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@deFlo. In game 5 you sent the furies up the middle on turn one. How did you do that? Did you somehow start the game with summoned demons on the table? Did you go with the demon-icon and release them on turn 1? If so, didn't your opponents freak out? That tactic is controversial in it's interpretation at best and illegal at worst.

Darrian

Posted By deFl0 on 07/20/2006 4:04 PM
My name is Peter de Florio, I'm a warmonger and I won the Necro. I also won best general in Baltimore and 2nd best general in Boston. I'd like to set the record straight. Not because I have too but because I want set a good example, as winners and vetean palyers should win gracefully.

I did not use loaded dice. After game five I was immediately apporached by the judges and and they asked me if I used loaded dice and I said no. They believed me because of the surprized look I had on my face. That said, I didn't want anybody to have any doubt in their mind so I asked them if they would check my dice just to set the record straight. They did and they concluded that there was no doubt in their mind that they were legitamate dice.

I'm guessing they believed you when they checked the dice.

 

Obviously your account differs from the origional posters and adds the opposite view from someone who was there. The player who tanked your scores at the end based on rolling is a jerk if that was the case and it's glad to see that you can calmly defend yourself without resorting to insults and aren't obviously offended by misinformed people on the internet. Congratulations on your placement.

Hey deflo,

I'm the guy that played the Ultramarines and won the best army. Let it be known that I thought your army was rad and had a blast meeting and conversing with you for the short time we did. Again, congrats on the win. Also tell Ed, that I'm not quiet the d*ck he thinks I am and if you remember I was one of the first to congratulate you on you win after the awards were passed out. I have no opinion on the matter that went down after game 5 as I wasn't there. I found out about the concerns that were raised afterward over dinner with the event staff, but I chose not say anything or form an opinion since no evidence was found to prove anything one way or another. I believe that whatever happened was resolved fairly by the judges and life goes on. Hopefully your view of Florida gamers isn't as negative as Ed's appears to be. FYI, I'm orginally from Wisconsin and don't consider myself a Florida gamer anyways (not in the truest sense). I'll always be a Midwesterner gamer no matter where I go.

Capt K

I am the player who played peter in the 5th round and I'd like to set a few things straight.

Posted by Peter: I did not use loaded dice.

I was not the only one who thought that something odd was going on. Others had approached me as well as the gentleman watching our game.

Posted by Peter: After game five I was immediately apporached by the judges and and they asked me if I used loaded dice and I said no. They believed me because of the surprized look I had on my face. That said, I didn't want anybody to have any doubt in their mind so I asked them if they would check my dice just to set the record straight. They did and they concluded that there was no doubt in their mind that they were legitamate dice.

You are correct in that the dice they checked were not loaded.

Posted by Peter: I dropped almost all the skimmers with shooting.

This above post was in regards to Michael's game. I find it hard to belive that you dropped all of his skimmers to shooting considering what little shooting you had in your list.....did I miss something? When mike told me of his loss I asked how in the world you had beat his skimmers. When he said in close combat I was extremely surprised...He didn't mention shooting as you claim and as far as I can remember you only had a defiler and obliterator as the only serious range threats.

Posted by Peter: Against Biel tann Eldar, the entire game was way to intense than it needed to be.. I mean this in the most sporting way possible,

Please, don't sugar-coat it for my sake or anyone elses.

Posted by Peter: but you beat yourself.... The beil tann army was deployed in a long line across the deployement zone.

Wherever I deployed you would be able to reach me with the summoned damons on turn one and of course like with mike you rolled a 6' for initiative. My deployemnt hardly mattered in this so don't make it into something. I certainly didn't beat myself. I'd say it had alot more to do with insanely freakish dice rolls.

You also had this to say of michael's deployment: Micahel has the unfourtune luck to drwa me on a mission were his deployment zone was 12" by 36". I had a very target rich enviroment.

So if I deploy in a line accross the board or bunch up it's pretty much the same eh?

Posted by Peter: Turn one I sent thefuries down the middle and they dropped 2 vypers in hth. 30 S5 attacks has a fairly good chance of doing that.

I expect to lose vypers. Once again it was your abundance of 6's

Posted by Peter: The you took the bait. You unloaded everyone out of their transports and attacke the furies, clustering the entire army with assault range of all my deamons, powerfists, aspiring campions and big guys.

