Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Toofast wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


Ahh yes, that doesn't exist in the UK so she's functionally oop from a UK perspective.

You guys don't have ebay?

Yes, but that's not the same thing? It's never been widely available in the UK so unless you want to pay hefty postage costs she's not really available.

Surprisingly £17 from Germany, the only single model of her up in the UK is £40.

 Tyran wrote:
Nope, probably nerfing Tyranids even more though, because GW is gonna GW.

Hive Tyrants will require 2 HQ slots.

I can see them rewording Armour of Contempt to not apply to vehicles.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Nope, probably nerfing Tyranids even more though, because GW is gonna GW.

Hive Tyrants will require 2 HQ slots.

I can see them rewording Armour of Contempt to not apply to vehicles.

Why? Vehicles need it way more than infantry do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Toofast wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


Ahh yes, that doesn't exist in the UK so she's functionally oop from a UK perspective.

You guys don't have ebay?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:
MY favorite part is how they cut us down by 8CP in the pregame and then try to pretended like worthless round 4 or round 5 CP 'balances it out' like we don't know how the game works.

I'd trade 20 round 5 CP for even just your first warlord trait to be free.

Good! I don't like stratagems, they further unbalance the game by widening the rift between haves and have nots, and I would love to see less of them played overall. Remembering 700 stratagems so I don't get hit with a gotcha mechanic is not my idea of beer and pretzels fun. I don't even think it's good for competitive play because of how unbalanced they can be.

Removing them wholesale and without thought to how they affect each faction individually, runs the risk of making it even LESS balanced than it was previously.

ERJAK wrote:
Why? Vehicles need it way more than infantry do.

Never said it had to make sense. Nothing they do with these things ever does.

Or maybe they feel that AoC is too powerful on one particular vehicle, so the easiest solution is to remove it from all vehicles. GW loves their blanket solutions to small specific problems.

ERJAK wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
MY favorite part is how they cut us down by 8CP in the pregame and then try to pretended like worthless round 4 or round 5 CP 'balances it out' like we don't know how the game works.

I'd trade 20 round 5 CP for even just your first warlord trait to be free.

Good! I don't like stratagems, they further unbalance the game by widening the rift between haves and have nots, and I would love to see less of them played overall. Remembering 700 stratagems so I don't get hit with a gotcha mechanic is not my idea of beer and pretzels fun. I don't even think it's good for competitive play because of how unbalanced they can be.

Removing them wholesale and without thought to how they affect each faction individually, runs the risk of making it even LESS balanced than it was previously.

You're assuming that there are Warlord traits and Relics that are worth taking in the first place. Speaking as an EC player I have my doubts about both from what I've seen in leaks/previews.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
You're assuming that there are Warlord traits and Relics that are worth taking in the first place. Speaking as an EC player I have my doubts about both from what I've seen in leaks/previews.

Eh I think some of the EC relics have some merit but the Warlord Traits maybe not.

If all of the Traits/Relics were relatively equal then I'd have no problem with either everyone paying for them or no one paying for the first ones. But, since there are qualitative differences between traits/relics within their own codices let alone between them I don't think that it's unfair that people pay for the ones they want and if you don't want any then you don't have to pay for them.

Yeah it never made sense that there's a relic that gives you extra saves, or more strength and attacks, or some combination of those... and then a special bolt pistol that does an extra pip of damage, or has a slightly better AP, y'know, if you want a special bolt pistol that does that...

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 Miguelsan wrote:
It wouldn't surprise me if the change were due to the people in GWHQ getting roll stomped by somebody with a transport list in a test game or two.

It was rumored at the time that the changes to a less lethal Bloodbowl edition happened after somebody taught Jervis and Co how people played in the wild.

M.

That was fouling. 3rd? edition I believe. A chap joined the studio league and slaughtered everyone with fouling. Before then they didn't really foul much. This led to the IGMEOY rule and has ended up being the sent off on doubles rule today.

Yeah. It's pretty obvious that the studio doesn't play with the same understanding of the rules than we do. Add tournament players trying to push the envelope, and sudden changes to rules that were not an issue happens.

M.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah it never made sense that there's a relic that gives you extra saves, or more strength and attacks, or some combination of those... and then a special bolt pistol that does an extra pip of damage, or has a slightly better AP, y'know, if you want a special bolt pistol that does that...

To be fair, most people want a bump on the power of range relics.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah it never made sense that there's a relic that gives you extra saves, or more strength and attacks, or some combination of those... and then a special bolt pistol that does an extra pip of damage, or has a slightly better AP, y'know, if you want a special bolt pistol that does that...

Relics should cost points.. it’s the only way to balance them internally.. also it makes it easier to give the first relic not cost CP and the second costing a CP and points.

gungo wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah it never made sense that there's a relic that gives you extra saves, or more strength and attacks, or some combination of those... and then a special bolt pistol that does an extra pip of damage, or has a slightly better AP, y'know, if you want a special bolt pistol that does that...

