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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Option D?

They’re Eldar players, and with the extreme swingy history of Codex Eldar, genuinely just happened to find their long standing army suddenly ridiculously ‘ard.

Well, that certainly is not a problem at the moment!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Option D?

They’re Eldar players, and with the extreme swingy history of Codex Eldar, genuinely just happened to find their long standing army suddenly ridiculously ‘ard.

Sometimes the fluff and powercreep align.

My Eldar army has always been Saim-han themed. Getting mud on your boots is for lesser races. Very bike/mech heavy. When trying to get them to the table in 7th I had to lean on the breaks to keep the power under control and things civil for fun games. Half my tanks are falcons, not wave serpents, only 1-3 bikes has a heavy, and the are cannon not scatter lasers. Still strong, but not oppressive.

40k has always needed some negotiation to make sure everyone is on the same page about what kind of game you are looking for. No wrong way to play, but there are so many different opinions on the right way, you need to have a chat.

The Eldar "but my bike list used to be super narrative, please excuse the current cheese" would have more sympathy if A. they didn't also include two Wraithknights and B. Eldar bike spam hadn't been pretty powerful for multiple editions lol.

But in general I do hate the idea that "fluffy" and "meta" are opposite ends of a scale. In reality they're two separate scales that have little to know relation.

The best example I'm familiar with is from 30k. Back in 1.0 there was an "oops, all Dreadnoughts" formation. But since Dreadnoughts were kinda meh (but very cool and iconic) these lists were seen as really heavily fluffy because you'd basically auto-lose the second you hit the table.
Next edition Dreadnoughts got a buff to be like the pinnacle of the meta. Then literally overnight the exact same list that used to be auto-lose chad-fluffy was the cheesy-hitler list and basically a euphemism for "super dick meta" list.

Not to mention, of course, that 40k is very explicitly a very open universe. Any time GW even bothers to write "this is why X works/fights" they always caveat it with a million "this is just one example and there's huge variations etc".
So anything can be fluffy if you spend five minutes thinking about a way to justify it

I feel Eldar power has usually been sufficiently skewed that its very hard to go "woops".

I mean lets say you'd been playing mass jetbikes since 3rd edition. Well that's fine. But you obviously wouldn't have every model with a scatter laser because they didn't have that in the box. "I just really like this [clearly just purchased] collection of scatter bikes, wraithknights and 3 units of warp spiders with the +1 BS formation..."
I'm not convinced. Much like how the same person's fluffy 6th edition list probably consisted of 5-6 wave serpents.

It was like in 8th people trying to claim their Castellan Knight, Loyal 32 and 3 blinged out BA Captains was fluffy because all the characters had names. Felt like a bit of a reach.

 Jidmah wrote:
When you tell me to only play against people who don't want to paint (I do want to paint, but at my speed)

Slipspace already addressed the meat of your post very well, so I will just respond to this bit specifically by quoting yourself. Specifically, I do not mean to focus on not wanting to paint (that may have been a misexpression). I mean you do not like to paint, which you yourself expressed earlier in the thread:

 Jidmah wrote:
There is zero fun in painting for me. It's a chore, I need to highly focus over a long time period to paint models, so it's both tiring and can't be done when I'm tired for other reasons. The only reasons to do it is because I enjoy having my models painted in the way I want and not getting bullied/punished by game rules

Just making sure I am making myself clear. I am suggesting you find players of similar attitude to play with. Not in an effort to belittle or discard you, but because it is what I also do, from the opposite end of things. I have my own preferences too and I am happier following them, just as I think everyone else is following theirs. The example someone brought up about dedicated matched play gamers rejecting an unconventional narrative scenario is apt. Preferences take many forms.

kirotheavenger wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

But painting is part of the hobby core, and it always has been.

I do find this take quite strange.
Do you think games like Star Wars X-Wing, which provides pre-built and pre-painted minis is less of a wargame as a result?
The guy who can afford to get his whole army commission painted less of wargamer as a result?
In both cases the actual wargame played on the table is the equal of any game where players have painted it themselves. Often even better, as they're providing a consistent and good (or even excellent) standard of paint where a lot of self-painted armies honestly just don't look good (due to lack of time, care, experience, both or other from the player).