I didn't just take the bait. I unloaded the dire avengers to shoot the furries. They aren't good for much of anything else and I wanted them to occupy your troops. The scorpions are made to kill them just fine. They would have been ejected along withthe banshees anyways as you dropped both of those skimmers  with a boatload of 6's

Posted by Peter: Yes, I did roll a little better than average. 

A little better than average? I'd say that's the understatement of the century. As I said before I wasn't the only one who saw this.

Posted by Peter: You should ahve scattered with the tanks, softerned up my army then attacked. Instead you left your troops out there to get slaughtered.

Soften up your army? Can't be done with rolls like yours. I didn't start having any success with that until after the 4th round when I made the comment about perhaps using your dice to roll with. My troops would have been slaughtered regardless.

Posted by Peter: A word of advice, score person fairly in the last game. Then go tell a judge to check their dice. You chipmunked me in the championship game.

I did score you farily and most certainly did not "chipmunk" you. Did I give you top marks? No but they certainly were not on the bottom so feel free to check with the judges on that.

Also, for the record I did not go to the judges. I happened to talk with another party and it seems there were others who shared my sentiments that perhaps something wasn't right. That person in turn went to Jason and he approached me. I told him that it didn't matter and the game was already done with. Could I prove anything? No. But he wanted to go off on some crusade and make it an issue.

A little piece of advice. Like you, I have played this game for a very long time (18+ years) so this ain't my first rodeo. I'm glad that you listed your street creds on the tourneys you've won and believe me I have a ton of them as well for GW games as well as other systems. However, any time that you combine freakishly good luck with a pool of different coloured dice that you choose from differently & deliberatly for attack or defense will set off flags. If someone told me ahead of time that you would beat both mike's and my list back to back I would never have believed it as I eat those type lists with mine. It is lists like yours that force me to play with a mech list in the first place.

Posted by Peter: The judges would have done that if they found that I was cheating.

Ask the judge. He will tell you that I didn't want this to happen. I can certianly suspect you especially if I'm not the only one doing so. It was mainly the look on your face when I made the comment on rolling your dice...

Why didn't I press the issue if I really suspected something? For starters I wasn't 100% sure and with something like this you have to be 100% sure. I did not want to come off as being an *donkey*because that is not how I am. It ended up that way anyways but I take consolation in the fact that I am not alone.

Posted by Peter: Especially, since you didn't just zero me on sports but also comp and painting,

I certainly did not do this. You wouldn't have gotten the scores that you did with me doing that. You scored: Sportsmanship (42) Composistion (36) Appearnace (40)   these are the scores listed on the website. With these in front of you are you still trying to convice others that I tanked your scores??? I suppose that I could argue that you must have tanked MY scores as I only received a (31) in appearance despite everyone complimenting me on my army.

Posted by Peter: even after you said to your friend during the game it wasn't the list, it was the rolling.

It certainly was your rolling. No use pretending it was anything other than that.

Posted by Peter: I really had a great time in all the games, but the last, which was a little too intense and not fun enough. I get it though, if you though tyou were being cheated you thought you were being cheated.

It isn't hard to see why some one might think that with what has already been outlined. As a player overall I think you were a nice guy. However, that becomes overshadowed by the circumstantial......that's plenty enough to convict people sometimes right?

I wish you would define this "intense" you refer to. Was it beacuse I didn't like the idea that you wanted to fly your bloodthirster which you summoned into the middle of a close combat directly out of it to engage something else?

Posted by Peter: All in all, I don't look back on this tournament and see that I was increadably lucky. I see that I had luck at important moments, and sometimes that's what really makes the difference.

Both of your last opponents seem to disagree about your luck. It seemed extremely consistent and not just when you needed. Matter of fact you only failed to hit one of my skimmers in close combat a single time in the whole game.

Posted by Peter: In all my games, I made a large bait gamble against evryone of my opponents and you all took it hook line and sinker. I'm telling you this not to be a dick but to impart some wisdom. Know the strengths of your army before you play them. Come up with a game plan and stick to the game plan.

I fully understand the strengths of my army and believe me it is VERY strong against lists like yours....barring statistical anomolies. So I give up some avengers which are cheaper than your furries. With average rolls it's no sweat at all.

