Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Fair enough, but if others say it can shrug off LMG or even MMG rounds then I'm inclined to agree with the majority. Being more effective against energy based weapons makes a lot of sense though. They just have the advantage that every part of the uniform is their armour, right down to their socks (probably).

Indeed. Flak armor itself doesn't need to be rigid (there are greatcoat style flak armor sets), but the best flak armor (That used by Cadians) has rigid sections.

Melissia wrote:Lexicanum itself is not a source. Much like wikipedia, it is fan-made, and many of its explanations are as well.

Not necessarily, I give an example of that.
I once changed some words on Wikipedia article, after 15 minutes it was changed back.
Later I discovered that that kind of sites have many people who's only job is to read the articles and if someone change something fix it.
And lately, they added programs that indicates when someone has been tampering with the system. Same if for the Lexicanum.
But I did sometimes read some thread that does not exist anymore ( like the sentence that "Emperor is the most powerful psyker the universe" ).

And Wikipedia's got a lot of flak shot at it for that, and has a lot of controversy about it. Lexicanum is far less reviewed. It's a fan work . It's a GOOD fan work, but it's still a fan work . A real source is better, so go look up what sources lexicanum cites, read them, then cite those sources instead.

Lexicanum cites sources at the bottom of the page.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:Lexicanum cites sources at the bottom of the page.

And yet, not everything on Lexicanum actually comes from the sources it cites.

Every post is written by a different person so personal opinions and interpretations apply for Lexicanum just like any post on Dakka.

As a side note:

"Comprised of layers of impact-absorbent and ablative material, Flak Armour is effective against small arms, shrapnel, and blasts." from Dark Heresy. DH uses a different style of armor penetration than tabletop, where armor penetration reduces the amount of protection the armor gives, instead of the more flat system used in tabletop. Guard Flak Armor gives protection even against heavy stubbers in this game as well, and this is with a D100 system.

And that even includes the fact that heavy stubbers have notably better penetration than an autogun with special armor piercing ammunition.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
They were reffered to as Guardsmen throughout, and the IG codex notes that conscripts don't receive that title until they've earnt it.

You're thinking of Whiteshields which are Cadian youth brigades, that are often dragged into combat when needed. Regular conscripts would indeed be called Guardsmen.

They'd have to be extremely poor quality for the Imperium to notice, and even then...

You going to take that risk?

Another point I disagree on. Western troops in and of themselves are not overly impressive. They owe much of their credence to air support and a great deal of firepower behind them.

Seriously, look these guys up. I thought the website was bullshitting me until I looked it up.
http://www.badassoftheweek.com/gurung.html

Western troops are often considered the best based on both their equipment and their training. Sure if you took a standard US Army grunt, gave him a knife and put him in the ring with a Kenyan grunt, the American would have no appreciable advantage, except maybe training in hand to hand combat. However, take a US Army company with its attendant weapons and equipment and put it up against a Kenyan company, and the AMerican company will kick ass and take names. You're right in that basic troops aren't much different, however they do have the best equipment and the best training since their militaries have the most money.

I have never seen this website before, this is amazing. I knew Gurkha's were awesome but this is a whole new level of badassery.

Now, Guardsman would only have a trouble with this:

The AK47 is dainty compared to the ruggedness of the Autogun or Lasgun, and has inferior firepower and rate of fire to both.

Melissia wrote:The AK47 is dainty compared to the ruggedness of the Autogun or Lasgun, and has inferior firepower and rate of fire to both.

But it has some equal attributes. Easy to maintain, produce, hand and it has powerful attack.
If I had to equip our troops to fight against IG - I would gave them AK-47.

Brother Coa wrote:

Melissia wrote:The AK47 is dainty compared to the ruggedness of the Autogun or Lasgun, and has inferior firepower and rate of fire to both.

But it has some equal attributes. Easy to maintain, produce, hand and it has powerful attack.
If I had to equip our troops to fight against IG - I would gave them AK-47.

I'd give them white flags, except that the Guard doesn't know what "surrender" means.

Brother Coa wrote:

Melissia wrote:The AK47 is dainty compared to the ruggedness of the Autogun or Lasgun, and has inferior firepower and rate of fire to both.

But it has some equal attributes. Easy to maintain, produce, hand and it has powerful attack.
If I had to equip our troops to fight against IG - I would gave them AK-47.

No, it doesn't have equal attributes to the lasgun. This has been covered so many time now.

Melissia wrote:The AK47...has inferior firepower and rate of fire to both.

Cite, please? Honestly, you keep saying that the Autogun has superior hitting power, but what is your evidence? Also, where do you get a superior rate of fire from?

How is this discussion still going?
The modern day army would clearly lose, as it does not have the extra 30,000 or so years of technological advancement that the Imperial Guard does.
Even if, at a stretch, the technology was comparable, which I'll grant that in the most advanced cases it almost is, the IG has sheer weight of numbers on it's side. Modern armies would struggle to field hundreds of millions of soldiers in a single warzone.

iproxtaco wrote:
No, it doesn't have equal attributes to the lasgun. This has been covered so many time now.

