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Kinda interested in picking up some SMs on impulse. If I wanted to start collecting and pick up a quick 1500 point list, what are people primarily fielding right now and what should I stay away from?

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Kinda interested in picking up some SMs on impulse. If I wanted to start collecting and pick up a quick 1500 point list, what are people primarily fielding right now and what should I stay away from?

The units you want to use will be greatly effected by which chapter you wanted to play, they play completely differently to each other.

A few general points:

Stay away from vehicles other than some dreadnought. Marine vehicles suffer from being too expensive and too fragile but their main issue it that they can't really operate properly on the terrain dense boards of 9th edition.

Vanguard Vets, chaplain on bike, Apothecary, A squad of Infiltrators, Autobolt Intercessors, Eradicators, Redemptor Dread - these are all pretty useful in most chapters.

 Niiai wrote:
I feel a bit sad on behalf of my SW plasmagun/stormshield temrinators.

It's like complaining at a high level.
It was a good move by GW not to make already strong units even tougher.

 WisdomLS wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Kinda interested in picking up some SMs on impulse. If I wanted to start collecting and pick up a quick 1500 point list, what are people primarily fielding right now and what should I stay away from?

The units you want to use will be greatly effected by which chapter you wanted to play, they play completely differently to each other.

A few general points:

Stay away from vehicles other than some dreadnought. Marine vehicles suffer from being too expensive and too fragile but their main issue it that they can't really operate properly on the terrain dense boards of 9th edition.

Vanguard Vets, chaplain on bike, Apothecary, A squad of Infiltrators, Autobolt Intercessors, Eradicators, Redemptor Dread - these are all pretty useful in most chapters.

Only redemptors or are first born dreads any good? Like the standard basic dread, not contemptors or levis?

Looking for some input/tactical thoughts on my Gravis force. Definitely not meta, but it's thematically awesome and I'm curious if experienced marine players can give me some pointers for playing it effectively.

List:

If a model has a 6+++ and is in range of an Apothecary, does the FnP improve to a 5+++ or does it just not stack? I feel like I remember something about Iron Hands getting some kind of benefit, but I can't find it. I'm looking to add the Warlord Trait Iron Resolve to a Deathwatch sergeant and supporting the squad with an Apothecary. If this wouldn't work I've got other options!

bmsattler wrote:
If a model has a 6+++ and is in range of an Apothecary, does the FnP improve to a 5+++ or does it just not stack? I feel like I remember something about Iron Hands getting some kind of benefit, but I can't find it. I'm looking to add the Warlord Trait Iron Resolve to a Deathwatch sergeant and supporting the squad with an Apothecary. If this wouldn't work I've got other options!

That's what it used to do in 7th edition.

If you already have a 6+++, another source of it does nothing.

Mad_Proctologist wrote:
Looking for some input/tactical thoughts on my Gravis force. Definitely not meta, but it's thematically awesome and I'm curious if experienced marine players can give me some pointers for playing it effectively.

List:

Spoiler:

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - White Scars) [87 PL, 11CP, 1,500pts] ++

+ Configuration +

**Chapter Selector**: White Scars

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost

+ Stratagems +

Stratagem: Relics of the Chapter [-1CP]: Number of Extra Relics

+ HQ +

Captain in Gravis Armour [6 PL, 120pts]: Power sword

Primaris Librarian [5 PL, 95pts]: 3) Null Zone (Aura), 6) Psychic Fortress (Aura), Reliquary of Gathalamor

+ Troops +

Heavy Intercessor Squad [7 PL, 140pts]: Hellstorm bolt rifle
. 4x Heavy Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
. Heavy Intercessor Sergeant

Heavy Intercessor Squad [7 PL, 140pts]: Hellstorm bolt rifle
. 4x Heavy Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
. Heavy Intercessor Sergeant

Heavy Intercessor Squad [7 PL, 140pts]: Hellstorm bolt rifle
. 4x Heavy Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
. Heavy Intercessor Sergeant

+ Elites +

Aggressor Squad [12 PL, 160pts]: 2x Flamestorm Gauntlets, 3x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant

Aggressor Squad [12 PL, 160pts]: 2x Flamestorm Gauntlets, 3x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant

Aggressor Squad [12 PL, 160pts]: 2x Flamestorm Gauntlets, 3x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant

Primaris Apothecary [5 PL, 115pts]: Chapter Command: Chief Apothecary, Selfless Healer, The Vox Espiritum, Warlord

+ Heavy Support +

Eradicator Squad [7 PL, 135pts]: Melta rifle
. 2x Eradicator: 2x Bolt pistol
. Eradicator Sgt

Eradicator Squad [7 PL, 135pts]: Melta rifle
. 2x Eradicator: 2x Bolt pistol
. Eradicator Sgt

++ Total: [87 PL, 11CP, 1,500pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

I'd never do a list with Heavy Intercessors and not use the Ultramarines Tactics. They're wimpy in melee, so you want to be able to fall back and shoot, where most of their offense is.