Posted by Peter: I'm not sure what anyone of you were thinking playing fragile skimmer lists and charging head first into Khorne heavy, hth based chaos army.
Sometimes it's not the arrows, it's the indians.

Again, you try to misrepresent the game we played. You went first and were already on top of me. Nothing could change that. Also, I'd hardly call eldar skimmers fragile as they are among the toughest in the game. I'm sure the resident math nut (every forum has them) will be able to post the statistical probabilities of dropping them especially in close combat.

To avoid you I would have had to boost 24" around the board and not fire. Anything less and you'll be assaulting me. Considering I started my turn 150 pts in the hole it wasn't a good idea. With the statistical probabilities in mind I figured that I could safely lay into your army with my firepower. Your ability to roll as you do wether by luck or other means made it a losing proposistion.

To sum it up it never should have come to what it did. The parties involved know the truth of this. If you were not cheating then I sincerley apologize....If you were then I hope that you burn in hell. ...

 

 

Posted by: mauleed:  Can all parties involved please post their real names so that if I ever play any of you, and grind you into dust, and then you claim I had loaded my dice, we'll all know that's just an orlando 40k player thing and ignore you.

Come to the next necro event or adepticon and have Peter point me out. Better bring your A-game as I only lost to the guy who won first place. (internet thugery at it's finest)

 

I think you are childish to label a specific area for something. Should I now think that all of New York potentially uses loaded dice?

 

Lazarus

"You note shooting but I only have a summary of your list. Are your Chosen units and bikes beefed out with short range SW's?"

Sorry if I get anything wrong... For shooting he had a defiler, one obliterator, and his chosen had two melta guns. The bikes were khorne so couldn't take special weapons.

In the game against me I lost a total of 8 (out of nine) skimmers, on turn one the melta guns killed a devil fish with two penetrating hits, then on turn two the melta guns killed a hammerhead with one glancing hit, and finally on turn 6 a defiler shot killed a piranha. So he did kill 3 of my skimmers with shooting, and the other five were killed by close combat. My memory may be hazy, so I'll try to list what killed what. On turn two, the bloodletters killed a devil fish on the side, turn six plague bearers killed a piranha on the side those two I know for sure. I believe the bloodthirster killed a hammerhead or a devil fish, the daemon prince also killed a skimmer, and finally, I may be wrong so if I am sorry, the last one with a power fist from the biker champ.

Yay, finally a bigger stink than my Atlanta experience! And for less reason! Woo!

In game 5 you sent the furies up the middle on turn one. How did you do that? Did you somehow start the game with summoned demons on the table? Did you go with the demon-icon and release them on turn 1? If so, didn't your opponents freak out? That tactic is controversial in it's interpretation at best and illegal at worst

When he did it against me, I had no problem with it. I missed much of the YMDC debate so I'm not sure what conclusion dakka made of it, but I have no problem at all with a first turn daemon-icon summoning.

Lazarus, Pete won't say what a tool you are. But I will.

He beat you because you played poorly. He even pointed out one of your major errors. Your rebuttal? The dice beat you and continued insinuation that Pete used loaded dice. To make unsubstantiated claims like that may mark him a cheat (which it didn't), but it definitely marks you as an unsporting dirtbag.

You lost because you didn't play well enough. Play better next time.

You know when I'll have some respect for Orlando 40k? When one of your locals comes forward and says "fellas, you have no proof of anything, so cut it out with the wild claims." Instead we now have a whole series of Orlando gamers that like to make up fantastical stories about losing to wobbly dice instead of their own ineptitude.

 

The more you post in this thread the more you show how stupid you are.

Again, where you there? How do you know anything about what was rolled or the quality of the game being played.

Lazarus is not the type of person to make baseless accusations, and if you actually read his post you would noticed that he really didn't say anything to the judges, nor did anybody else that has been posting in this thread. Both Me_Person and Lazarus, didn't acuse Peter of anything, there where suspicions raised by other players that played him and if Lazarus did anything, all he did was express his suspicions himself to those close to him which was then brought to the judges by others.

I love the fact that you defend this person by saying that his opponents didn't "play better". You are talking about two people that won all 4 other games. That's fact, obviously they know what they are doing.

Nobody is making "wild claims". All anybody was saying before and after you joined this thread was that it was suspicious. I will say right now that early in this thread, I stuck my foot in my mouth. In my pro-Orlando enthusiasm, I posted some things that may have been out of line. But that doesn't excuse your continual childish behavior in this thread.

