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 Hulksmash wrote:

 .Mikes. wrote:
If he's credible he'll be able to tell us the names of these companies then.

Why? Honestly all he's done is provide some reasons to be wary and advised against backing this. The red flags are so riddled thru on this project that nothing surprises me about it but he's just pointed out concerns. If Duncan likely has nda's and contacts and why would he risk them for you. What honestly makes you that special?

Not saying there aren't questions which need to be answered with the project, and the same can be said with almost all KSs. However, Duncan has been the most prolific poster here since KS launch. Which is fine, but when he says he has no intention of backing it and almost every post is attacking the project or the creators directly and making claims of fact, he shloulde back it up or it raises questions about his motives.

If he knows companies who SD have approached and be turned down by he should be able to say whom. It's not difficult.

First, you should read better. He said that they haven't moved beyond the initial ask. He didn't say they were denied bubba. Also the project heads have brought this down on themselves and pardon if someone wants to make the risk clear to new potential backers for such a large sum.

Additionally since the KS started it hasn't felt like an attack when he posts. He's literally just supplied good info. I have zero interest in backing once I saw the price but as someone who has supported quite a few KS I'm interested in where this is going and the insane amount of red flags I see. Should I not throw my two cents in when I see them talking about doing these models essentially like cmon did but without anything like cmon's abilities, financials, or track record when they did similar materials?

If someone tells him something off the record, they could get in a lot of trouble if he started giving names, not to mention getting the person fired. I greatly appreciate the info he has given as it enabled me to make an informed decision.

Modo-France Mitarbeiter vor 15 Minuten

Je viens de relire les 10 dernières heures et je suis un peu triste de voir certains comportements et certaines réactions qui ne sont pas très constructives. Je doute que ces réactions sont dignes de gens qui veulent voir revenir Confrontation sur le devant de la scène. Je me trompe peut-être ou ces personnes doivent revoir leur façon de faire et de dire. Je suis là pour modérer mais je préfère la discussion et faire remonter vos informations et questions. Je compte sur vous car il y a malgré tout des gens présents qui donnent des avis très constructifs et ouverts à la discussion et au dialogue! Bonne journée à tous, je vais tacher de répondre au maximum aujourd'hui...
---
I just re-read the last 10 hours and I'm a little sad to see some behaviors and some reactions that are not very constructive. I doubt that these reactions are worthy of people who want to see Confrontation back in the limelight. Maybe I'm wrong, or they have to go back and do their thing. I am here to moderate but I prefer the discussion and to put back your information and questions. I count on you because there are still people present who give very constructive opinions and open to discussion and dialogue! Good day to all, I will try to answer the maximum today ... Hello to all! I'm back this morning if I can help you answer some questions ... I hope the answers on the plastic have cleared the doubts of the majority.

The tone gets harsher over there and as it seems they want people not to ask questions that are quite understandable after debacles like with Robotech and other companies that had few experiences with miniature production and relied to much on the idea that it will somehow turn out good.



Regarding my credibility. I think most here have already realized that I have been working in the industry for years and you would also be surprised how many from the industry are alos on this forum. In the past most of us have done this under our real name, but often we were called imposters if the people did not hear from us what they wanted to hear. So, many of us are here incognito by now. If you send me your email I can send you my Potfolio and you are free to contact those companies listed there and ask them who I am. But I will not release my sources, for once the NDA ask me not to do it, but also because some information is "off the record", but still good to know. I actually did work for Rackham back then and I still am in contact with many of the people from back then. I was amongst other things actually one of the guys responsible for the translation into German of all AT43-material and did also work on Confrontation. If there is one person that wants Confrontation back than it would definitely me. But then it should be done properly and not as amateurish as it is done right now. Right now this is more heading in the direction of Robotech, i.e yes it has reached its goal, but not made enough money to cover it all until the end. No big surprise there. Many KS give a lower sum and hope for a higher end-sum.

If you get your stuff done in China you better have some guy that has a close look at everything that is done at the factory or you will get great minis presented and trash delivered later, as happened with Mongoose back then. SD does not have that experience, you can tell it from most of their answers. Rackham did have that experience and they had one person whose only job was being in China every month and making sure things work out. I think I even have some pictures somewhere showing the Rackham-guy at the factory.