Relics should cost points.. it’s the only way to balance them internally.. also it makes it easier to give the first relic not cost CP and the second costing a CP and points.

Ideally we should look to the Space Marine codex as a sorta inspiration for a fix.
There's a list for special issue wargear after all. Expand on that list which a Character cam grab something from there for free. Then if you want a super relic for them it'll cost a CP or points.

I'm all for access to relics and even letting Characters have multiple relics for ultimate yourdude-ing though.

gungo wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah it never made sense that there's a relic that gives you extra saves, or more strength and attacks, or some combination of those... and then a special bolt pistol that does an extra pip of damage, or has a slightly better AP, y'know, if you want a special bolt pistol that does that...

Relics should cost points.. it’s the only way to balance them internally.. also it makes it easier to give the first relic not cost CP and the second costing a CP and points.

Believe it or not, that wouldn't solve this particular problem as the Relic still has to be worth the cost of paying for it. A marginal upgrade to a pistol the character will probably never use is a terrible choice regardless of whether you're paying CP or points.

As Evisceration mentioned above, what they really need to do to Relics is sort of what they did when they gave Marines all that special issue wargear section.

There should be "Relics" and "Special Issue Wargear" for everyone (except Tyranids, because... they shouldn't have relics, or wargear, or special characters... but that's a different discussion!), with the former - Relics - being unique items that you expend an abstracted strategic resource (READ: Command Points) on, and the latter - specialist wargear - being more common but still specialised pieces of equipment that aren't limited in the same way relics are, and thus can be purchased with regular points.

 Miguelsan wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 Miguelsan wrote:
It wouldn't surprise me if the change were due to the people in GWHQ getting roll stomped by somebody with a transport list in a test game or two.

It was rumored at the time that the changes to a less lethal Bloodbowl edition happened after somebody taught Jervis and Co how people played in the wild.

M.

That was fouling. 3rd? edition I believe. A chap joined the studio league and slaughtered everyone with fouling. Before then they didn't really foul much. This led to the IGMEOY rule and has ended up being the sent off on doubles rule today.

Yeah. It's pretty obvious that the studio doesn't play with the same understanding of the rules than we do. Add tournament players trying to push the envelope, and sudden changes to rules that were not an issue happens.

M.

I can't speak for 40k specifically, but this is NOT the case at all for AOS...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

gungo wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah it never made sense that there's a relic that gives you extra saves, or more strength and attacks, or some combination of those... and then a special bolt pistol that does an extra pip of damage, or has a slightly better AP, y'know, if you want a special bolt pistol that does that...

Relics should cost points.. it’s the only way to balance them internally.. also it makes it easier to give the first relic not cost CP and the second costing a CP and points.

Believe it or not, that wouldn't solve this particular problem as the Relic still has to be worth the cost of paying for it. A marginal upgrade to a pistol the character will probably never use is a terrible choice regardless of whether you're paying CP or points.

As Evisceration mentioned above, what they really need to do to Relics is sort of what they did when they gave Marines all that special issue wargear section.

There should be "Relics" and "Special Issue Wargear" for everyone (except Tyranids, because... they shouldn't have relics, or wargear, or special characters... but that's a different discussion!), with the former - Relics - being unique items that you expend an abstracted strategic resource (READ: Command Points) on, and the latter - specialist wargear - being more common but still specialised pieces of equipment that aren't limited in the same way relics are, and thus can be purchased with regular points.

I forgot about loyalists getting "special issue wargear". Question: Is that stuff covered in the "Relic stratagem"? Or can loyalists take them under these rules essentially for "free"?

I believe they can.

I mean, BattleScribe let's me, and that's never wrong.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

gungo wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah it never made sense that there's a relic that gives you extra saves, or more strength and attacks, or some combination of those... and then a special bolt pistol that does an extra pip of damage, or has a slightly better AP, y'know, if you want a special bolt pistol that does that...

Relics should cost points.. it’s the only way to balance them internally.. also it makes it easier to give the first relic not cost CP and the second costing a CP and points.

Believe it or not, that wouldn't solve this particular problem as the Relic still has to be worth the cost of paying for it. A marginal upgrade to a pistol the character will probably never use is a terrible choice regardless of whether you're paying CP or points.

As Evisceration mentioned above, what they really need to do to Relics is sort of what they did when they gave Marines all that special issue wargear section.

There should be "Relics" and "Special Issue Wargear" for everyone (except Tyranids, because... they shouldn't have relics, or wargear, or special characters... but that's a different discussion!), with the former - Relics - being unique items that you expend an abstracted strategic resource (READ: Command Points) on, and the latter - specialist wargear - being more common but still specialised pieces of equipment that aren't limited in the same way relics are, and thus can be purchased with regular points.

I forgot about loyalists getting "special issue wargear". Question: Is that stuff covered in the "Relic stratagem"? Or can loyalists take them under these rules essentially for "free"?