If anybody is the tool, and if anybody is the making baseless accusations it is you.

How can you guys still be claiming you're not making allegations?

Me_Person: "I'll always give some one the benefit of the doubt, but sometimes statistical and circumstantial evidence is just too strong..."

Me_Person: "So 5 games of such rolling makes it way too much to believe every thing was legit."

Mahu: "In my mind you where the Champion of that Tournament."

Mahu: "I am not trying to condemn the man, I am mearly saying that this all sounds highly suspicious."

Lazarus: "You are correct in that the dice they *checked* were not loaded."

I'm not even including an entire post of allegations from Me_Person. I could go on and on...

I'm hoping that this doesn't start a trend of tournament winners having to publicly defend themselves against stuff like this. Note your comments above and how you don't have a shred of evidence...not one. The only thing we have are your *perceptions* that his dice rolling was above average. And even if your perceptions are right, it STILL doesn't make someone a cheater.

You guys have made a ton of backhanded compliments along the lines of "he's a nice guy, BUT". But there's been little to no acknowledgment that the guy is a good player...just talk about lists and dice. And that's bad sportsmanship.

I'd be interesting to see if your reactions would be the same if it had been a local that won instead of an out-of-towner. How would you feel if you attended a tournament in NY, won it, and then had to defend yourself on internet forums against allegations from the NY locals that you're a cheater?

The whole thing is really shameful. I'm gonna mark Necronomicon down as an event to avoid.

Firstly, let me say I never intended this to become an argument of loaded dice and wether or not a good man used them. I know some one (probably mauleed) is going to say something along the lines of "you shouldn't of brought it up", but honestly, I didn't. Once the topic became that, my choices were to lie and say nothing was said and I wasn't suspicous, or to tell the truth that the topic came up at the tournament, and that I was honestly suspicous. Seeing as other members of dakka were at the tournament and knew of the issue, it was a lose-lose situation for me, hence why some of my early posts were trying to change the subject or drop the thread completely. This is another similar reply.

As I was trying to drop the issue, it turned away from statements of suspicion to an outright arguement that took the form of one side portraying the other as dirtbags who can't play properly so make up stuff about people cheating and label entire regions based on the innacurate actions of a few.

Deflo, the game we played was one of the best I've played, despite me getting my *donkey* handed to me every turn. I did give you full comp, sports, and painting. You were going to get my vote for favorite opponent, if not for the fact that my round 5 game was perhaps one of my top 5 favorite games ever. I'd like to appologize if any of statements (particularly the one mauleed noted) came across as directly calling you a cheater, I never meant to flat out call you such a thing. However, I admit that yes, I was suspicous and personally still am.

This issue can never truely be resolved as only one person in the entire universe knows the 100% truth, that person being deflo. In this entire debate, only a few people have been qualified to properly respond, and at that, only 2 people, Deflo and lazarus, are 100% qualified. The other few are myself, and Capt K (but only because he was there), but he obviously wants nothing to do with it, and neither do I, but I've already become part of this. Further, no one, and I mean no one, has a true unbiased opinion.

Deflo, if you in fact did not cheat then you have every right in the world to flat out hate me and so does your entire gaming club as your victory now has a stain, regardless of how small, on it. You said you dont begrudge me, and thats noble of you.

Mauleed, I know were defending a friend, a respectable action, but you really came across badly. You were basically saying that he's 100% innocent simply because you said he was, and that all 40k players in the entire State of Florida are dirtbags simply because you said we were. Yes, some of the things I listed as "facts" were not truely provable and hence not actually facts. I listed why I was suspicous, and you said why I'm a dirtbag and that deflo is innocent based purely that he's a good guy (and he is). Not to further a bad tangent, but having an arguement based purely on "he's a good guy" wont stand. How many "good guys" have committed horrible crimes? Yes, an arguement of good character does make it hard to believe some one would do something so wrong, but good character can never be used to completely clear some one's record. He was such a good guy that I had to think about it for a while before I even began to think it was possible, much less probable.

I hope this ends this mess.

Everyone in this thread needs to immediately chill out or it will be promptly locked.

I'm especially mentioning this to you Mauleed. While you may have had good reason to feel your friend was being slighted, and whether or not you feel that someone is a dirtbag beneath your notice, you still must post politely on this forum or do not post at all.