You do need to have more than quotes, since the factories are always booked as hell. I.e. you at least have secured a production slot, but from what they release to us they still seem to be in the quote stage, which is not good when the KS is already running. And they release way to few info how the final product will look. Again I have to point at the Robotech debacle with the less then great miniatures.

 Hulksmash wrote:


Additionally since the KS started it hasn't felt like an attack when he posts.?

You're reading different posts to me, then.

Mike, no bad feelings, I am used to be the Cassandra. I got called worse things when I warned that Mealstrom Games would collapse. My problem seems to be that I always check the numbers and when they do not add up I get a bad feeling. Btw. I warned about Mealstrom more than a year before the collapse? How was I able to do it? Well when e company starts to pay with the money of the latest customers for the orders of earlier customers, than there emerges a pattern, and that pattern ashowed up with Mealstrom.

Interestingly this pattern also showed up with Ludik Bazar or whatever their name is now. Ludik belongs to the same guy that owns SD. And the same patterns that brought Ludik down start to show up with this KS. And it is not only me talking about it. Go to the KS-comments. Really a lot people ask those questions.


Besides I do not ask questions that have not been asked from other companies during KS. Nearly all companies that were not able to reply to them ended up with messed up KS.

Thing is most people don't know the industry side of the industry. They know that "moulds cost a lot" and that plastic ones are typically more expensive than metal or resin etc.... But most have no concept of the actual numbers nor any idea where to even start finding out about that (esp since much of it is real-world stuff rather than online articles).

So most see a few hundred thousand and asume that that must be enough to run things; this is especially the case when they've no further idea of the company behind it and any resources or investments that they might also have.


Sadly KS doesn't require companies to publish all their facts and figures openly; backers do have to take a lot on faith that the numbers balance. So generlaly its not until one follows or backs a failed KS or two that they get a feel for when the KS companies are speaking all bluster with no fact; or when there are tell tale warning signs.

So sometimes warnings from others can fall on deaf ears, or be subject to more hostile replies than one might expect. Esp when people get wound up in an IP that they really like or a franchise that has a legacy behind it.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
And the same patterns that brought Ludik down start to show up with this KS.

I'll just add that, while I'm not in the industry, I have followed way too many KS and, if there's any pattern, it's that creators do *not* change their behavior when a KS funds.

Kevin Siembieda did not change when Robotech funded.
Dionisius did not change when HeroQuest 25th funded.
Jarek did not change when Aliens vs. Predator funded.
Cryptozoic did not change when Ghostbusters II funded.

And, yes, there are plenty of examples of good creators as well.

Taken alone, Duncan's later comments might not be enough to make a decision. But, even before Duncan's later comments, the flags were evident. I'm seeing enough here to say, "Eh... maybe not". Or, rather, "You want me to trust you with *HOW* much money???"

The pull of an IP is strong, but, after a disappointing result with Cryptozoic's The Walking Dead KS, I can easily say that a KS backer needs to divorce himself from the FOMO. Ask yourself if you would back the project if there was no IP involved.

Myself, I will do like I do with most First Created projects. If I don't see enough miniatures production experience, I wait until the creator's next project. From SD's announcement for the Confrontation Boardgame, and that they won't be able to produce plastic miniatures of all the Confrontation metals in this KS, suggests to me that they will offer another Confrontation KS if and once they fulfill this one.

EDIT: I also wish license holders would do a better job vetting a potential licensee, although I'm saying this in general. Or at least to the JK Rowling estate.

EDIT: I'm gonna guess everyone here already knows this, but nic-e posted this on Lead Adventurers: "that seems like a promise made by an earnest but naive creator. It's one thing to say "well we can just scan them and make them in plastic" It's quite another to actually adjust those scans in such a way as to lay them out for casting in a steel mould without MAJOR reworking. The labour involved in just getting the existing miniatures ready for tooling would be insane. Every single figure would need scanning, breaking up, reworking, slicing up again...it makes my head hurt just thinking about it. Not saying it couldn't be done, But not on the budget and time scale they seem to be promising."