They're covered under the Relic Strat currently. How it works as of now:
1. All Chapters have a few of these in common (Master Crafted, Digital Weapons, Mantle, and Artificer Armor).
2. Then each Chapter and all its Successors have access to slightly more specific ones (all them have a variant of a bolt weapon ammo, Ultramarines have a two shot D2 Plasma Pistol, Iron Hands have a really bad Chainsword thing, etc.)
3. THEN you have the generic Marine relics (Burning Sword, Teeth of Terra) and Founding Chapter exclusive (Iron Hands with Gorgon Chain, Imperial Fists get the Eye of Hypnoth), etc.

So how it works is absolutely stupid. 95% of the relics in Categories 1-2 suck. HOWEVER, if you were to expand that list a little + let your Characters take them for free, and THEN you can pay either CP or Points (not sure which would be better) to add 1 of the items from List 3, you solve the problem of lesser Relics needing to compete due to the nature of them really just not being an issue, along with the fact that the stuff in category 3 really aren't broken either.

Yeah the special issue wargear and relic list sucks. Successors and first founding chapters can both access the special issue wargear as relics. However if a successor chapter wants an actual relic they have to pay an additional CP to be able to access a relic. First founding chapters don't need to pay the CP. Successor chapters can never have more than one of the items from the relic list.

Also Balance Dataslate is up in case you've been following this thread for that instead of WarCom.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/06/23/massive-changes-rock-warhammer-40000-matched-play-in-the-latest-balance-dataslate/

No I'm not giving a summary since I'm already doing a favor linking it while at work.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Also Balance Dataslate is up in case you've been following this thread for that instead of WarCom.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/06/23/massive-changes-rock-warhammer-40000-matched-play-in-the-latest-balance-dataslate/

No I'm not giving a summary since I'm already doing a favor linking it while at work.

And there is a thread for it anyway.

Is my calendar broken? I thought Chapter Approved was supposed to last for 6 months. Nachmund was released in February, Nephilim was previewed in May and up for order in June. There are not 6 months on my calendar between February and June. August 6th would be the release date for Nephilim if GW actually followed their own statements... I haven't even gotten time to play in a tournament with the Nachmund book I spent $40 on and now it's invalidated. I will remember this when considering whether or not to purchase GW books in the future.

There were likely shipping issues with the first one, but they might also hold back the release of that one to coincide with the end of the FLG season with LVO.

I would have hated to wait until August for all the changes they just put in anyway despite the poor value of the prior book.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
There were likely shipping issues with the first one, but they might also hold back the release of that one to coincide with the end of the FLG season with LVO.

I would have hated to wait until August for all the changes they just put in anyway despite the poor value of the prior book.

I found the perfect solution, play 30k and ignore the constant churn of rulebooks and new OP armies in 40k. That's what fixed it for me in 7th and it looks like it's time for that again. I really want to love 40k the way I did in 3rd-7th but 9th is just so terrible. Removing templates and streamlining to hit rolls are the only changes I like.

Toofast wrote:
Is my calendar broken? I thought Chapter Approved was supposed to last for 6 months. Nachmund was released in February, Nephilim was previewed in May and up for order in June. There are not 6 months on my calendar between February and June. August 6th would be the release date for Nephilim if GW actually followed their own statements... I haven't even gotten time to play in a tournament with the Nachmund book I spent $40 on and now it's invalidated. I will remember this when considering whether or not to purchase GW books in the future.

They needed to find a reason to push the chaos models further out to annoy people, nephilim was it.

Toofast wrote:
Is my calendar broken? I thought Chapter Approved was supposed to last for 6 months. Nachmund was released in February, Nephilim was previewed in May and up for order in June. There are not 6 months on my calendar between February and June. August 6th would be the release date for Nephilim if GW actually followed their own statements... I haven't even gotten time to play in a tournament with the Nachmund book I spent $40 on and now it's invalidated. I will remember this when considering whether or not to purchase GW books in the future.

My self-imposed rule these days (after being burned Codices that I bought in a burst of enthusiasm that I never got to use) is not to buy any printed materials from GW until I'm in a position to use them now (and even then I've cut back pretty drastically). It's served me pretty well since the advent of 9th.

I was planning on playing in a few tournaments. Then I got a new Porsche and ended up doing a bunch of cars and coffee events, group drives, etc so I didn't have a free Saturday for my FLGS tournaments. Now that I want to spend some Saturdays playing Warhammer, I need a new Chapter Approved just 3 months after buying the last one. If they actually had worthwhile content, I wouldn't mind. Instead the only value they have is the fact that my LGS requires paper copies of chapter approved despite being ok with pirated PDFs of every other rules source in existence.

The main reason I plan to buy the imperial guard codex (whenever that comes out) is for the fluff and pictures. Beyond that, I already know it'll be hopelessly out of date within a few months (unless they somehow manage to make a balanced codex out of an army that specializes in indirect fire, amongst other things).

(Just incase GW is reading this, balancing armies before printing the codex == good, not balancing unbalanced armies to avoid invalidating their recently printed codex == bad)