobs/money, not everyone wants the same thing and for many having a job that makes you happy and feel good can be as important has high payed jobs.

Extensive experience playing Warhammer 40,000 in a competitive tournament environment, with a demonstrated winning track record.

I wonder if GW will 'let' this person continue to enter tournaments, or if they want them to go to events as their "knowledgeable and approachable ambassador"...?

(Which can you learn more from - playing in a a tournament, or watching a tournament?)

Why wouldn't they be allowed to enter a tournament? It's not like they have cheat codes or reality-warping powers to force the dice to roll the way they want.
At best they'll have a better grasp on new rules updates for the first few (if that) tournaments within a given cycle.

 Gert wrote:
Why wouldn't they be allowed to enter a tournament? It's not like they have cheat codes or reality-warping powers to force the dice to roll the way they want.
At best they'll have a better grasp on new rules updates for the first few (if that) tournaments within a given cycle.

Because advance knowledge of changes is a huge advantage, and because if you're still able to play competitively you have the temptation to use your official role to keep your preferred army in the top tier instead of being a genuinely neutral party. There's a reason serious competitive games like MTG have a policy that once you are hired you can only participate in the most casual tier of tournaments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:
That starting salary is around or better than teachers, nurse, paramedics, all jobs where you need a degree to do them. For this job you we’d to be a Wargamer, it’s not bad really.

Really? Because 25k GPB translates to about $15/hour and even a lot of fast food and retail jobs pay better than that. Here that would be an absolute joke of a salary offer for anything with qualifications beyond being a warm body without too many felonies on your record.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Why wouldn't they be allowed to enter a tournament? It's not like they have cheat codes or reality-warping powers to force the dice to roll the way they want.
At best they'll have a better grasp on new rules updates for the first few (if that) tournaments within a given cycle.

Because advance knowledge of changes is a huge advantage, and because if you're still able to play competitively you have the temptation to use your official role to keep your preferred army in the top tier instead of being a genuinely neutral party. There's a reason serious competitive games like MTG have a policy that once you are hired you can only participate in the most casual tier of tournaments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:
That starting salary is around or better than teachers, nurse, paramedics, all jobs where you need a degree to do them. For this job you we’d to be a Wargamer, it’s not bad really.

Really? Because 25k GPB translates to about $15/hour and even a lot of fast food and retail jobs pay better than that. Here that would be an absolute joke of a salary offer for anything with qualifications beyond being a warm body without too many felonies on your record.

yeah £25K is pretty good for starting salary in the UK if you are not a professional - many people earn less.

Obviosuly we get stuff over here that I donlt think people in the US get - like 33 days paid holiday a year.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Why wouldn't they be allowed to enter a tournament? It's not like they have cheat codes or reality-warping powers to force the dice to roll the way they want.
At best they'll have a better grasp on new rules updates for the first few (if that) tournaments within a given cycle.

Because advance knowledge of changes is a huge advantage, and because if you're still able to play competitively you have the temptation to use your official role to keep your preferred army in the top tier instead of being a genuinely neutral party. There's a reason serious competitive games like MTG have a policy that once you are hired you can only participate in the most casual tier of tournaments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:
That starting salary is around or better than teachers, nurse, paramedics, all jobs where you need a degree to do them. For this job you we’d to be a Wargamer, it’s not bad really.

Really? Because 25k GPB translates to about $15/hour and even a lot of fast food and retail jobs pay better than that. Here that would be an absolute joke of a salary offer for anything with qualifications beyond being a warm body without too many felonies on your record.

Yep, looked it up and everything before I posted.

Andykp wrote:
Yep, looked it up and everything before I posted.

Weird. But I guess if they're content with limiting themselves to a UK applicant pool and accepting that nobody in the US will consider such a low offer something in that range might work. Seems like a pretty bad way to hire though, given GW's annual profit margins vs. the cost of bringing salaries for key roles up to a level where they can attract their choice of talent.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Yep, looked it up and everything before I posted.

