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Whenever I have been pulled over they always ask for license and registration. That is standard operating procedure.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:You can't compare US cops actions to other countries because of one simple reason.... US citizens carry guns around with them as a regular thing.

The assumption in every other country is that the person you are talking to doesn't have a gun on their person, if they do they're already doing something wrong, the very fact they have a gun is enough to know they're doing something illegal.

In the US cops have to be under the assumption that the person they're approaching probably has a gun and they may have it legally or not.

It completely changes the tone of any encounter.

Having a gun here in Germany doesn't automatically mean you are doing something illegal, it's just that the hurdles for gun ownership are much higher than in the USA. And as far as I know US gun ownership heavily localised, depending on region and most people don't even own a gun. The stats about gun ownership are heavily skewed by some people owning multiple guns.

Here's the stuff I'm though about when I mentioned that I think their training is lacking: Just recently, a teenager dies because an office is scared by an aggressive dog, or how about that one dude a few years ago who killed a cop (if I remember correctly) and then had a car chase and a standoff in his house/cabin and the local police riddled a random car (not even fitting the suspect's car's description, wrong colour or something like that) and injured two asian women (I think the suspect was a black man). These types of overreactions are way too common.

I already mentioned in in the post you replied to that there may be reasons for why the police in the US has to consider certain different circumstances (didn't want to edge too close to "general US politics" again) but that still doesn't mean that their training is good. Even in the recent terror attacks over Europe the police was not willing to just shot as freely as the US police is in supposedly everyday situations. And I would postulate that a "terrorist attack with unknown number of attackers, locations, and types and number of weapons in confusing circumstances" can be considered a higher risk than a "random traffic stop".

 Easy E wrote:
Whenever I have been pulled over they always ask for license and registration. That is standard operating procedure.

I've only had a few times where they haven't, and those were just fishing attempt (guy with long hair and a old, beat-up car, must be weed!).

Mario wrote:
Having a gun here in Germany doesn't automatically mean you are doing something illegal, it's just that the hurdles for gun ownership are much higher than in the USA. And as far as I know US gun ownership heavily localised, depending on region and most people don't even own a gun. The stats about gun ownership are heavily skewed by some people owning multiple guns.

My understanding is that in Germany carry permits are extremely rare and typically only given to security and even then not your average security but the ones who are guarding something worth stealing.

These types of overreactions are way too common.

Cops make mistakes the world over, it's just the mistakes of American cops tend to be a bit more likely to end up in someone dead*** because there's guns everywhere

***including the cop themselves... the number of cops killed in the US is massively higher than other western countries as well.

Even in the recent terror attacks over Europe the police was not willing to just shot as freely as the US police is in supposedly everyday situations.

I think it depends on the situation, and I'd suggest as/if terrorist attacks become more prevalent in Europe and if you start to see on the order of the same number of Police being killed in Euope, in turn European police will get increasingly trigger happy as well. At least IMO.

And I would postulate that a "terrorist attack with unknown number of attackers, locations, and types and number of weapons in confusing circumstances" can be considered a higher risk than a "random traffic stop".

At a guess I'd suggest more cops are killed in random traffic stops in the US than terrorist attacks in Europe. Just a guess.

On the one hand you have stuff like Castile, on the other you have stuff like this (warning, graphic)....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1150706/WARNING-GRAPHIC-Police-officer-shot-dead-Vietnam-veteran.html

So the claims of police officers killed...is that per capita or overall?

And still the chance of anything happening to an officer is incredibly small. They accepted that they are going into a job that has a small chance of a hazard. That means they need to use their training to not unneccesarily escalate a situation. Currently cops in the US are trained to use fear and intimidation. This is not an effective way to police a populace.

I've said this before but here in Northern Ireland the police are able to do their jobs effectively without resorting to fear and intimidation. And this is a place where there is a minority out to kill them at every opportunity. Up to planting bombs in their cars or luring them out to fake emergencies to shoot at them. So it is possible to still go softly softly in a dangerous environment.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
My understanding is that in Germany carry permits are extremely rare and typically only given to security and even then not your average security but the ones who are guarding something worth stealing.

Here's a overview, essentially if a gun is necessary you can get one (and that includes competitive shooting/members of registered gun clubs) and with some restrictions (mentally stable, reliable, no criminal record) There's more if you want to read the wikipedia entry. I don't need a gun and have no detailed knowledge about that stuff but getting a gun permit appears to be about as hard to get as a driver's license (understandable, in my opinion, as it's a huge responsibility).

Cops make mistakes the world over, it's just the mistakes of American cops tend to be a bit more likely to end up in someone dead*** because there's guns everywhere

***including the cop themselves... the number of cops killed in the US is massively higher than other western countries as well.

