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Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





I've said it before and I'll say it again, old marines are actually pretty new, the MK 7 tactical squad kit is what, 5 years old? the MK7 devestator and assault kit are newer. and the MK3 and 4 kit (which are tactical squad kits don't fool yourself) are less then 5 years old. And, most importantly they're still making money I was in my local GW today and got taking about the fears with the local manager. shooting the bull etc, and he told me that old Marines STILL outsell "many of the other ranges in 40k" why is GW going to retire old marines when they're still outselling Orks or Eldar (just for example)

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Revving Ravenwing Biker




Hanoi, Vietnam.

BrianDavion wrote:
Iwhy is GW going to retire old marines when they're still outselling Orks or Eldar (just for example)
Because otherwise, this tinfoil hat I'm wearing just makes me look silly.

But in all seriousness, nothing lasts forever. Even Primaris Space Marines will be discontinued eventually, but eventually could be a very long time. If you've got issues about the Legends not getting points reviews, fair enough, that's something we know is true, but speculating as to what and when will be added to Legends beyond what they've said, is just that, speculation, and losing your rag about your own speculation is an exercise in spectacular silliness.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/29 03:51:53


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




But..but...they going to take away all my army mens..what will I do ? Play WoW classic ?...I can't handle it man..I hate to farm !!
   
Made in fi
Junior Officer with Laspistol







 BaconCatBug wrote:
And now GW have an official way of mothballing units, the "Legends" malarkey.

Guess which units are going to go on that list the next time SM codex gets a refresh?

This is pretty much the worst time to start worrying about that. Even at GW's new breakneck schedule, the next codex will probably arrive Q1/2021 or so.

"The place they go towards is a place even less imaginable to most of us than the city of happiness. I cannot describe it at all. It is possible it does not exist. But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas." 
   
Made in ie
Norn Queen






Dublin, Ireland

My reading of the Legends stuff is that you can still use their rules pretty much anywhere outside of official tourneys and even then the TO can include them?

Hows that mothballing them?

Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be

By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.

"Feelin' goods, good enough". 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Ratius wrote:
My reading of the Legends stuff is that you can still use their rules pretty much anywhere outside of official tourneys and even then the TO can include them?

Hows that mothballing them?
The same way that "Rule of 3" is a "Suggestion for Organised Play" de jure but is de facto used by the majority (if not a supermajority) as a set rule for pick-up Matched play.

Add me on Discord: BaconCatBug#0294
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Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
I've said it before and I'll say it again, old marines are actually pretty new, the MK 7 tactical squad kit is what, 5 years old? the MK7 devestator and assault kit are newer. and the MK3 and 4 kit (which are tactical squad kits don't fool yourself) are less then 5 years old. And, most importantly they're still making money I was in my local GW today and got taking about the fears with the local manager. shooting the bull etc, and he told me that old Marines STILL outsell "many of the other ranges in 40k" why is GW going to retire old marines when they're still outselling Orks or Eldar (just for example)


This is a good point, many of the classic marine kits are very new, the Tactical squad was 2013, Mk4 2014, Devastator and Assault 2015, Deathwatch 2016, Mk3 2016. GW still put on their sheets to retailers about new stuff that the Tactical and Devastator squads for example are key products in the marine range.



Now Watch the speed at which the 'lol classic marines are getting squatted' trolls change their 2 year old headline to 'lol classic marines are going to legends'

The new strapline - 'definitely with the next codex update for sure'.

Just like they were saying up until a few weeks ago the next SM codex would be Primaris only.




This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/08/29 08:39:58


 
   
Made in fi
Junior Officer with Laspistol







 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Ratius wrote:
My reading of the Legends stuff is that you can still use their rules pretty much anywhere outside of official tourneys and even then the TO can include them?

Hows that mothballing them?
The same way that "Rule of 3" is a "Suggestion for Organised Play" de jure but is de facto used by the majority (if not a supermajority) as a set rule for pick-up Matched play.

I'm surprised that a RAW stickler like yourself is endorsing reading GW's statement at anything other than face value.

"The place they go towards is a place even less imaginable to most of us than the city of happiness. I cannot describe it at all. It is possible it does not exist. But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas." 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





They even explicitly call out "Your Imperial Space Marine" - are they referencing something I'm forgetting, or are they basically saying "TacMarines are done after this book"?