Weird. But I guess if they're content with limiting themselves to a UK applicant pool and accepting that nobody in the US will consider such a low offer something in that range might work. Seems like a pretty bad way to hire though, given GW's annual profit margins vs. the cost of bringing salaries for key roles up to a level where they can attract their choice of talent.

Im paramedic by trade myself so won’t be telling the successful global company how to run its business because I know one thing for sure, they would be dog dirt if I was in charge, can barely manage my own finances.

But as that job goes, if the salary is that, £25 grand a year to dick about and write missions for 40K, hell yeah.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Yep, looked it up and everything before I posted.

Weird. But I guess if they're content with limiting themselves to a UK applicant pool and accepting that nobody in the US will consider such a low offer something in that range might work. Seems like a pretty bad way to hire though, given GW's annual profit margins vs. the cost of bringing salaries for key roles up to a level where they can attract their choice of talent.

Well yeah, it's based in Nottingham so I think they are looking at UK applicants. Wages are generally higher in the US, but the cost of living is much higher too, and holiday allowance much worse.
You can cut out any costs for health insurance for a start.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Yep, looked it up and everything before I posted.

Weird. But I guess if they're content with limiting themselves to a UK applicant pool and accepting that nobody in the US will consider such a low offer something in that range might work. Seems like a pretty bad way to hire though, given GW's annual profit margins vs. the cost of bringing salaries for key roles up to a level where they can attract their choice of talent.

Relocation to Nottingham is needed, whilst it might appear unreasonably low to a US applicant, there's a lot of stuff you won't have to pay for that you would back home, such as health care, a centralised body that do taxes for you, greater annual leave and parental rights etc.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:
Because advance knowledge of changes is a huge advantage, and because if you're still able to play competitively you have the temptation to use your official role to keep your preferred army in the top tier instead of being a genuinely neutral party. There's a reason serious competitive games like MTG have a policy that once you are hired you can only participate in the most casual tier of tournaments.

Considering how quickly 40k players seem to break new rules or army books, I seriously doubt that. I mean it took what all of 12 hours for people to find the most utterly busted 10th combos from the second the Index cards dropped?
And with regard to keeping one army in a top tier, because they prefer it, that's going to get caught pretty damn quickly. It's also not like this is the only person doing this job and there will be oversight from a senior team member. It's not like the rules team is just going to let whoever gets this job do whatever they want when they want with zero oversight or checks.
All that being said, I'm fairly certain there will be some sort of caveat for whoever does this job that they can't participate in X, Y, Z tournaments, likely those that are associated with GW for example. We know that GW staff can only ever enter the Open Category for Golden Demon, for example.

Even if there's no actual advantage, it still leaves a sour taste in some people's mouths and experience if "guy who designed game wins big event" happens.

 Overread wrote:
Even if there's no actual advantage, it still leaves a sour taste in some people's mouths and experience if "guy who designed game wins big event" happens.

It can be an issue if cash or cash-equivalent prizes are involved, too.

Can't see events being happy with anyone who is involved with the rules writing process entering events

now actually being at said events, monitoring, recording, and playing casual games outside the scoring system (or making up numbers as a non-scoring player perhaps) or in demo games then yes for sure

thing is to actually be able to do the job, with the requirements they have listed will require someone active on the tournament circuit, and will require them to remain so

would be harder to keep such a role secret, not impossible, but harder

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Why wouldn't they be allowed to enter a tournament? It's not like they have cheat codes or reality-warping powers to force the dice to roll the way they want.
At best they'll have a better grasp on new rules updates for the first few (if that) tournaments within a given cycle.

Because advance knowledge of changes is a huge advantage, and because if you're still able to play competitively you have the temptation to use your official role to keep your preferred army in the top tier instead of being a genuinely neutral party. There's a reason serious competitive games like MTG have a policy that once you are hired you can only participate in the most casual tier of tournaments.

Competitive gambling games like Magic can do whatever they want to appear hard core. Advance knowledge of changes is very frequently countered by having waded through all of the changes that were tried and discarded, sometimes forgetting which changes actually made it through the process.

also because virtually all sports have the distinction between those who compete and those who are part of the governing body

for better or worse all GW employees are part of the "governing body"