Perhaps one could say that "Painted Models" have always been part of the hobby. I think HG wells was playing with toy soldiers that he didn't paint himself. Nevertheless, since the emergence of "miniature wargaming" as a defined hobby in the 60s/70's, individuals painting models has been part of the hobby. That X-wing arrives painted doesn't change that history. Regardless of who painted them, X-wing models are painted. In fact I would actually see X-wing as an affirmation of the importance of wargames models being painted.

For many folks the painted world is the point and it doesn't matter who does the painting.

 Jidmah wrote:
You do realize that this is just a nice framing for "go find a corner where you don't bother me", right?

Honestly, is it such a problem if folks want to have their own corners of the hobby? It's a big hobby (and getting bigger every year) and there are tons of folks (if the local game stores and tournaments are any indication) that are willing to play with and against grey hordes.

Painting-or-not aren't the only points of differentiation either. There are competitive players who would not find playing against me (a casual, narrative gamer) to be conducive to their hobby goals and that's ok also. And that's before we consider that we already divide up based on the games we play.

Jidmah wrote:
When you normalize excluding people from one part of the hobby (gaming) for not following a relatively unrelated part of the hobby to your standards (painting), you eventually exclude them from the hobby as whole.

Not true. 2 reasons.
1) If you know your history, you know that painting is not a "relatively unrelated part of the hobby".
2) Unpainted players are not being "exclud(ed) from the hobby as a whole". I've been in this hobby for 3 decades and there have always been a significant number of folks (especially in the 40k and Warmachine spaces) who are more interested in the game than the spectacle and are fine with unpainted figs. Go find your people, there are enough of them.

Jidmah wrote:
When you tell me to only play against people who don't want to paint (I do want to paint, but at my speed), you are essentially telling me to stay away from all stores, clubs or game nights. To never play pick-up games, join crusades, tournaments, apocalypse games or leagues. Is that what you meant? if not, what did you mean?

Again, I don't think anyone is telling you this and no one means this. Go to your local store or club and you'll find plenty of opportunities to play against unpainted and partially-painted armies.

And you'll also find some folks who don't want to, and that's ok too.

If you want to game at CSW, you're perfectly welcome -and we'll provide painted miniatures if you need them- but your unpainted minis will not be on the table.
______________________________________________________

I'd like to remind those advocating for playing with/against unpainted armies that many of us are in this hobby specifically for the painted-models-and-great-terrain experience and we don't have a ton of time to wargame. It should not be surprising then, that with our limited game time we ONLY want the 100% experience. For some of us, our free time is just too limited to settle for less.

I game about twice a month and with the effort I've put into my miniatures and terrain I'm just not willing to settle for less. I think many of us feel similarly.

 Eilif wrote:
For many folks the painted world is the point and it doesn't matter who does the painting.

Funny enough, I've got a copy of White Dwarf from the late-90s or maybe early-00s in which one of the staffers (I think Jervis Johnson) wrote a short essay about why having your army commission painted is wrong, and that you should be painting your own army as an expression of your creativity and investment in it. This was someone in a senior position at GW not only saying that painted armies are essential to the experience, but that it's equally essential that you engage with that aspect of the hobby yourself.

I don't think that latter perspective is all that popular nowadays. Personally while I'd rather see a mediocre paintjob than a high quality outsourced one, I'd also rather see a commission painted army than an unpainted one. For all the ire that the 10VP rule generates, in general the hobby is a lot more tolerant than it used to be of folks who want to engage with the gameplay but not the arts-and-crafts.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
There is zero fun in painting for me. It's a chore, I need to highly focus over a long time period to paint models, so it's both tiring and can't be done when I'm tired for other reasons. The only reasons to do it is because I enjoy having my models painted in the way I want and not getting bullied/punished by game rules

Just making sure I am making myself clear. I am suggesting you find players of similar attitude to play with.