The police is even a danger to itself, from the article:

According to a department summary of the incident released later Thursday, two officers who encountered the armed off-duty officer ordered him to the ground. He complied. When they recognized the off-duty officer, they told him he could stand up and walk toward them.

Another officer just arriving at the scene saw the off-duty officer get up and, not knowing he was an officer, fired his weapon once at the man. He hit the off-duty officer in the arm, the department said.

I think it depends on the situation, and I'd suggest as/if terrorist attacks become more prevalent in Europe and if you start to see on the order of the same number of Police being killed in Euope, in turn European police will get increasingly trigger happy as well. At least IMO.

Here's a link for US police deaths: https://www.odmp.org/search/year (and wikipedia), To date there were 63 deaths in 2017 (of all type, including stuff like boating accidents and 9/11 related illness, about a third from gunfire; for comparison the 2016 numbers: 145, again with about a third by gunfire) and here's a list of people killed by the US police: http://killedbypolice.net/, or this one (specifically about gun deaths): 461

And I would postulate that a "terrorist attack with unknown number of attackers, locations, and types and number of weapons in confusing circumstances" can be considered a higher risk than a "random traffic stop".

At a guess I'd suggest more cops are killed in random traffic stops in the US than terrorist attacks in Europe. Just a guess.

On the one hand you have stuff like Castile, on the other you have stuff like this (warning, graphic)....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1150706/WARNING-GRAPHIC-Police-officer-shot-dead-Vietnam-veteran.html

Above's the number for police deaths in the USA until now: 63. Compare that number with how much contact the police has with the population. I have no idea how to search for that. My guess is that terrorism is still of much smaller significance (because it's really rare in developed coountries) but the police deaths are not a huge number that warrants such actions. Does this really justify this amount of excessive force? If that video justifies such an amount of police violence then I can post you multiple videos that would justify much worse than the few BLM protests that happened.

On the upside, the city of St. Anthony seems to have been straightforward about this from the start. The police chief did not defend the shooting, they fired Yanez, and they are paying a $3 million settlement to the Castile family.

It's a shame that $3 million will be coming out of the city's budget though.

 jmurph wrote:
On the upside, the city of St. Anthony seems to have been straightforward about this from the start. The police chief did not defend the shooting, they fired Yanez, and they are paying a $3 million settlement to the Castile family.

Problem is that there are likely still places that will hire Yanez as a police officer or private security firms that might hire him.

I really dont get it, I would expect that punishment/conviction for police would be harsher than the general populace because they're supposed to be to a higher standard being the ones that are entrusted to enforce laws

But they walk from charges that would put average joe in prison for life.

 jmurph wrote:
On the upside, the city of St. Anthony seems to have been straightforward about this from the start. The police chief did not defend the shooting, they fired Yanez, and they are paying a $3 million settlement to the Castile family.

Yes, they also released stop statistics right away as well.

The police department and authorities handled things fairly well. From a Public Relations standpoint they did everything right.

Just pointing something out. The driver was stoned while operating a motor vehicle. With children in the car.

Is that more or less dangerous than discharging a firearm into a motor vehicle with children in it because the driver, in keeping with the law, informed you that he had a gun?

We'll be sure to execute stoners on sight, thanks.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Just pointing something out. The driver was stoned while operating a motor vehicle. With children in the car.

And?

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Just pointing something out. The driver was stoned while operating a motor vehicle. With children in the car.

And?

[stallonevoice] I AM THE LAW [/stallonevoice]

Apparently we've hit Judge Dredd levels of police militarization and worship, where being high is seen as just reason for execution.

edit: goddamit feeder, you stole my joke

 Xenomancers wrote:
Just pointing something out. The driver was stoned while operating a motor vehicle. With children in the car.

That would only matter if it made him become agitated or non compliant. Neither is alleged or in evidence. Frankly the cop needed it, maybe he would have been calmer and not blown the guy away.

I'm baffled at the hyper Pro Drug Anti Police stance here. Apparently Dakka has quite a few criminal leaning members


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:
We'll be sure to execute stoners on sight, thanks.

I'm baffled at the hyper Pro Drug Anti Police stance here. Apparently Dakka has quite a few criminal leaning members

Want to smoke something you purchased illegally and impairs you? Detain and Ticket

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Just pointing something out. The driver was stoned while operating a motor vehicle. With children in the car.

And?

Immediate detention/jail. Same as a DUI.

So we agree it has nothing to do with making it okay to unload your weapon into a car with two other people in it, one of them being the child so endangered by pot?

 Stevefamine wrote:
I'm baffled at the hyper Pro Drug Anti Police stance here. Apparently Dakka has quite a few criminal leaning members

Yep, we're all just a cabal of criminals. Except of course there are several states where its legal now.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Just pointing something out. The driver was stoned while operating a motor vehicle. With children in the car.

