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A couple of things sprung to my mind...

1. GW are testing their customers for mdf.
2. GW are selling oop figures to the people that didn't get them previously, but not giving them 'free' decent plastic terrain as part of the deal.

Choice 1 would be poor from GW, as the sales of previously limited models would add an extra variable to the mdf test.

I think that everone understands that any prior scarcity here has been artificially manufactured by GW and shouldn't be taken into account when rationally evaluating the set (which seems to be a great deal anyway).

A fair question for veteran players, but having a ~$100 product that you can just buy as a gift or a trial product is important.

1. You don't need to download an app, or worse, a PDF to start playing.
2. Everything is in one box – Even if you could buy equivalent products in 3 boxes, it feels clunkier.
3. The box lasts for 3 plus years so you can more easily create a chain of people who can teach each other.
4. The models are some of the best they've ever made.

I think where they've knocked this product out of the park is that both starting factions are awesome and indicative of the major factions in the game. Hivestorm is a better "value," IMHO, but even if I were generous, I wouldn't want to introduce someone to 40K with the Vespids or Imperial Guard specialists.

"So 40K is about a civil war between these superhuman space marines and their traitorous brothers. So the Astra Militarum, that's the name of the human military that fights alongside the space marines, are these fiddly guys. The bug men are actually a slace race that work on behalf of the the Tau, which are not space marines, but fish people who wear armor and drive mechs."

Every starter box should have space marines. My preference is that they'd be chapter-specific models, but you could also just do cool new poses, battle damage, or whatever. I'd heavily wager that a unit of imperial fist guys would be more popular than trenchcoat squats or Mandrakes and would better represent the game to potential new players.

 tauist wrote:
I havent commented on the starter earlier, but kind of feel it misses the mark. Now that KT24 is effectively "free" in the sense that you have all the team rules and core rules for free, plus you have the app, why would anyone even bother with the starter? Wouldn't you be better off just buying a bespoke team kit and you're off to the races?

I see this as just GW offering folks the opportunity to stock up on limited run models on the low-low (cutting off scalpers in the process). That terrain could easily be DIYed in an afternoon from a bunch of empty cereal boxes..

deano2099 wrote:
Were the Space Marine Hero sets this is made up not £35-£40 each?

For the chase rare on eBay. A blind box in stores was like £8?

 flaherty wrote:
I wouldn't want to introduce someone to 40K with the Vespids or Imperial Guard specialists.

"So 40K is about a civil war between these superhuman space marines and their traitorous brothers.

It seems somewhat odd that you wouldn't want them to start with Vespids or Scions so that rather than be introduced to the variety of 40k, you can claim 40k is all about Space Marines and give someone the impression that it's their story and the other stuff doesn't matter because they're not Space marines. That is not what 40k is.

There's also this dinky little computer game around at the moment which happens to have the blue Space Marines in it...

 lord_blackfang wrote:

deano2099 wrote:
Were the Space Marine Hero sets this is made up not £35-£40 each?

For the chase rare on eBay. A blind box in stores was like £8?

I meant the two sets were a total of around that much for each set. eg: https://elementgames.co.uk/games-workshop/warhammer-40k/space-marine-heroes-3-full-dispenser-


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Cyel wrote:
I think that everone understands that any prior scarcity here has been artificially manufactured by GW and shouldn't be taken into account when rationally evaluating the set (which seems to be a great deal anyway).

I think you're right, what people are paying on secondary market doesn't matter. But it's still cheaper than what you'd have paid if you'd got a set back when they came out.

And where I think the rarity does factor in is that because so few people have them, it has a similar appeal to a new sculpt. It's not just the regular box of plague marines and Intercessors you can already buy.

Exactly right. It's a rich universe, but if you want to create gateway products, highlighting anything other than the characters from the most popular game of the year, about which 95% of the lore is based around is madness.

