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I like that we're seeing effective pure ad mech lists now. The fact that you dont have to take a knight if you dont want to is quite nice.

But i like my knights haha, I just wish like the Chaos ones they included the "Adeptus Mechanicus" keyword

I have been looking over the FW Index with the Knights and honestly... I can't say I see one that strikes me as a no-brainer or anything. The price point on them is pretty high and the lack of options make them less ideal than a Crusader.

I think maybe, MAYBE the Styrix might be doable at like 475pt.

Anyone else thinking along those lines?

Unfortunately the FW knights dont have the Ad Mech keyword like the Chaos ones had Dark Mechanicum.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Unfortunately the FW knights dont have the Ad Mech keyword like the Chaos ones had Dark Mechanicum.

Well that has to be a stupid oversight. Everything about these books feels rushed to me.

str00dles1 wrote:
Welcome, and thanks gally912 for posting a knight list. That's pretty much what id take. Wondering if there is any room for RFBC in place of thermal.

I think if my maths right you could switch to 2nd Icarus dunecralwer, loose a sniper and should be good. and might be good if your fighting a lot of flyers. not saying thermal is bad, just personal preference to get that RFBC in there.

Actually, lose 1 Arquebus and the Thermal Cannon swaps for RFBC directly (with a point to spare). If I do that, I drop the second Arquebus and upgrade Icarus Autocannons to Stormspear Pod, and round out the ranger squad to 6 dudes (for total of 3x6 man troops). You'd have a few points left over for an Arc Rifle or Heavy Stubber somewheres. Gonna give it a try after its painted


I tend to agree the lack of Admech keyword for Knight is a tad bit of an oversight. If everyone could repair it, that would be much. But the Master of Machines clause says a model cant be affected by it more than once, regardless of source, so you would only ever heal d3 wounds a turn. Doesnt seem like "that" much. I understand not wanting to grant it re-rolls from cawl, but it could be solved simply by having it be keyworded Admech without a forgeworld.

I'm looking to build a 1500 mid range army without the use of Kastellan Robots - how does this look?

[HQ]
Belesarius Crawl

Tech Priest Dominos
- Eradication Ray
- Phorphor Serpenta

[TROOPS]
Skitarii Vanguard (5)
- Plasma Caliver
- Power Sword
- Phosphor Blast Pistol

Skitarii Vanguard (5)
- Plasma Caliver

Skitarii Rangers (5)
- Transuranic Arquebus

Skitarii Rangers (5)
- Transuranic Arquebus

[FAST ATTACK]
Ironstrider Balistari
- Twin Cognis Autocannon

[ELITES]
Corpuscarii Electro Priests (15)

Sicarian Infiltrators (5)
- Power Sword (3)
- Stub Carbine (3)
- Taser Goad (2)
- Flechette Blaster (2)

Sicarian Infiltrators (5)
- Power Sword (3)
- Stub Carbine (3)
- Taser Goad (2)
- Flechette Blaster (2)

[HEAVY SUPPORT]
Onager Dunecrawler
- Neutron Laser
- Cognis Heavy Stubber

Onager Dunecrawler
- Neutron Laser
- Cognis Heavy Stubber

What are thought processes like right now in terms of loadouts for Vanguards/Rangers?

Noticing that there's quite a big spread in the lists I've seen - either barebones with no options or very points heavy loadouts.

Interested what the tradeoffs are in options, and what fits into what kind of list.

Vanilla vanguard. They are there to die so the artilery can shoot. Rather lose a 10 pts model than a 24 :p

 temoinlanuit wrote:
What are thought processes like right now in terms of loadouts for Vanguards/Rangers?

Noticing that there's quite a big spread in the lists I've seen - either barebones with no options or very points heavy loadouts.

Interested what the tradeoffs are in options, and what fits into what kind of list.

Your three options are:
1) Five naked Vanguard
2) Three naked Vanguard, 2 Plasma Caliver Vanguard
3) Three naked Ranger, 2 Arquebus Ranger

#1 is for bubble-wrapping. #2 pairs well with a Dominus to take out pretty much anything. #3 is for anti-IC.

Hmm.. it sounds like one of either 2/3 is better then?

Unless I'm understanding wrong, lots of cheap fodder out-of-faction to take for bubble wrapping in a second detachment (conscripts, etc.)?

 temoinlanuit wrote:
Hmm.. it sounds like one of either 2/3 is better then?