Quickly glanced over the CA 2022 point-changes;

- Reivers: Upgrades are +1ppm instead of +2ppm.

- Scout snipers: -2 pts (so free.)

- Assault Squad: Basically every upgrade got a 5 point discount.

- Land Speeder Tornado: -5 pts

- Land Speeder Typhoon: -10 pts

- Outriders: -5 pts

- Stormraven Gunship: -30 pts

- Centurion Devastators: Heavy Weapons got 5 pts cheaper each. (so -10 pts if giving them 2 Heavy Bolters or Lascannons, -5 pts if giving them Grav-Cannons.)

- Eliminators: Las Fusil -5 pts (so free upgrade.)

- Firestrike-Servo Turret: -10 pts base + Twin las-talon -10 pts.

- Gladiator Lancer: -15 pts.

- Gladiator Reaper: -15 pts.

- Gladiator Valiant: -15 pts.

- Land Raider: -20 pts

- Land Raider Crusader: -20 pts

- Land Raider Redeemer: -20 pts

- Predator Annihilator: -15 pts

- Predator Destructor: -10 pts

- Repulsor: -25 pts

- Repulsor Executioner: -35 pts

- Vindicator: -10 pts

- Land Speeder Storm: -5 pts

- Razorback: -10 pts base, Twin-Assault Cannon +10 pts

Okay. So the Razorback discount actually comes in handy for my Mechanized Infantry Iron Hands army. I was initially concerned about the Assault Cannon price increase, but the general price drop counters that and is nothing but gravy for the Lascannon Razorbacks.

It may be time for a Repulsor Executioner- can haul a trio of Eradicators, plus get the Ironstone and Techmarine boosts.

Generally a good day for Marines in general and non-Dread Marine vehicles in specific.

I'm kinda sad the classic dreads didn't get a reduction. They've been getting the short end of the stick for so long. I want to run my angry washing machines!

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I'm kinda sad the classic dreads didn't get a reduction. They've been getting the short end of the stick for so long. I want to run my angry washing machines!

Dreads are pretty good as they are imo. Perhaps slightly overpriced (but not by much) and could do with an extra attack or two.
It's our other vehicles who needs adjustment the most, and a price-reduction across the board is a good start. Reducing the cost on dreads would just maintain the chasm between Dreads and Vindicators/Predators/Gladiators, etc.

Dreads did look very underwhelming compared to Carnifexes/Screamerkillers, but those got a pretty hefty pricehike (+15ppm) in the latest update.

There's def some units I still wish went down, old dreads included.

Though, for units like dreads, tbh I don't think it's that they need a point drop, their chassis really shouldn't be much cheaper. The problem is they need updated guns. Old school lascannons and missile launchers are majorly underpowered vs 9th ed guns. Give them modern guns and they'd be okay.

The Armour of contempt is good on dreads. I runn SW, and the blizzard shield and axe is a great combo on them.

Dreads in general are fine where they are- between Duty Eternal, Core, and all the various single-model buffs that they can take advantage of as a hybrid shoot/fight unit.

Hrm. The old-school box dreads, specifically, might need a boost- and then only (as said above) in the ranged firepower support department. Maybe make the missile launcher two shots instead of one.

RedX wrote:
Dreads in general are fine where they are- between Duty Eternal, Core, and all the various single-model buffs that they can take advantage of as a hybrid shoot/fight unit.

Hrm. The old-school box dreads, specifically, might need a boost- and then only (as said above) in the ranged firepower support department. Maybe make the missile launcher two shots instead of one.

It always felt wrong that the giant missile box on the arm of a dread had the same output of a foot soldier with a tube over his shoulder.

Not that this is unique to this situation. Lots of vehicle weapons have the same stats as the man portable ones. But also compare with CMLs on terminators and TMLs on speeders.

I don’t think anyone would have an issue with an extra shot here.

In our rules that we did ages ago, Dreadnought Missile Launchers were all Heavy 2.

Made a Mortis pattern with two of them quite tasty.

I did some SW on BT actuion today. I had some rough dices but boy that was rough! I could not kill them. And that involved me kiting 330 points of terminators. I really understimate how armour of contempt keep things alive.

 Niiai wrote:
I did some SW on BT actuion today. I had some rough dices but boy that was rough! I could not kill them. And that involved me kiting 330 points of terminators. I really understimate how armour of contempt keep things alive.

yhea, ive been mainly playing with Tsons since that dropped, but it makes a huge difference. goonhammer did a article about the dice math in regards to saves, but the short version is a a 4+ effectively doubles the number of wounds needed to kill a model, a 3+ save triples it, and a 2+ save needs a full 600% more wounds to achieve a kill. Thus a -1 AP effect on termies basically halves their "effective" wounds, so blocking it REALLY makes a difference.