They're also painting themselves into a corner in points. Once they've legends-ized a unit, providing that point value was fair, it will never change. So unless they manage to persist the specific meta points values across the entire meta for all time, or those points will be off in the future. Which is impractical - the points values will shift. If the points values ever drifted *up*, though, anything Legends would, by definition, be undercosted/OP. So the only way to go is down.

Thus, the only direction the game can go is continual points drops (which they've been doing already, for a couple editions).

Combine that with the already paper-thin marginal differences (for instance, Guardsmen can only be adjusted by 25% or more - if they were 10% under/overcosted, there'd be no fair way to balance them), and there's no real route for success.

They can add more bloat to try to better balance the game (see: most recent SM book), and/or further "streamline" units/rules to reduce variance (less variance between a Space Marine, Fire Warrior, and Guardsman). But those only go so far, and have other clear drawbacks.

I get legend-izing. I can accept that my Corsair Princes have no legal rules (aside from "That giant spear is now a Power Sword, that epic armor is really just fancy-looking normal-dood kit, and that other CCW is really a pistol). "Legends" provides a better path for such options ("you can still take that Chappy on a bike, but it's not likely a great option." - DE would kill for that treatment). But committing to *never* repointing them just paints them into a corner.

And suggesting the entire "Imperial Space Marine" (read:pre-primaris) line is going Legends now - I mean, there goes half my 40k.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Imperial Space Marine is a specific datasheet, not an entire line of models.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Bharring wrote:
They even explicitly call out "Your Imperial Space Marine" - are they referencing something I'm forgetting, or are they basically saying "TacMarines are done after this book"?

And suggesting the entire "Imperial Space Marine" (read:pre-primaris) line is going Legends now - I mean, there goes half my 40k.


No man, chill

They are talking about the specific 'Imperial Space Marine' 30th anniversary model they did a couple of years ago. Its the one pictured in the article under the biker chaplain saying 'Even in death I still serve'
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




But realistically, I think in 9th Old marines will be legend.

You can certain play them as primaris, but bottom line...
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Ratius wrote:
My reading of the Legends stuff is that you can still use their rules pretty much anywhere outside of official tourneys and even then the TO can include them?

Hows that mothballing them?
The same way that "Rule of 3" is a "Suggestion for Organised Play" de jure but is de facto used by the majority (if not a supermajority) as a set rule for pick-up Matched play.


For sure, but it also isn't the same.

Rule of 3 prevents some significant abuses. Legends will have few opportunities to create outsized problems. Asserting that they'll be treated the same, universally, is sort of a slippery slope argument.

Just don't expect to find them at tournaments, because people DO want the most level playing field.

   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




If it is going to work the same way it works for AoS, then the armies that go legend will be good as gone. AoS legend stuff only has power points, and no one plays power points.

Now I of course hope it aint the case, and w40k legends is going to be different.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Karol wrote:
If it is going to work the same way it works for AoS, then the armies that go legend will be good as gone. AoS legend stuff only has power points, and no one plays power points.

Now I of course hope it aint the case, and w40k legends is going to be different.


These will be pointed. We're not talking about entire armies like Tomb Kings, either. It will likely be small sections of armies with specialized wargear. R&H stuff might go in there, but it's pretty clear they're getting a rework soon and if Inquisition / R&H / etc don't codex before Legends it doesn't mean they're squatted.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Karol wrote:
If it is going to work the same way it works for AoS, then the armies that go legend will be good as gone. AoS legend stuff only has power points, and no one plays power points.

Now I of course hope it aint the case, and w40k legends is going to be different.


GW explicitly stated there will be points (and AoS legends will be getting them) in addition to ongoing rule support.
   
Made in ca
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






Karol wrote:
If it is going to work the same way it works for AoS, then the armies that go legend will be good as gone. AoS legend stuff only has power points, and no one plays power points.

Now I of course hope it aint the case, and w40k legends is going to be different.


"Your Imperial Space Marine? Rules, FOREVER. Your Chaplain on Bike? You can use him until actual Space Marine Chaplains on actual Space Marine bikes are invented in the year 30,000.** And, to top it all off, they’ll be getting points, meaning if that’s how you like to balance your games, we’ve got you covered."

Quoted straight from the community article. These" mothballed" units are all getting points. Granted they say they will be pointed once and one time only, frankly that's not gonna fly at all. They are either going to make them all OP but trapped in a special format. Or the community is gonna cry for at least an annual update
   
Made in us
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine




San Jose, CA

Agamemnon2 wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Ratius wrote:
My reading of the Legends stuff is that you can still use their rules pretty much anywhere outside of official tourneys and even then the TO can include them?