Relevant quote from the lawyers involved.

Gray said that autopsy results indicated Castile has high levels of THC in his blood, the chemical responsible for marijuana’s psychological effects, and was “stoned” while driving that day. The memo said Reynolds confirmed that the two were “smokers,” had marijuana in the car and had smoked marijuana before the stop that day.

St. Anthony police officer Jeronimo Yanez is charged in the fatal shooting of Philando Castile.

RAMSEY COUNTY JAIL
St. Anthony police officer Jeronimo Yanez is charged in the fatal shooting of Philando Castile.
“The status of being stoned (in an acute and chronic sense) explains why Mr. Castile, 1) did not follow the repeated directions of Officer Yanez; 2) stared straight ahead and avoided eye-contact; 3) never mentioned that he had a carry permit, but instead said he had a gun; and 4) did not show his hands,” the memo said.

But Robert Bennett, the civil lawyer representing Castile’s mother, Valerie Castile, said Thursday the argument is invalid because “contributory negligence is never a defense in a criminal prosecution.”

The defense motion is part of a campaign to blame the victim, he said. “It’s the designed play use by the police in defending themselves any time they kill a member of the public,” Bennett said, adding that Castile was killed by bullets, not marijuana use

http://www.startribune.com/castile-s-death-prompting-justice-dept-review-of-st-anthony-police-department/406585886/

 Stevefamine wrote:
I'm baffled at the hyper Pro Drug Anti Police stance here. Apparently Dakka has quite a few criminal leaning members

Except that the drug use had zero relevance on the circumstances shooting itself, and the drugs in question are legal in many states, was legal for medical and decriminalized for recreational use in the state this took place in.

Just because the driver was doing something irresponsible doesnt excuse the officer for doing something vastly more irresponsible, with far more tragic results. Thats what people have a problem with.

Had Castile been cited or arrested for a DUI, nobody would argue thats a bad thing, and we wouldnt be having this conversation. A cop firing multiple times into a car because he's incapable of good judgement and then skating on all charges is a whole other level of problem, and indicative of a far larger issue.

Aside from the absurdity of the "he was smoking pot in front of the child which means he could be irresponsible enough to draw his gun and start shooting people in front of his child, therefore I decided to do the responsible thing and draw my gun and start shooting people in front of the child" defense, it is also worth mentioning that despite his supposed impairment he was not pulled over for any kind of impaired driving and was able to follow all relevant traffic laws up until the moment he was killed.

Stevefamine wrote:I'm baffled at the hyper Pro Drug Anti Police stance here. Apparently Dakka has quite a few criminal leaning members

I don't use drugs but It's freaking pot, not some of the stuff that makes you aggressive or agitated (somebody can probably name something that could induce such behaviour). What's the worst that can happen, besides getting shot by a prejudiced and scared cop? I don't even drink much but pot is apparently overall less damaging to society than alcohol and should technically be preferred (but it's vilified and made illegal).

And the police just killed a man, I find the idea of not wanting that to happen too often quite normal and humane.

 Stevefamine wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Just pointing something out. The driver was stoned while operating a motor vehicle. With children in the car.

And?

Immediate detention/jail. Same as a DUI.

And how would you do that to a corpse?

See the officer decided to shoot him before got far enough to assess his condition. You sound like you're trying to find any excuse to justify this killing.

I'm not sure about the state this occurred, but in NC and GA, a concealed carry permit cannot be legally exercised when you're under the influence (drugs or alcohol). If you get caught with your weapon while drinking or high you can get in serious trouble.

Maybe this a reason the NRA did not make a big deal of the the fact the victim was a concealed carry permit holder?

Sounds like a super hard reach to avoid seeing the extremely large, racist elephant in the room - but OK, sure.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
You sound like you're trying to find any excuse to justify this killing.

"The smearing of the victim/He Was No Angel" is an essential part of prominent police executions of POC.

 Ouze wrote:
Sounds like a super hard reach to avoid seeing the extremely large, racist elephant in the room - but OK, sure.

That directed at me?

If so, I would be disappointed if the NRA chose to make an issue of a similar case regarding a victim of ANY color. When engaging in an activity which is against the 'law abiding safe gun ownership' theme the NRA typically endorses, you can't really expect them to take up your case as a 'good example of a gun owning citizen'.

I just brought it up because it seems folks were wondering why the NRA did not make an issue of this case (I wondered the same thing until I found out the victim had been smoking pot).

I believe the cop fethed up massively and wish the prosecution had been able to turn that into a conviction. Totally separate issue from the NRA aspect in my mind.