Well, it is possible but very costly... in some cases it would be cheaper to completely sculpt those miniatures anew digitally. We are talking here about 6-7 digit sums.

I do not post on the Dakka forum but come often to read the posts.

However, because Confrontation was the game that got me into this hobby, I am following several forums and social media

On the Confrontation Discord Channel, the following is posted and which anyone can go and see:

HaleysRedComet - Yesterday at 4:30 PM
I question a company that has never produced a miniature.

TurboCooler - Yesterday at 4:31 PM
I agree with you. Which is my first red flag. I am happy to leave the pledge and if I miss out, oh well regardless of how badly I wanted this to work

Confrontation Universe - Yesterday at 4:41 PM
@HaleysRedComet SD may have not yet but I do have this experience :wink:

HaleysRedComet - Yesterday at 4:41 PM
Are you working for SD?

Confrontation Universe - Yesterday at 4:58 PM
I do

TurboCooler - Yesterday at 5:01 PM
What projects have you worked on for example?

Confrontation Universe - Yesterday at 5:31 PM
The Alkemy Game which celebrate its 10th anniversary this year.

TurboCooler - Yesterday at 5:38 PM
This game? [Link to BGG that I cannot post because this is my first post but you can easily find]
BoardGameGeek
Alkemy
Publisher's blurb:
Alkemy is a strategy game that takes place in a medieval fantasy world. During your Alkemy games, you will control a group of fighters represented by miniatures and you will manage them in scenario-driven encounters against an ...

Acarvius - Yesterday at 5:43 PM
Yep it must this one (here is their official website: [Link you can find on discord])

Confrontation Universe - Yesterday at 5:44 PM
It is indeed(edited)


Would and of the Industry Insiders know this person or this project?

I've not heard of it ; here is their KS of which they've had two fund

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/909359300/alkemy-blitz-miniatures-game/description

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/909359300/alkemy-blitz-starter-box

Though they are much smaller IP and based on the chatter and funding goals and amounts I'd say the majority of the market hasn't noticed these much. Or just didn't show interest.

 Overread wrote:
I've not heard of it ; here is their KS of which they've had two fund

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/909359300/alkemy-blitz-miniatures-game/description

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/909359300/alkemy-blitz-starter-box

Though they are much smaller IP and based on the chatter and funding goals and amounts I'd say the majority of the market hasn't noticed these much. Or just didn't show interest.

Alkemy is another French game that came out with some really nice sculpts, but they didn’t see the need for English translation being a good quality as being important. A lot of the work was done by the fans, and like confrontation it has gone out of business multiple times with die hard fans buying the rights and brining it back. I bought lots of the jade triad boxes (20+) for my Asian themed horde, but got them on clearance at Miniaturemarket over the past few years. Unfortunately I don’t think the game will ever become vastly popular, but it has some good quality.

Limonata wrote:

Confrontation Universe - Yesterday at 5:31 PM
The Alkemy Game which celebrate its 10th anniversary this year.

Gee, I'm glad they told us this information up front without having backers resort to asking them point blank for this information.

Anyway, here's a Dakka review of the Alkemy miniatures. Quite good, really. : https://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Alkemy%20miniatures

And here's Alkemy's FB page. Tres bien. : https://www.facebook.com/alkemy.the.game

So I guess if anyone's FOMO and on the fence, your only resort is to get onto Discord and ask these sorta questions. :yeesh:

EDIT: If SD can mention they've published RPGs through KS, they should have mentioned they've published miniatures through Alkemy. Maybe there's a reason why they can't tell us on the KS homepage, but telling us would be a step towards establishing their miniatures experience.

Alkemy is good as a game and as miniature line, although it is easy to pick up on something that is not so great about both aspects. However, Alkemy in its current incarnation is primarily resin, although they had their first endeavor with plastic in the second kickstarter - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/909359300/alkemy-blitz-starter-box. Unfortunately, I cannot comment on anything there except "things are delayed". But at least this should provide S-D with some (limited) expertise.