Unless I'm understanding wrong, lots of cheap fodder out-of-faction to take for bubble wrapping in a second detachment (conscripts, etc.)?

Feel free to elaborate on better bubble wrap. With a full detachment please.
ATM we have 10pts per 3+(canticles)/6++ T3 assault 3 overwatch models that have a -1 toughness aura.

Really asking questions to get a better understanding at this point, as I'm very new.

@RVD1 - thanks for sharing, it's helpful. So the idea is that it's a good compromise between "moderately cheap" (naked vanguard) and "too cheap to actually do anything" (other selections, i.e. conscripts/guard)?

Haywire should not be overlooked, I do agree, its pretty crap against vehicles. (I still have not done a single wound to a vehicle with one) but they are surprising effective against infantry. Hight Strength plus a okay AP for a wonderful 4 pts, is hard to pass up.

So here's something I'd love to get a view on - Crawls special rule says that you can choose to reroll any to hit roll - note that this is not mentioning 'failed' to hit rolls.

Without doing the math, this sounds like incredible synergy to the Electro Priests - allowing you to re-roll anything that isnt a 6 would mean you can end up with a huge amount of exploding 6s and hits on the enemy units!!

bortass wrote: Stupid question time. Would any of the starter box primaris marines fill any useful role as a separate detachment? I have the box set and will be painting them and the death guard once I am done with my key Ad Mech stuff.

Guard probably make more sense but I'm curious if any one sees a gap they might help fill since I already have the models. I think I'll be forced to get a non Ad Mech detachment because of psychers. I'm seeing them on the table at the LGS and I don't like letting GSC or Nids easily pop off a couple powers to help the genestealers get off charges or extra attacks. Smite as well...

See my list on the previous page. It has Greyfax for some Psyker help that's cheap and good. I would not use any of the numarines with admech. 1. They are terrible as they have 0 options 2. They fill no gap.

temoinlanuit wrote:What are thought processes like right now in terms of loadouts for Vanguards/Rangers?

Noticing that there's quite a big spread in the lists I've seen - either barebones with no options or very points heavy loadouts.

Interested what the tradeoffs are in options, and what fits into what kind of list.

Barebones as mentioned. 5 Man units to literally die. Giving them cover helps they live a little longer, but they are there to bubble wrap for super cheap and eat dirt.

MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:So here's something I'd love to get a view on - Crawls special rule says that you can choose to reroll any to hit roll - note that this is not mentioning 'failed' to hit rolls.

Without doing the math, this sounds like incredible synergy to the Electro Priests - allowing you to re-roll anything that isnt a 6 would mean you can end up with a huge amount of exploding 6s and hits on the enemy units!!

You could, yes, but the priests are not good to begin with. Perhaps when we get a transport then I can see using them. But they are way to paper thin to live to actually get into combat.

 MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:
So here's something I'd love to get a view on - Crawls special rule says that you can choose to reroll any to hit roll - note that this is not mentioning 'failed' to hit rolls.

Without doing the math, this sounds like incredible synergy to the Electro Priests - allowing you to re-roll anything that isnt a 6 would mean you can end up with a huge amount of exploding 6s and hits on the enemy units!!

woah you're right! Tho it does specify "in the shooting phase."

This also applies to shooting at stuff with a -1 to hit, as rerolls happen before modifiers.

Unfortunately it may not apply to overwatch as that's not during the shooting phase.

MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:So here's something I'd love to get a view on - Crawls special rule says that you can choose to reroll any to hit roll - note that this is not mentioning 'failed' to hit rolls.

Without doing the math, this sounds like incredible synergy to the Electro Priests - allowing you to re-roll anything that isnt a 6 would mean you can end up with a huge amount of exploding 6s and hits on the enemy units!!

You could, yes, but the priests are not good to begin with. Perhaps when we get a transport then I can see using them. But they are way to paper thin to live to actually get into combat.

I was thinking. I like my 2 arquebusses on 5 rangers but is it possible to get a vindicare assassin and some nice cheap force multiplier into an admech list (inquisition, ministorum that kond of stuff)? The core of my army is fix now (cawl, 4 kastellans, 3 crawler, 3 vanguard, tpd, infiltrator, datasmith). So i got some points to spare, used them for rangers, dragoons etc but they seem only okayish

Iago40k wrote:
I was thinking. I like my 2 arquebusses on 5 rangers but is it possible to get a vindicare assassin and some nice cheap force multiplier into an admech list (inquisition, ministorum that kond of stuff)? The core of my army is fix now (cawl, 4 kastellans, 3 crawler, 3 vanguard, tpd, infiltrator, datasmith). So i got some points to spare, used them for rangers, dragoons etc but they seem only okayish

Curious about this as well - played with the idea in listbuilding. Looks like you would have to use a separate detachment to avoid losing canticles.