Hows that mothballing them?
The same way that "Rule of 3" is a "Suggestion for Organised Play" de jure but is de facto used by the majority (if not a supermajority) as a set rule for pick-up Matched play.

I'm surprised that a RAW stickler like yourself is endorsing reading GW's statement at anything other than face value.


No, they've switched to RAI.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 fraser1191 wrote:
Karol wrote:
If it is going to work the same way it works for AoS, then the armies that go legend will be good as gone. AoS legend stuff only has power points, and no one plays power points.

Now I of course hope it aint the case, and w40k legends is going to be different.


"Your Imperial Space Marine? Rules, FOREVER. Your Chaplain on Bike? You can use him until actual Space Marine Chaplains on actual Space Marine bikes are invented in the year 30,000.** And, to top it all off, they’ll be getting points, meaning if that’s how you like to balance your games, we’ve got you covered."

Quoted straight from the community article. These" mothballed" units are all getting points. Granted they say they will be pointed once and one time only, frankly that's not gonna fly at all. They are either going to make them all OP but trapped in a special format. Or the community is gonna cry for at least an annual update


You will know by LVO. If LVO allows Legend, chances are they will be in the game for some time.

If LVO says no go... they are gone man. Gone. Never to be seen again.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





robbienw wrote:
Bharring wrote:
They even explicitly call out "Your Imperial Space Marine" - are they referencing something I'm forgetting, or are they basically saying "TacMarines are done after this book"?

And suggesting the entire "Imperial Space Marine" (read:pre-primaris) line is going Legends now - I mean, there goes half my 40k.


No man, chill

They are talking about the specific 'Imperial Space Marine' 30th anniversary model they did a couple of years ago. Its the one pictured in the article under the biker chaplain saying 'Even in death I still serve'

Thank god.

Thank you for this.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Reemule wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
Karol wrote:
If it is going to work the same way it works for AoS, then the armies that go legend will be good as gone. AoS legend stuff only has power points, and no one plays power points.

Now I of course hope it aint the case, and w40k legends is going to be different.


"Your Imperial Space Marine? Rules, FOREVER. Your Chaplain on Bike? You can use him until actual Space Marine Chaplains on actual Space Marine bikes are invented in the year 30,000.** And, to top it all off, they’ll be getting points, meaning if that’s how you like to balance your games, we’ve got you covered."

Quoted straight from the community article. These" mothballed" units are all getting points. Granted they say they will be pointed once and one time only, frankly that's not gonna fly at all. They are either going to make them all OP but trapped in a special format. Or the community is gonna cry for at least an annual update


You will know by LVO. If LVO allows Legend, chances are they will be in the game for some time.

If LVO says no go... they are gone man. Gone. Never to be seen again.


Considering those who run LVO are so far into GWs pocket, they will most certainly not be allowable there. The TOs were part of the 8th play test group so you tell me, will the shills shill ? I don't think you need to be clairvoyant to see what will happen.

Edit: I'd often say taking the legends units will be more hampering yourself than getting some great advantage as we are talking flavor units so I don't get why they would be banned but got to tow the company line. Which in part is why this is such a dumb topic. GW has business reasons for why they phrase it that way. It has little to nothing to do with actual balance though gotta get those buzzwords out there. Has everything to do with not giving people reason to get models through second hand, or third party. They want the sales of current kits, thats the long and the short of it as the core game itself is so poorly balanced using that as a rally cry for exclusion of legends just feels like a cop out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/29 20:04:00


 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





the reason hwy GW's saying legendar units in a tounry will proably be best not to be allowed is because they're not factored into play testing and balancing, so if GW puts out a new strat for space marine biker units, that it turns out is absolutely fething BROKEN with a libby on a bike, they're not going to run around and try to fix it, report the bike libby etc

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




The fact they say with a straight face that its about their factoring into balance for play testing is a joke.

What play testing ? Where was the play testing that showed what a wreck the GK codex would be ? How about the fact that allies would be a mess ? Did they play test how we get CPs ?

How about some smite spam ? It took my group 2 mins after seeing smite to go " This can't be real, this is so absurd " and so it was. Now either we are genius level folk, or what they call play testing is casual to the point of taking a nap between player turns.