This project can be compared to Wrath of Kings, although this comparison is very slippery. CMON had experience. CMON had skills, tools, contracts and finances. CMON shoot for low common denominator - faction boxes, even unit boxes. And CMON did not go for so many unique sculpts, staying with duplicates and triplicates to boost numbers of miniatures per pledge. And CMON knew how to run kickstarters (and they do that still with great success, just compare their performance to others). WoK results can be seen at lots of places - shameless plug for non-wolfen Goritsi - https://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/images-70290-45470_Goritsi%20Unboxing.html Soft in detail, with mould slippage problems and necessary hot water treatment.



Unfortunately, S-D are not CMON in all these aspects. I am inclined to throw a single penny to S-D just for some unhelpful comments about the game great for its time... but not for anything they may not deliver.

The latest comment from KS

haha I am happy to read the suggestion for the KS add-ons, because I myself suggest many of them! Art book, map of the continent, map of Cadwallon.... so lets see what they comes up with! But this is all great collecting items!!! Keep it up guys, you almost made it to the Mid-Nor clan!!!!

I believe another post said they will never change their attitude, I believe they will march forward regardless of the comments given so many seem to be jumping in without regard.

I do not believe and Art book, nor map nor map of Cadwallon will seriously move the needle.

From the KS comments, a collaborator post about the potential for including add ons given the demand:

I am happy to read the suggestion for the KS add-ons, because I myself suggest many of them! Art book, map of the continent, map of Cadwallon.... so lets see what they comes up with.

Seems weird to have one of your collaborators talking about potential add-ons and then "Lets see when they comes up with".

The person who will be in charge of the miniature production has been answering more questions on Discord.

However, I am not knowledgeable in these things to know the veracity of their claims.

They have stated that they can use all the existing "masters" to create PVC molds and "no scanning is required" nor "rework"

They also confirmed that the main body will be PVC and that weapons and other bits that need to be straight will be ABS.

So, I assume similar to how Mythic Battles was composed.

I guess if this was all true, no idea why we were not simply told this is how it would be and eliminated many questions.

Like I said, I know nothing about figure molding to know how much of this is true.

Sounds reasonable, that's one big thing this kickstarter has going for it, all models complete and ready to go.

They have stated that they can use all the existing "masters" to create PVC molds and "no scanning is required" nor "rework"

I really hope we look incredibly stupid with our doubts two years from now, but until then I don't believe this.

Well I guess they could be planning to use the older pantograph tequnique where you 'trace' a physical probe over the surface of the object and a cutter follows the movement on the mould

but typically if you're doing that you make 3-ups (3x scale) masters to ensure you get all the detail across?

(or maybe Rackham did a bunch of conversion of minis into files that the never used when they went to plastic for Ragnarock?)

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:
Sounds reasonable, that's one big thing this kickstarter has going for it, all models complete and ready to go.

But they arent ready to go. The sculpts are designed for another medium, so you're going to need to convert them to 3d, account for shrinkage/detail loss, part them out, etc. There's still a ton of work to do.

The fact that they're answering questions on Discord through a questionable mouthpiece seems to me they want to circumvent what little accountability kickstarter has by not having the comments directly tied to the campaign.

Well, it is possible, but not cheap and needs a lot of expertise

I think they should allow Cadwallon to keep doing their thing, they could completely skip on the miniatures and concentrate on the rules while Cadwallon could keep making what people want and in the quantity they want.

What I wonder... who is going to buy Ressurection when it comes. Cause... forcing all backers to by the big box there will surely be quite some ebaying of that stuff and the market will be saturated to a degree. And I don´t see that many people that have just bought Classic to shell out more for miniatures that actually do replace their minis. And the forms they created for classic are wortheless after the KS since according to them they will only produce Resurrection Minis after the KS.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
What I wonder... who is going to buy Ressurection when it comes. Cause... forcing all backers to by the big box there will surely be quite some ebaying of that stuff and the market will be saturated to a degree. And I don´t see that many people that have just bought Classic to shell out more for miniatures that actually do replace their minis. And the forms they created for classic are wortheless after the KS since according to them they will only produce Resurrection Minis after the KS.

See this is the odd thing to my mind. If they are already going to relaunch next year with brand new minis why make a KS on such a scale like this one? Nostalgia can be strong, but it seems odd to do that whilst chasing a new material and method of production. It also seems odd to take all that investment money to plough into a product line that is limited

This isn't like Privateer Press's Minicrate limited release (small scale limited releases); nor like Reaper Bones (alternate material for cheap production and sales).