Anyone who would like to continue to acuse another poster of cheating in this tournament needs to do so via PM.

Here is another calm, rationalized post from someone very close to Pete AND who was at the tournement.

Pete did not cheat. Simple as that. What happened was that the two of you had the misfortune of playing someone who 1. Has won or nearly won best General in several other major tournements, 2. Specializes in tackling anything with a greatly unconventional list, and 3. Has insane luck in the clutch. I've played several of Pete's lists, and it really comes down to tactics against him. If you make one mistake, he'll wipe you off the board. No matter your list. Simple as that. He's far too honourable a person to win through underhanded means such as loading dice. He'll crush you fairly. He's been using those same dice at the club for as long as I remember, and never once have we ever suspected anything up with them. If I recall, a bunch of people set aside the green charity dice that we all bought and started using those for special rolls, as they seemed to have some amazing karma imbued in them. People divide dice all the time. Warhammer people can be superstitious. Jason rolled a random sampling of Petes dice (some of which I believe were clear), and nothing was discarded after the tournement. Im willing to bet that he had average dice rolling, with just some of the statistics balancing out at times when it mattered most.

 

 Congrats to you both for going 4-1, Its obvious you know what you were doing, but whether you know it or not, you probably made one minor mistake that Pete in 15+ years of playing has learned how to spot and capitalize on. When you look at the sheer number of attacks in hist list, it's really not suprising that he could take down skimmers in HTH, and dice should never be counted on to be statistically perfect. I've known Pete for quite a time now, followed his progress closely through the tournement, and hell, I probably had a chance to play him at some point (3-1-1 with Thousand Sons. I definately know what the hell I'm doing too). I'm glad that Me_Person has mostly let this go, and I really don't take this as some sort of overwhelming view of Florida gamers as a whole. The Necronomicon was a great event and I have no doubt in my mind that it was won fair and square.

George

Deflo, if you in fact did not cheat then you have every right in the world to flat out hate me and so does your entire gaming club as your victory now has a stain, regardless of how small, on it. You said you dont begrudge me, and thats noble of you.

Not to further a bad tangent, but having an arguement based purely on "he's a good guy" wont stand. How many "good guys" have committed horrible crimes? Yes, an arguement of good character does make it hard to believe some one would do something so wrong, but good character can never be used to completely clear some one's record. He was such a good guy that I had to think about it for a while before I even began to think it was possible, much less probable.

I've got to say that I find this pretty appalling and I?m amazed. A few individuals are calling into question a winner of a major Warhammer event suggesting that he?s a ?cheater? using loaded dice. You are doing so in a public forum dedicated to the game. I think every tourney player has an interest in this thread and should respond.

I?ve known Pete for years and have played next to and against him often. Pete hangs out every Thursday with 20+ other gamers in NYC and he has played in numerous 1 and 2 day events all over the country. In all this time he?s never been accused of using loaded dice. (But I guess you guys are special.)

I too will attest that he?s a ?good guy?. And my, and the rest of the Warmonger?s testimonials does and should matter. We?ve played with and witnessed him play 100?s of games. You guys are talking about 2 or 3. (But, against you guys, they must be special.)

So, Pete plays all his games with us using his stash of regular dice. He must have reserved his special ?wobbly? dice for his trip to Florida and the Necro (and his very special games against you guys.)

It seems to that he may have only brought them out a few ?special times? going back to his other dice when needed. (I too play with multiple colored dice, stacked and ?reserved? in various places for various types of die rolls. I use ?special dice? for magic for instance. Honoring Khorne, I typically use red dice while rolling my custom dice for most everything else.)

Some of you imply that you?ve seen loaded dice before. As I have not, maybe the experts amongst you could describe them a little more to me. It?s been established that loaded die ?wobble?. Are they typically made by hand or can you get them mass produced? I believe someone from Pasadena suggested that GF9 was a source? As I said, I?m just curious. I?ve played at a number of big and little events and I?ve never seen loaded dice before.

As experts in the ?statistics? field maybe you can tell me a little more about the special dice I had made for me through GF9? All of these dice with the logo are ?designed? to show the logo as a form of advertisement for the Warmongers, Flames of War, GF9 or the Chinese firm that makes them? I could use clarification on how this is done and whether or not I should get my money back. The club ordered a couple thousand die and I haven?t seen a loaded one yet or at least they?re well hidden and can?t be found statistically.