They are more likely to break the core game in deep ways other than one RAMPAGING !!! Libby on a bike. They phrased it that way for the sole intent of telling people, it's ok, say no, we allow it. We don't like old models, buy the fresh new ones bobby.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/29 20:50:49


 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Agamemnon2 wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Ratius wrote:
My reading of the Legends stuff is that you can still use their rules pretty much anywhere outside of official tourneys and even then the TO can include them?

Hows that mothballing them?
The same way that "Rule of 3" is a "Suggestion for Organised Play" de jure but is de facto used by the majority (if not a supermajority) as a set rule for pick-up Matched play.

I'm surprised that a RAW stickler like yourself is endorsing reading GW's statement at anything other than face value.
You do know what the difference is between de jure and de facto is, right?

Add me on Discord: BaconCatBug#0294
+++++There are currently ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY TWO (122) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
+++++List of "broken" RaW in Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities || Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. || Userscript to add a button to open all "[First Unread]" links on the page, hides the "[Blog View]" links, and adds a "Subscribed Threads" link to forum pages.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Agamemnon2 wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Ratius wrote:
My reading of the Legends stuff is that you can still use their rules pretty much anywhere outside of official tourneys and even then the TO can include them?

Hows that mothballing them?
The same way that "Rule of 3" is a "Suggestion for Organised Play" de jure but is de facto used by the majority (if not a supermajority) as a set rule for pick-up Matched play.

I'm surprised that a RAW stickler like yourself is endorsing reading GW's statement at anything other than face value.
You do know what the difference is between de jure and de facto is, right?


I don't think he does.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 fraser1191 wrote:
Karol wrote:
If it is going to work the same way it works for AoS, then the armies that go legend will be good as gone. AoS legend stuff only has power points, and no one plays power points.

Now I of course hope it aint the case, and w40k legends is going to be different.


"Your Imperial Space Marine? Rules, FOREVER. Your Chaplain on Bike? You can use him until actual Space Marine Chaplains on actual Space Marine bikes are invented in the year 30,000.** And, to top it all off, they’ll be getting points, meaning if that’s how you like to balance your games, we’ve got you covered."

Quoted straight from the community article. These" mothballed" units are all getting points. Granted they say they will be pointed once and one time only, frankly that's not gonna fly at all. They are either going to make them all OP but trapped in a special format. Or the community is gonna cry for at least an annual update


Now this maybe may lack of understanding, but power points has points in its name. They are technicaly points too, the fact that they are not used in games is a separate matter.


You do know what the difference is between de jure and de facto is, right?

Having friends among the mob ?


Where was the play testing that showed what a wreck the GK codex would be ?

From what I understood from articles writen by people that worked on the stuff. GK were too good, had their rules limited, but then GW decided to switch some core rules in the game, but never updated GK to acomodate those changes. Just because GK rules are less then stellar, doesn't automaticly have to mean they never tested the rules.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Power Points has points in the name, but Power Levels did not. It's possible GW will rename Power Levels, or come out with an entirely new system - but that's quite a stretch. Really only viable if you're intent on believing they didn't mean "points" when they said "points".

De jure and de facto have nothing to do with the mob. I'd suggest some googling. Wikipedia is your friend.


From what I understood from articles writen by people that worked on the stuff. GK were too good, had their rules limited, but then GW decided to switch some core rules in the game, but never updated GK to acomodate those changes. Just because GK rules are less then stellar, doesn't automaticly have to mean they never tested the rules.

I tested every build I sent to our INT environment today. One of them passed all my tests, but still didn't work right. Testing doesn't mean everything is perfect.

   
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Dakka Veteran




Far from perfect and glaring huge failures is totally different.

A few things were easily spotted as open to abuse and problematic right out of the gate in the core mechanics of the game itself.

It didn't take long at all to realize, reserves were a problem, smite, CP generation wasn't remotely equal, Ro3 lacking was a problem, allies, etc, etc. That isn't even a by an army example that was stuff found out from a couple games played..

Though to be fair the CP thing wasn't as easy to spot until better strats dropped but I did call it way in the beginning.

So yes, some could be simple misunderstanding of how it'll work, other things show a shocking lack of real play testing.
   
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Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Internal playtesting doesnt compare to having tens of thousands of people interacting with your product.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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Dakka Veteran




These issues we found after 2 games. i can't believe our view of what is open to abuse is that different from any other player of the game. As well they had active play testers out in the tournament community, we know some of them. These are all people that live and bleed pushing a system till it breaks. So either they all dropped a ball found by some random folks from the east coast, or what they call play testing is very different from what we might view it as.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/08/29 21:48:08


 
   
 
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