Maybe something like -

Patrol detachment
(HQ) Tempestor Prime w/ plasma
(Troop) Tempestus Scions w/ plasma
(Elite) Vindicare

Or

Vanguard detachment (+1CP)
(HQ) Tempestor Prime w/ plasma
(Elite) Tempestus scion command squad w/ all plasma
(Elite) Tempestus scion command squad w/ all plasma
(Elite) Vindicare

Fairly cheap?

Might mix and match. Cheapest imperium hq, 2 cheap elites plus vindicare. But the unit count goes up dramatically. Maybe just an auxiliary and screw the cp? Then again, is it that much better than rangers with arquebusses? I feel like they are needed for certain matchups. Sniping buff characters can be so important esp. in tournaments.

Iago40k wrote:
I was thinking. I like my 2 arquebusses on 5 rangers but is it possible to get a vindicare assassin and some nice cheap force multiplier into an admech list (inquisition, ministorum that kond of stuff)? The core of my army is fix now (cawl, 4 kastellans, 3 crawler, 3 vanguard, tpd, infiltrator, datasmith). So i got some points to spare, used them for rangers, dragoons etc but they seem only okayish

How are Vindicare a force multiplier?

To be clear, a force multiplier is a unit taken to improve the performance of your entire army. The two most classic examples IRL being improved communications and combined arms. In the first example, a force with more information can accomplish more than an equivalent force without that same information. In the second example, two complementary forces can accomplish more together than separately.

We are an artillery army, so more long-range static shooting is not a force multiplier. Something that either lets us shoot better (like Cawl or a Datasmith) or mobile CC (like Infiltrators and Dragoons) to tie down threats to the artillery would be force multipliers.

Just a heads up to those still on the fence or think the Electro-priests are not good (or their other counterparts). They are really, really good. Fully worth their points.

If you go ranged, take 10. Throwing 30 shots out with 6s exploding often means you'll get all thirty hits in total, and if you have a Dominus or (hotdamn) Cawl, expect to hit and wound more than you actually shot with. I've had two times now where I shot 30 dice and ended up hitting 40+ (with techpreists buffs). Terminators armor or not, you will not save 30 2+ saves.

The Disco Stick dudes, completely overshadow Sicarians and infilrators, (infiltrators still have their role of deep striking though) so much so, that they made sicarians a meaningless choice. Don't get me wrong, I love the models and still use them because they look cool, but if you want a unit which is more survivable and will always do better in melee, for like 20 pts more, take the disco preists.

The biggest problem with the preists is their lack of good movement (6 is not bad, but still to slow to move across the table). If they had a transport or some other means to move, their lack of good save could be forgivable. Meaning, they are weak to all types of fire, small arms or big. Oddly enough, after a few games, your opponets will not fire their big guns at them, if better targets are avaiable. Their 5++ and 5+++, are shockingly good at ignoring Lazcannons and missles. But surpisingly poor at absorbing Lazguns/autogun fire. Despite their realtivily poor saves, they are still hardier than Sicarians. Whom although have a 4+/6++, simply does not keep the umph and consitution of a 5++/5+++. Making the Priests actually better armored than the Sicarians, math hammer wise and in practical play.

I have still only 8 games of Admech under my belt in 8th, but I can already tell that Sicarians (although much cheaper) are anemic. They lack the punch, movement and survivablity of their last iteration and are wholly outclassed by the priests in range and melee, even in armor saves (with maybe the exception of being in cover/canticles for that nice 3+ save.

My opponents now focus fire on my priests or altogether avoid getting into combat range with them whenvever possible due to the sheer amount of shots and mortal wounds they dish out. So, keep them out of line of sight. Or they'll be dead before they can act.