Finally, I think you all should really step back and think about what you?re suggesting and its effect on the rest of the Warhammer community. Statistics would allow that a series of opportune events can occur ? even over an extended period of time. It?s called luck or sometimes in some special situations UNBELEIVABLE #$??ING LUCK!

You?ve called someone who?s beaten you in a game of chance a cheater because he?s using loaded dice without even remotely considering how really impossible this claim is. Further, you haven?t even challenged yourselves to think outside you?re single games with Pete.

Not to further a bad tangent, but having an arguement based purely on "he's a good guy" wont stand. How many "good guys" have committed horrible crimes?

No, the fact is that the only ?crime? that?s been performed and that there is a great deal of evidence of is the content of this thread and the accusations made by a small group of very misguided and ?special? individuals. You really should be embarrassed for yourselves and the rest of the community you live in. (Hopefully, we can chalk it up to the Floridians being badly affected by the ?dangling chad? event? Or possibly just spending too much time in the sun?)

Dave Hohmann

Wobblies: are we talking dice or 19th century union organizers?

Yakface we sacrifice a 3 meat barbeque salad (mmm health food) to entice you to close this thread before it gets nasty.

...close this thread before it gets nasty

You're joking, right?

4 pages of an angry mob trying to tar and feather some guy -- one of the most amazing displays of poor sportsmanship I've ever read -- and then once character witnesses show up you want them to shut up?

The view from the outside at the shrill and veiled cries of "cheater" (loaded dice...? are you listening to yourself?) casts all of the crybabies in a pretty pathetic light.

My grandmother used to love the daytime soap operas. I wish she were still here to enjoy this...

Posted by mauleed: Lazarus, Pete won't say what a tool you are. But I will.<?

Ok. And he's not for outright lying and telling everyone that I tanked his scores with all zeroes when that is painfully obvious that it is untrue? <?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"><v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><v:path o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></v:path><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape id=_x0000_i1025 style="WIDTH: 15pt; HEIGHT: 15pt" type="#_x0000_t75" alt=""><v:imagedata o:HREF="/DesktopModules/NTForums/images/emoticons/rolleyes.gif" src="file:///C:/DOCUME~1/HP_Owner/LOCALS~1/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape>

Posted by mauleed:  He beat you because you played poorly.

Read my post again.

Posted by mauleed: You know when I'll have some respect for Orlando 40k? When one of your locals comes forward and says "fellas, you have no proof of anything, so cut it out with the wild claims." Instead we now have a whole series of Orlando gamers that like to make up fantastical stories about losing to wobbly dice instead of their own ineptitude.

I am certianly not looking for your respect and if your posts in general tell me anything then I doubt that anyone else is in general...

Posted by Mahu: Lazarus is not the type of person to make baseless accusations

Thank you. I've only had cheating come up twice in all my 18+ years of playing this game. Both times I was 100% sure and called the other player on it. Both times showed I was right and that the player was dismissed. In this case I was not 100% sure even though other players and a third part witness had the same thoughts. If you read my first post you will note that I did not want this to become an issue and that it was taken out of my hands as a choice at all.

Posted by gorgon:  I'm hoping that this doesn't start a trend of tournament winners having to publicly defend themselves against stuff like this. Note your comments above and how you don't have a shred of evidence...not one. The only thing we have are your *perceptions* that his dice rolling was above average. And even if your perceptions are right, it STILL doesn't make someone a cheater.

I don't think that this will start any sort of trend at all.  Whatever happened in the game is already past. I did not want what happened to happen.

Posted by Gorgon: You guys have made a ton of backhanded compliments along the lines of "he's a nice guy, BUT". But there's been little to no acknowledgment that the guy is a good player...just talk about lists and dice. And that's bad sportsmanship.

Bad sportsmanship to have suspicions of foul play? Even if something is completely circumstantial and it LOOKS to be one way when it really isn't it doesn't change the fact that it looked that way....and not to only one person. It also doesn't change the fact that he LIED about me tanking his scores. I can PROVE that he lied....ahnd once you start lying it tends to destroy your credibility doesn't it?