That said I'm sure in a year most fans will be ready to buy more models, esp if they are well designed and made. The real question is if in a year the Confrontation company will have the money to finish the KS AND The relaunch

Mid-Nor unlocked.



Next up is the Paladin of Allahan.

Well, if they keep their schedule Ressurection and the delivery of Classic wil more or less overlap to a degree.

And at the moment they hav fallen below 640K


Automatically Appended Next Post:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/996665814/confrontation-classic-the-legendary-skirmish-game/comments

Now the team accuses Frederik Wunderlich of spamming because his request for cards. Problem is... the cards were essential for the old Confro... he`s quite right.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

Well I guess they could be planning to use the older pantograph tequnique where you 'trace' a physical probe over the surface of the object and a cutter follows the movement on the mould

but typically if you're doing that you make 3-ups (3x scale) masters to ensure you get all the detail across?

(or maybe Rackham did a bunch of conversion of minis into files that the never used when they went to plastic for Ragnarock?)

Certainly possible, But it's not ideal.
There's a certain loss of detail in this method, which is why alot of manufacturers went with 3ups for plastic kits and why they switched to digital sculpting.
It's also a bit of a lost art.I know renedra still use it , But most modern manufacturers aren't going to be using a pantograph, and those that do most likely haven't got the same experience of using it on small detailed models like a 28mm master sculpt.

The fact that they say they won't need to adjust the masters for casting in a new material is a bit wobbly.
If they go with two part off the shelf castable pvc, which is closer to a resin, then they can use a mould similar to a resin mould. but given their seeming lack of experience with miniature production, They;d need to outsource this to someone experience to ensure a decent quality level.
If they go with the kind of PVC used by CMoN, then that is going to require either pantographing or scanning and adjusting to remove undercuts/pull areas/reinforce shallow detail ect ect.

The issue i see is that it seems they haven't really pinned one material or method down yet, but they've already set a budget.
If they wanted to go with HIPS then they''re really low balling it (to the point of not even scratching the surface of what it would cost to make the moulds and do all the reworking of the models.)
I do wonder if they simply got an estimate from a producer over seas and said "yeah that's the amount we'll aim for" without factoring in the many extra costs of production?
they have experience with printing, which has a whole different set of challenged and hidden costs , so they could easily not take into account the fact that sometimes a mould will go bad, a master will get destroyed in the process, whole batches of material wil be faulty and ruin a whole set of moulds ect ec.

for the price per mini they're offering I'd imagine they#d want to go for a CMoN style production, which means high yield, high cost moulds. they could do a mould per faction, or simply have one single mould for the entire lot. (could explain the main pledge being all or nothing.) and that'd cut the cost of mould production down, But it could lead to a very shoddy toy soldier style product.

I'm curious to see what they do with it either way, Mostly just out of professional interest as someone who has worked in casting and model production.

The latest reply from Discord

Confrontation Universe
@TurboCooler - Is it possible to elaborate more. Would not the molds for the PVC and ABS need metal molds, are you saying that these can be made via the masters? ---Masters are what's needed to make molds. Metal, plastic or resin. We don't need metal molds to make the plastic ones. - There is no rework that will be required? --- Maybe a bit but not that much. -For example, would not the plastic molds need deeper or bolder lines to compensate for the shrinking of the material which would be much more than metal? --- Not really no. As for Alkemy, the same masters were used to produce Plastic minis, the same in resin and even some metal samples. Not an issue at all.



¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Like I said, making miniatures is not my expertise. I have read a lot on this forum and other miniature forums. I did not realize you could use the same master mold for metal, plastic and resin. I guess, if this was all true, why was SOOO difficult to give backers this information??? Many in the comments had to pull teeth? At this point, I am out because I have no idea who is credible or what to believe anymore. I am not even sure if the question a poster asked and what was answered where talking about the same thing LOL!.

And, because I have forgotten to say so, thank you for those whom have replied. Much appreciated.

I will have have to ask my friends if they have any Alkemy figures so I can examine them.