As a slight tangent, I don't know how I feel about Sicarians... I love the models. I have 25 of them; 15 Sicarians and 10 Infiltrators. But they have never performed in any of my games. Either being shot off the objective they are standing on, or quickly dying to countercharge/retaltiation combat in melee. The transonic razor and blade are simply poor weapons. I actually think GW rules writers, simply didn't know or didn't care on how to make their rules. They are so lack luster and blantantly weak, that I have a feeling, this was intentional. The Razor should be a powersword. S/User/S+1, AP-2/3 on 6 mortal wounds or cause D3 regualr damage. Or keep their old rules, Razor S/User, Ap-1 Blades Attacks +1 (due to two swords) S/+1 or S/+2 AP-2. Tranzsonic aura: After the first round of combat, count the razor/blade as AP -4.

I could understand why they might not want to give it Stregth +2 due to canticles boosting them up to S7 meaning they could seriously threaten vehicales, but I also think that, that threat would make them more viable and reasons to take them.

OR! They could keep their "blah" rules, and make them hardier. Give them a 4+/5++ and a 5+++ or 6+++. Thus granting them some surviablity and making them more hardy than the priests. Giving you a reason and a distinct advantage but different tactical role to the priests. They are fast, have okay melee and decent shooting and can probaly surive a round of shooting from small arms fire like Lazguns or autoguns. Maybe not so much bolters/heavy bolters, but everything less than. Their sorry save of 4+/6++ is crap. And borders on the question of Why? Why not a 5++ like before or many of the other units in the faction. Or at least a 6+++, just to give you that holy grail of "Just maaaybe!".

So, Sicarins are soooo... "feh" rules wise and unit composition that I actually think this is what happened:

Obviously, they want people to buy the priests so they buffed them super hard. But in doing so, they would need to make the Sicarians a different animal, instead, they just made them fill the same rule and make them worse at said role all around. So they intentionally made them worse and borderline removed them as a viable unit to force the other options: Infiltrators or Priests.

Suzuteo wrote:

Iago40k wrote:
I was thinking. I like my 2 arquebusses on 5 rangers but is it possible to get a vindicare assassin and some nice cheap force multiplier into an admech list (inquisition, ministorum that kond of stuff)? The core of my army is fix now (cawl, 4 kastellans, 3 crawler, 3 vanguard, tpd, infiltrator, datasmith). So i got some points to spare, used them for rangers, dragoons etc but they seem only okayish

How are Vindicare a force multiplier?

To be clear, a force multiplier is a unit taken to improve the performance of your entire army. The two most classic examples IRL being improved communications and combined arms. In the first example, a force with more information can accomplish more than an equivalent force without that same information. In the second example, two complementary forces can accomplish more together than separately.

We are an artillery army, so more long-range static shooting is not a force multiplier. Something that either lets us shoot better (like Cawl or a Datasmith) or mobile CC (like Infiltrators and Dragoons) to tie down threats to the artillery would be force multipliers.

-.- the vindicare is supposed to take the rangers role. Force multiplier was referring to inquisition etc. cause we need a detachment for the vindicare and why not use units the imperium offers and help out the rest of our army.

 Tsol wrote:
Just a heads up to those still on the fence or think the Electro-priests are not good (or their other counterparts). They are really, really good. Fully worth their points.

.

What they have going for them is they are very cheap, but currently I will still disagree and never use them til our codex comes out and then see how they fair. I am happy they work for you in your area.

They can deal a ton of shots but as you said, you need them kept out of LOS first. Your average table should have a few pieces of blocking terrain like that but its never been enough ive ever seen to let them live long.

I'm not sure why someone would waste lascannon shots at them. They are not good taking it eitherway but that's a bad player to use that weapon on them. You fail the invuln, then they roll a 3 for damage, now he has to take 3 saves again and make all 3 or dead

I like the models, and I want them to be good, but I don't see it happening til possibly our codex.

...

I was at Game Empire on Saturday. I ran the following list. I got tabled by an orc gretchen artillery + void shield combo that had about 90 boys running up the board. Thestr 8 artillery leafblower was too much for my mixed screen and only 3 onagers. I then kill pointed a Harlequin Eldar list that I would have tabled in 2 more turns and then tabled a dreadnaught army.



Some unit reviews. Best units first. Conscripts are amazing, you need to start running 60 of them or you will auto lose to certain deepstrike charging armies. Onagers + Cawl are super stars, you need more Onagers badly. Onagers can move and shoot 8" with no penalty! And they are easier to fix with their 11 wounds. Robots are comparable to Onagers, but vastly less mobile and vulnerable to all kinds of close combat shenanigans that Onagers can more easily resist due to their large bases. Staff priests went HAM in two games but are catastropically bad versus boys. Staff priests are okay if you can hide them out of LOS and then get a charge onto a unit with an invul save. Staff priests are one of the few units that can consistently kill high invul save units like harlequins. Celestine can dominate the board and can get a guaranteed 1st turn charge, I think she added a lot to my admech list because she game the opponent something he had to deal with.