Posted by Gorgon: I'd be interesting to see if your reactions would be the same if it had been a local that won instead of an out-of-towner. How would you feel if you attended a tournament in NY, won it, and then had to defend yourself on internet forums against allegations from the NY locals that you're a cheater?

The whole thing is really shameful. I'm gonna mark Necronomicon down as an event to avoid.

If all of the events that had lead up the the suspicion it would have been no different. It wouldn't matter where you come from no lees it being New York. Hell, I'm FROM New
York.

Also, the staff that ran the event were fantastic. I think the only lack of judgement came from them approaching peter to begin with. Avoiding the Event for something like that seems childish to me but do whatever you think you need to do.

Posted by Yakface: Everyone in this thread needs to immediately chill out or it will be promptly locked.

I apologize if any of my posting has been unacceptable. I only camne on to defend myself and an irrational lumping of a whole region by an internet thug. <v:shape id=_x0000_i1026 style="WIDTH: 15pt; HEIGHT: 15pt" type="#_x0000_t75" alt=""><v:imagedata o:HREF="/DesktopModules/NTForums/images/emoticons/smile.gif" src="file:///C:/DOCUME~1/HP_Owner/LOCALS~1/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image002.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape>

Posted by Ancow: Pete did not cheat. Simple as that. What happened was that the two of you had the misfortune of playing someone who 1. Has won or nearly won best General in several other major tournements, 2. Specializes in tackling anything with a greatly unconventional list, and 3. Has insane luck in the clutch.

Posting you street or tactical credentials does nothing to prove this case one way or another. If that was the case then since I've played for over 18 years (to his 15) and I've assuredly won more tourneys in that time then I must be right. If it only takes character witnesses to convince people then I can come up with those as well.

I'd still like to see a response about me tanking his scores. THAT can be proved untrue and with that said it puts everything in a different light doesn't it?

 

Lazarus.

Posted By En Guard on 07/21/2006 12:53 PM

...close this thread before it gets nasty

You're joking, right?

4 pages of an angry mob trying to tar and feather some guy -- one of the most amazing displays of poor sportsmanship I've ever read -- and then once character witnesses show up you want them to shut up?

The view from the outside at the shrill and veiled cries of "cheater" (loaded dice...? are you listening to yourself?) casts all of the crybabies in a pretty pathetic light.

My grandmother used to love the daytime soap operas. I wish she were still here to enjoy this...

Well Yakface had requested everyone cool it.  It had cooled down, but was getting hot again.

And are you addressing me personally with this? I haven't taken a side in this and only posted to figure out a better way to take down skimmers with demons.

edited by JF

 

Nah... I've got no words against anyone personally. To me this is just entertainment -- like watching TV. I don't relate to most of the posters, so I just yell from the sidelines, like I do when I'm watching TV.

Cool on this end as well good sir.

I guess I'm annoyed as I don't have any popcorn

 

The bottomline is that any suspicious activity should be investigated by the event organizers...right or wrong....regardless of who thinks who is right. That's what they are there for. It's the fair thing to do for everybody. So at the end of the day the judges were right to make that call (despite Jame's appeal to let it go) and it turned out that no evidence could be found. Final call...dude didn't cheat.
So regardless of what anyone suspects...the dude was found legit by the organizers and that is good enough for me. The only thing that irritates me is the fact that these people (Yeah Ed, I'm looking at you) are claiming we are a bunch of crybabies and are on this personal crusade to smear this guys rep.
THAT is not true and THAT is what ultimately dragged me into this thread. If someone (anyone..even you guys if you were in their position) felt that suspicious/ foul play was at hand they should most definitely raise an issue. It is the same thing in pro sports. Officials investigate suspicions of performance enhancing drugs, regardless of whether or not everyone perceives he's a "good guy" or character witnesses, etc. It's the fair thing to do for the rest who play.
So let's call it what it is. The guy was a great player, played his a$$ off and won the whole enchilada. Now lets move on. Capt K

Bad sportsmanship to have suspicions of foul play? Even if something is completely circumstantial and it LOOKS to be one way when it really isn't it doesn't change the fact that it looked that way....and not to only one person. It also doesn't change the fact that he LIED about me tanking his scores. I can PROVE that he lied....ahnd once you start lying it tends to destroy your credibility doesn't it?