I never foigh the termites. I just ran from them. But the armie was not impressed by my shooting. Usually 3 redemtors get some things dead. But they did not here.

 Niiai wrote:
I never foigh the termites. I just ran from them. But the armie was not impressed by my shooting. Usually 3 redemtors get some things dead. But they did not here.

Yeah I'm not feeling Terminator shooting or melee. Aggressors still get a ton of benefits and they have MUCH more impressive shooting and melee. Yeah they can't get a ML but one ML doesnt really make them more impressive vs bigger targets.

Oh aggressors. I had not even thought about them. At least not as a comparison

I play SW and the Terminators are really flexible there. My 'castle' had 2 missile launchers and 6 combi plasma. Just pop down fury of the first born and heightened sences and I was hitting on 2's re-rolling 1. I don't know how sustainable that is in this new world.

Anyway, I was trying to look at Logan grimnar and comperes him to a regular terminator lord with chapter command. Am I just paying 15 points for the axe weapon? Now with the lack of CP it might be more tasty then before.

 Niiai wrote:
Oh aggressors. I had not even thought about them. At least not as a comparison

I play SW and the Terminators are really flexible there. My 'castle' had 2 missile launchers and 6 combi plasma. Just pop down fury of the first born and heightened sences and I was hitting on 2's re-rolling 1. I don't know how sustainable that is in this new world.

Anyway, I was trying to look at Logan grimnar and comperes him to a regular terminator lord with chapter command. Am I just paying 15 points for the axe weapon? Now with the lack of CP it might be more tasty then before.

The thing about that though is, if I want all that combi-plasma, I can do Vets or Sternguard for cheaper I feel. With Terminators you're paying a lot for that ability to shoot all shots with the Stormbolter and getting a Power Fist, and at that point Aggressors just work better.

Perhaps regular marines do that, but bolsters are not that great.

I really like the +2 to hit, re-rolling 1 Terminators.

 Niiai wrote:
Anyway, I was trying to look at Logan grimnar and comperes him to a regular terminator lord with chapter command. Am I just paying 15 points for the axe weapon? Now with the lack of CP it might be more tasty then before.

Logan also gets +1 Wound and +1 Attack. The Axe Morkai in 2h mode is basically a Thunder Hammer without the -1 to hit and also has 1 more AP. 1h mode is basically a Power Sword at +1S with double the number of attacks.
So, basically the same points as a Terminator Chapter Master with Thunder Hammer with no other wargear options... but with a better Thunder Hammer and a better Power Sword, and +1 W/A.

What are people's thoughts for small Space Marine Iron Hands position-holding and action-doing squads?

From an Iron Hands perspective, I'm currently using small Tactical Squads, each with a Lacannon as the heavy weapon and a Sergeant with gear as required (I'm partial to Combi-Plasma, but that's a personal affectation).

The obvious alternatives appear to be either a minimum squad of Intercessors (with Stalker Bolt Rifles), or a minimum squad of Heavy Intercessors (with Executor Bolt Rifle and Executor Heavy Bolter). The former's cheaper and more mobile, but the latter offers a bit more firepower and a bunch more durability.

There's also Incursors and Infiltrators. The forward-deploy is interesting, but their tricks may not pay off for the lack of firepower compared to the Intercessors- at least in an Iron Hands army where those Heavy Weapons are good news.

Thoughts?

I am not shure SM should be doing action based secondaries. So far I do not like SM troops. They are not very survivable or killy for their points. (The are thougher then others, but they get removed.) Raise the banners is good VS a passive army.

I do like the infoltrators units that start on the board further out sometimes. I mostly play SW and am planing on experimenting with Terminators on the squads after the armour of contempt upgrade.

RedX wrote:
What are people's thoughts for small Space Marine Iron Hands position-holding and action-doing squads?

From an Iron Hands perspective, I'm currently using small Tactical Squads, each with a Lacannon as the heavy weapon and a Sergeant with gear as required (I'm partial to Combi-Plasma, but that's a personal affectation).

Too expensive as action monkey, too little firepower for cp usage. Better in crusade where you might find needing actions. In gt you design army for secondaries.

tneva82 wrote:
Too expensive as action monkey, too little firepower for cp usage. Better in crusade where you might find needing actions. In gt you design army for secondaries.

What would you recommend for position-holding squads, in that case?

Well that is usually troops. However, I do not like the SM troops.

Long ranged units can do it. Offensive melee units in the contested arias. Yiu can also look into servitors (or fenrisian wolves.)