Where does one find those players if they are already participating in all larger groups and stores close to where they live?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eilif wrote:
If you want to game at CSW, you're perfectly welcome -and we'll provide painted miniatures if you need them- but your unpainted minis will not be on the table.

Don't worry, all my models are covered in paint. I wouldn't call them painted and I personally feel like they look like gak, but they will adhere to the 10VP rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slipspace wrote:
That's your locale and is likely not the reality for everyone. I think it sucks, and your gaming community sounds pretty awful if that's the attitude of all of them, TBH.

Well, just have a look at the responses in this thread. Easily half of them vary between "painting is mandatory in this hobby" to "I would refuse to play you". This is exactly what my locale is like, they are just mimicking how people act online.

 Jidmah wrote:

Where does one find those players if they are already participating in all larger groups and stores close to where they live?

The same way everyone else finds players...? You ask on social media or at local clubs and stores, and see if they're interested in the same sort of game you are.

I think you are really overcomplicating this, and in turn overworrying because of it. This is just what gaming's like.

It's not like there's no one out there who doesn't like painting. This comes up very often on reddit, so clearly there is a playerbase to find with people who just want to game and don't like to paint.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
Well, just have a look at the responses in this thread. Easily half of them vary between "painting is mandatory in this hobby" to "I would refuse to play you". This is exactly what my locale is like, they are just mimicking how people act online.

I don't see why "I would refuse to play you" is something to take so dramatically either. You might refuse to play someone who plays a different version of the game to what you are interested in, like a niche crusade campaign, an older edition, a houseruled version, and so on. So you refuse them and play someone else. And just as someone might refuse for gameplay reasons, one can also refuse for all manner of other reasons. As others in this thread have repeatedly said, no one owes anyone a game (something I've been reluctant to state this far because it inevitably sounds harsh, but it really has to be kept in mind, this is a two-way street).

 Jidmah wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
There is zero fun in painting for me. It's a chore, I need to highly focus over a long time period to paint models, so it's both tiring and can't be done when I'm tired for other reasons. The only reasons to do it is because I enjoy having my models painted in the way I want and not getting bullied/punished by game rules

Just making sure I am making myself clear. I am suggesting you find players of similar attitude to play with.

Where does one find those players if they are already participating in all larger groups and stores close to where they live?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eilif wrote:
If you want to game at CSW, you're perfectly welcome -and we'll provide painted miniatures if you need them- but your unpainted minis will not be on the table.

Don't worry, all my models are covered in paint. I wouldn't call them painted and I personally feel like they look like gak, but they will adhere to the 10VP rule.

No, your models have to be painted to THIER standards to play with them. What you've got is no better than primer to them.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
There is zero fun in painting for me. It's a chore, I need to highly focus over a long time period to paint models, so it's both tiring and can't be done when I'm tired for other reasons. The only reasons to do it is because I enjoy having my models painted in the way I want and not getting bullied/punished by game rules

Just making sure I am making myself clear. I am suggesting you find players of similar attitude to play with.

Where does one find those players if they are already participating in all larger groups and stores close to where they live?

Again, if this is your local experience, that sucks and you have my sympathies. It doesn't seem that common around the world. Anecdotally it seems more common for the "tournament play only" crowd to exclude people, from what I can tell, but I could be wrong.

 Jidmah wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slipspace wrote:
That's your locale and is likely not the reality for everyone. I think it sucks, and your gaming community sounds pretty awful if that's the attitude of all of them, TBH.

Well, just have a look at the responses in this thread. Easily half of them vary between "painting is mandatory in this hobby" to "I would refuse to play you". This is exactly what my locale is like, they are just mimicking how people act online.

By my count there are 28 individuals who've responded to this thread and 3 have said they wouldn't play against unpainted miniatures. 1 of those 3 offered to provide painted models if their opponent didn't have them. I'd dispute the idea half have said painting is mandatory. It's more like 25% at most and the most common response of that kind is more along the lines of a self-imposed restriction they don't apply to other players. Your perception doesn't match reality.

ccs wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
There is zero fun in painting for me. It's a chore, I need to highly focus over a long time period to paint models, so it's both tiring and can't be done when I'm tired for other reasons. The only reasons to do it is because I enjoy having my models painted in the way I want and not getting bullied/punished by game rules

Just making sure I am making myself clear. I am suggesting you find players of similar attitude to play with.