No, it's bad sportsmanship to drag someone's name through the mud on a *public* forum after someone was investigated by the judges and declared the winner. You obviously felt the need to defend your character based on some comments in this thread. Fine. Then rebut only those points, and say it's over, he's the champ and congratulations. But instead you threw some rocks of your own. If you still had suspicions without proof, that should be kept private and among your friends.

If he perceived that you tanked his scores and was wrong, isn't it possible that you perceived he was using loaded dice and are wrong? But you guys are so convinced of your rightness that you're not seeing how bad you look to everyone. If this thread gets locked, you really oughta send Yak a thank you card...

Posted by Gorgon:  If he perceived that you tanked his scores and was wrong, isn't it possible that you perceived he was using loaded dice and are wrong?

I think it was more of a retailiation to discredit me as a gamer more than anything else. Mud slinging if you will.

By his posts it sure sounded as if he was stating "fact" that I had tanked him.

Of course I (as well as others) could have been wrong which is why I didn't take action on it. As I stated before, something that was said to another in confidence was taken to the judges.

It all boils down to the fact that I'd have no reason to lie about what I perceived (as did others I might add). However, saying that I tanked his scores (0's)when it's obviously not true is a pathetic attempt and shows a little of Petes real honor I suppose. What gets me is the people willing to jump on this issue that were not even there (or that were but did not see) in regards to the alleged cheating but when there is a confirmable LIE that is an obvious and cheap attempt to discredit one of the people who suspect then no one has anything to say about it....

Pete took his shots too I might add and I'll go further to say that I never came on here and posted anything. I simply responded to what was already here.

 

Lazarus.

most players in 40k dont know what to do when hth is handed to them in the first 2 turns on a large scale. I play 35 assault marines and do very well because of this fact ,  and i know khorne bikes can do it much better.

most players take such little time in deployment which is the most immportant role of this game.

Posted by Slann: most players in 40k dont know what to do when hth is handed to them in the first 2 turns on a large scale. I play 35 assault marines and do very well because of this fact ,  and i know khorne bikes can do it much better.

Most tournament players do know.

 

Lazarus.

This is going to be my final post on the matter.

I am saying this in the most civil way possible, but this all started with one poster. He outright came against my integrety as a gamer as well as several of my friends, and I believe that we have every right to defend ourselves.

Look, this is the bottom line. There was a suspicion raised, the judges looked into it, deemed it was nothing, and gave Pete the trouphy.

It is entirely unfair to condemn the whole of Orlando 40k on this issue because of the following facts:

1) The suspicion was not brought to the judges by anybody who has posted in this thread.
2) There where 3 strangers that said something, people that nobody in this thread knows.
3) Lazarus, though he had his suspicions, even went so far as to ask the judges to not do anything because he knew that all that happens is what happened here.
4) There should be no condemnation for a person having a suspicion, nobody thinks less of Pete because of all this, and why should they, the judges ruled and that is the final say.

Now I fully admit and apologize for my statements early in this thread. I was a little to ethusiastic and posted before I though of the ramifications of my actions. I stuck my foot in my mouth and for that I am sorry (if you come to Adepticon Pete, I'll buy you a beer).

The reason for this thread excallating is due to one man. I find that sad that anybody can come on these forums and start calling people names and suddenly he is taken seriously. Maybe myself and others from this area should have taken the high road, but like Me_Person said we where placed in a Lose-Lose situation, either we lied about what happened and be accused of being "sore-losers" or we be honest and defend ourselves.

The sad part about all this, is now Orlando 40K is going to have this undeserved reputation. Honestly, I know that some people's mind will never change, and homestly I don't owe those people anything. However, if you have an open mind and you can see past the Internet Thugery and Mud Slinging, you will know that certain people's opinion of us is not true.

From what I saw the Necro was a great event. Everything I heard was that the games where friendly and that everybody had a great time. If anybody comes down next year you will find me there ready to laugh and have a great time. And as far as I am concerned that's all that matters to me.

That's Rich.

The problem isn't that you baselessly called the winner a cheat. It's that I pointed out you baselessly called the winner a cheat!

You made my day.

Now I'm not just doubting the integrity of Orlando 40k gamers, but the intelligence too.

 But please, no rebuttals. You said it was the last time you'd post.

If you honestly believe that, than there in nothing else to say.

It's sad really.

So that's the last, last time you'll post?

Ridiculous.