Greyfax was situational. Her ability to suppress overwatch allowed the staff priests to get in ... but they were promptly eaten by shoota boys. Primaris marines I brought because I had them painted and I wanted to try them. For 200 points the 10 of them were a dodgy screen unit that was surprisingly effective against middling targets. I would not take them again in this list and replace them with 120 points of conscripts. The Vanguard were generally crap. If my opponent decided to shoot them, they died and took their fancy guns with them. The datasmith took more shots than he should because my opponent didn't realize he was bad, but on paper he is almost a 52 point 4 wound terminator ... but that is still bad. The lascannon ballistari really failed against anything with an invul save and their immobility from 'heavy' combined with their fragility makes them pretty poor choices. They usually didn't die because they were low threat but the Ballistari consistently let me down when it came to actually killing anything due to failing 3+ to wound rolls over and over again.

Another guy ran the following list: Cawl, 6 Onagers, Celestine, 4 sister squads, 2 exorcists or something. That guy tabled every opponent. If I had infinite money and time I would replace the Ballistari and Robots with 4 more Onagers and pick up 2 retributor squads with heavy bolters (they could do the robots job for a fraction of the cost). I would also throw in 40 more conscripts and a commisar instead of the primaris. Greyfax I still think is worth the points because when the opponent has psychers, she really helps.

Thanks for the review Wulfey, very interesting. I'm also coming to the conclusion that you can't have too many Onagers for the specific reason you state... move & shoot with no penalty & they are only a bit more expensive than a single dakkabot.

Thank you for the review!

Another thing, I think the ideal ratio of ONagers is 2 Neutrons to 1 Icarus. Everyone at game empire feared the icarus more than anything because they are simply devastating to anything with the fly keyword. All flavors of eldar are hard countered by the icarus. If you knew your opponents had more fliers, a ratio of 1:1 would also be acceptable. If you guys check out the mathhammer spreadsheets I saw elsewhere, icarus is more damaging than neutron even without the 'fly' keyword against T4-T6 low wound count targets. The guy with 6 Onagers ran 2:1.

EDIT-RANT: I forgot to mention, I shot the Vanguard radium carbines several times over the course of the day. I think they killed 2-3 boys all day. Shoota boyz have 2 str 4 shots for 4 points? 3 str 3 shots from a 10 point model kinda sucks. Vanguard don't have the body count of Conscripts nor the volume of fire of Conscripts/Boyz, but cost all kinds of points. I get the whole shroudpsalm argument, but the admech troop slot feels bad. The plasmas did get off a round of shooting against the orcs and killed a few boys before they were easily shot to death by cheaper models. The plasma team that wasn't effortlessly rinsed away by basic eldar grav tank fire did manage to put some wounds on a harlequin vehicle. Another problem with vanguard is that the various force organizations really penalize running them MSU. The only way I see them working is something like 6-8 squads of 5 with 1 plasma each, but then you are stuck taking a bunch of TPDs to fill out the HQ slots to keep your canticles working. If you are going to run Cawl, that leads to 500 points in HQs but 250 of those are in 2 TPDs that don't fight well and can't heal vanguard. If you really want to be hyper competitive, I don't think you will see vanguard spam run. The guy that brought Cawl + 6 Onagers really had the right idea.

Well, looks like to be competitive you still need to spam/use borderline unfluffy lists or don't use the cool models like the Vanguards. I got to admit that the Vanguards should either have a transport or the return of the Scout deployment to be more effective, mine rarely finish the game alive (I only played games where I had 10 Vanguards though) and some way for them to not get wiped out in one turn would be nice (yeah cover but... I can't keep them indefinitely hidden).

I think I'll just stay out of tournaments and competitive play altogether, doesn't suit me.

ATM I am working on a spearhead detachment (Cawl, Rangers 2 Arquebusses, Datasmith, Infiltrators, 2x2 Dakkastelans, 2 Neutronagers, 1 Icarus Onager) paired with an Aastra MIlitarum patrol detachment, Lord Commisar and 50 Conscripts. So many points left to use with this dirt cheap conscript screen. Not too sure what to add though

and since i basically I'd have to build 50 conscripts: What models are there that could fit into a nice AdMech army?