Lasgun is easy to maintain, use, train with and it has average damage with excellent accuracy.
AK-47 is easy to maintain, train with, use, it has excellent damage with average accuracy.

Of course the Lasgun is more advanced - but it is clear where they get the idea from...

Ogiwan wrote:

Melissia wrote:The AK47...has inferior firepower and rate of fire to both.

Cite, please? Honestly, you keep saying that the Autogun has superior hitting power, but what is your evidence? Also, where do you get a superior rate of fire from?

Because it has a superior caliber size. Not necessarily THAT much superior (slightly over 8mm, as opposed to 7.62mm) mind, but still.

As for its rate of fire, that one's simpler. The AK47 is not caseless, while the Autogun is. Removing the need to dispose of spent bullet casings after each shot dramatically speeds up the rate of fire and reduces the chance of a jam. And unlike our caseless technology, theirs is much safer and much less prone to becoming unreliable in non-ideal situations such as high-temperature locations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
No, it doesn't have equal attributes to the lasgun. This has been covered so many time now.

Lasgun is easy to maintain, use, train with and it has average damage with excellent accuracy.
AK-47 is easy to maintain, train with, use, it has excellent damage with average accuracy.

Of course the Lasgun is more advanced - but it is clear where they get the idea from...

The lasgun does superior damage to an AK47. It disembodies limbs regularly in the lore...

Melissia wrote:The lasgun does superior damage to an AK47. It disembodies limbs regularly in the lore...

I never said it isn't - I am just saying where did they get idea for Lasgun...

Brother Coa wrote:I never said it isn't

You strongly implied it.

Brother Coa wrote:Lasgun [...] has average damage with excellent accuracy.
AK-47 [...] has excellent damage with average accuracy.

Melissia wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:I never said it isn't

You strongly implied it.

Brother Coa wrote:Lasgun [...] has average damage with excellent accuracy. ( average in 40k, very powerful against 2k )
AK-47 [...] has excellent damage with average accuracy. ( powerful against 2k, next to useless compared to 40k )

Fixed

Maybe I have said in the past something outrage, but I am not that stupid.

Brother Coa wrote:

Melissia wrote:The lasgun does superior damage to an AK47. It disembodies limbs regularly in the lore...

I never said it isn't - I am just saying where did they get idea for Lasgun...

Are you actually suggesting that they got the idea of a lasgun by looking at the AK-47?

Oh, the concept of the lasgun is similar to that of the AK probably.

The two look more like thus (lasgun and autogun, respectively), not really that much like an AK.

The barrel of the auto gun is visually reminiscent of the AK-47 to be honest....

Nerivant wrote:
Are you actually suggesting that they got the idea of a lasgun by looking at the AK-47?

No, I just say where did they get an idea, and you have Lasgun that looks like AK-47 ( Imperial Munitorium Manual, page 60 ).

Looks something like this:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Faz5KdvjyHo/S70k-uQBS_I/AAAAAAAAAC0/Uju1hXSmbaU/s1600/Ruus+tanker.jpg

ChrisWWII wrote:The barrel of the auto gun is visually reminiscent of the AK-47 to be honest....

It doesn't to me looking at the two side by side. There are some superficial similarities, but I could say the same about the autogun and the XM8 as well. Or... pretty much almost any other modern firearm really.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You can have a lasgun that looks like anything really. In Dark Heresy,one of my characters had a lasgun that looked like a Garand. And a hand cannon that looked like an M1911A1.

hemingway wrote:IG wins. Better weapons, better tech and a lifetime of nothing but war.

,,,the life time of war does NOT apply to ever single guardsman ever to don a uniform, if that's what you mean.

And water and dirt have almost no effect on dragonskin, it is only heat that is able to affect the adhesive holding the scales in place.

And also, If were comparing it to flak armour, then we have to have both of the same type: either we consider both full-body, or both vest.

If the dragonskin were to be applied to a full body suit, it would offer MUCH more protection, considering that the reason it is so amazing is that it spreads the kinetic energy, this effect would be amplified (squared rather than multiplied) for every inch more that it covers.

As to the railrifles, the logistics would be the easy part. All you need are well shaped magnetic bullets, as opposed to bullets filled with explosive powder, which also frees up more room for ammunition.

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
No, it doesn't have equal attributes to the lasgun. This has been covered so many time now.

Lasgun is easy to maintain, use, train with and it has average damage with excellent accuracy.
AK-47 is easy to maintain, train with, use, it has excellent damage with average accuracy.

Of course the Lasgun is more advanced - but it is clear where they get the idea from...

You say they have EQUAL attributes when clearly, the lasgun is generally superior. Its easier to maintain, easier to train with, has better damage with better accuracy.

iproxtaco wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
No, it doesn't have equal attributes to the lasgun. This has been covered so many time now.

Lasgun is easy to maintain, use, train with and it has average damage with excellent accuracy.
AK-47 is easy to maintain, train with, use, it has excellent damage with average accuracy.

Of course the Lasgun is more advanced - but it is clear where they get the idea from...

You say they have EQUAL attributes when clearly, the lasgun is generally superior. Its easier to maintain, easier to train with, has better damage with better accuracy.

...Well the accuracy thing is debatable...