Where does one find those players if they are already participating in all larger groups and stores close to where they live?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eilif wrote:
If you want to game at CSW, you're perfectly welcome -and we'll provide painted miniatures if you need them- but your unpainted minis will not be on the table.

Don't worry, all my models are covered in paint. I wouldn't call them painted and I personally feel like they look like gak, but they will adhere to the 10VP rule.

No, your models have to be painted to THIER standards to play with them. What you've got is no better than primer to them.

Interesting how CCS seems to know exactly what our standards are when they've never met us. Hmmm.

As for what is painted? I have no idea the degree of hyperbole involved and if Jidmah is talking about a colored-primer-covered-model (not painted) or a 3 color tabletop job (painted).

We're actually quite tolerant of $#!77ily painted models. I'm the worst painter in our group and have got whole armies that are basically 4-5 block colors and a minwax dip. I even wrote a how-to article if anyone is looking for a fast old-school painting method:
https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/2012/01/with-liberty-and-brush-dipping-for-a/

However if someone shows up with a just-primer army then, yes, we probably have very different hobby goals and objectives.

 Eilif wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
There is zero fun in painting for me. It's a chore, I need to highly focus over a long time period to paint models, so it's both tiring and can't be done when I'm tired for other reasons. The only reasons to do it is because I enjoy having my models painted in the way I want and not getting bullied/punished by game rules

Just making sure I am making myself clear. I am suggesting you find players of similar attitude to play with.

Where does one find those players if they are already participating in all larger groups and stores close to where they live?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eilif wrote:
If you want to game at CSW, you're perfectly welcome -and we'll provide painted miniatures if you need them- but your unpainted minis will not be on the table.

Don't worry, all my models are covered in paint. I wouldn't call them painted and I personally feel like they look like gak, but they will adhere to the 10VP rule.

No, your models have to be painted to THIER standards to play with them. What you've got is no better than primer to them.

Interesting how CCS seems to know exactly what our standards are when they've never met us. Hmmm.

As for what is painted? I have no idea the degree of hyperbole involved and if Jidmah is talking about a colored-primer-covered-model (not painted) or a 3 color tabletop job (painted).

We're actually quite tolerant of $#!77ily painted models. I'm the worst painter in our group and have got whole armies that are basically 4-5 block colors and a minwax dip. I even wrote a how-to article if anyone is looking for a fast old-school painting method:
https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/2012/01/with-liberty-and-brush-dipping-for-a/

However if someone shows up with a just-primer army then, yes, we probably have very different hobby goals and objectives.

Well, you'll forgive me if from what you'd said I got the impression that you'd not be accepting of Jids self admitted, sputeful minimum effort paint jobs.
Nor my own ever (slowly) evolving zeniththel + random bits of detail WiP stuff.
And I'm willing to bet my eternal WiP stuff looks better than Jidmahs.

ccs wrote:
[

Well, you'll forgive me if from what you'd said I got the impression that you'd not be accepting of Jids self admitted, sputeful minimum effort paint jobs.
Nor my own ever (slowly) evolving zeniththel + random bits of detail WiP stuff.
And I'm willing to bet my eternal WiP stuff looks better than Jidmahs.

All is well.
I suspect anything you and Jid paint is as good or better than my paintwork. I've got the supplies and do hope at some point to learn Zenithal and slapchop/contrast paints, but for now I'm still doing block paints and dip.

Check these guys out....
https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/2017/05/runewars-daqan-army-finished/

Process:
Green Hardware Store Spray Paint
Sliver paint pen for metal
Paint on Brown, and flesh and ivory block colors plus colored plumes.
Decal shields
Minwax dip
Matte Varnish
Tan Drybrush

Since the article was done I added the tan drybrush and the final result is below. No awards to be won, but it's easy and looks great on the tabletop from a couple feet away.

I'm a stickler for painted minis, but I do want folks to realize that tabletop standard minis are great and generally easy to do.