I like and collect quite a few xenos factions, but they're supporting characters. If you snapped your fingers and got rid of space marines, I doubt 40K would survive for long. Whereas you could squat the Tau and and Astra Militarum, and certainly their niche options, without having much impact on the universe.

Having some offerings for whales is fine, but make it easy for old-timers to recruit new fans!

 Lord Damocles wrote:
There's also this dinky little computer game around at the moment which happens to have the blue Space Marines in it...

Since I spent so much time complaining about the Vespid, I should talk about the rest of the Hivestorm box. The terrain was kind of ‘meh’, like most GW terrain. It was okay, but a little rough in fit and mold seems, and didn’t blow me away.

The Aquilons were about 180 degrees opposite the Vespid. Good detail, precise fit, and hardly a mold seam in sight. What a difference.

You talk a lot about prices, MDFs, perceived rarity of models, their quality etc, but nobody mentions what is important - the rules and how KT24 plays.

How many of you actually play the game and what are your impressions?

I am not too happy, tbh. KT21 was really good as far as I am concerned, and only required a couple of tweaks (Initiative, Tac Op balance) and these things are not fixed still. A lot of other things were introduced that I dislike - like non-counterable equipment, unnecessary granularity in ranges, terrible Tac Op balance and some pretty bad Crit Ops, removing binary effects with dice modifiers lessening the impact of positioning and increasing that of randomness. Team balance, allegedly adjusted with most meticulous precision in KT21, just thrown into a bucket and shaken vigorously.

A lot of changes for the worse with no real changes for the better, at most half-assed band-aids (like the extra CP for losing Initiative).


On a more subjective/personal note, I also am a bit lost with scoring this edition and feel I've lost my flow/mojo/whatever it is called. It reminds me of some point salad euro games where I hardly ever knew the consequences of my moves - is taking 2 stones now going to make me have more points than my opponent at the end of the game or is it taking 3 pigs? No idea!

The same now with invalidation of my favourite playstyle in any game - getting all my guys killed so that I win in the end () - I have problems with predicting when sacrificing an operative is actually worth it.

KT21 had a much clearer focus on scenario - sacrificing an operative for points was always worth it, and I loved it


The addition of scenarios where performing mission actions can actually backfire - like those when you build up points for the opponent to steal them - makes it even more of an obfuscated scoring reality I can't get my head around.

 tauist wrote:
why would anyone even bother with the starter?

As mentioned several times in the thread, the Lite (sic) rules are NOT the full rules.

Coop and solo modes are also not available anywhere but the BRB.

And enjoy your one free mission for the next three years unless you buy.

Now the stupid thing is that the poor excuse for a rulebook included in this "starter set" (with its undersized teams and joke MDF sticker terrain) will not remedy any of these problems either, because it is also "Lite" rules.

The best way to play this game is buy the BRB and use your existing collection. And the best thing to do with this starter is not buy it so that GW never get the idea that people will tolerate this this kind of BS. Even if this was $50 CAD I wouldn't buy it, though to be fair that's because I'm not particularly interested in Marines or Deathguard. If I really wanted both sets of models, I suppose it would be worth $50.

"joke MDF sticker terrain" seems a bit harsh, unless you've already had your hands on it to evaluate the quality, Jake.

I think that it's fair to say that MDF terrain is a massive downgrade on GW plastic terrain, whatever your thoughts on perceived value.

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
I think that it's fair to say that MDF terrain is a massive downgrade on GW plastic terrain, whatever your thoughts on perceived value.

This sort of MDF terrain that can be disassembled and stored flat is a huge consideration for some people to whom space isn't available to store a set of permanently assembled terrain and thus is worth more to them.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
I think that it's fair to say that MDF terrain is a massive downgrade on GW plastic terrain, whatever your thoughts on perceived value.

This sort of MDF terrain that can be disassembled and stored flat is a huge consideration for some people to whom space isn't available to store a set of permanently assembled terrain and thus is worth more to them.

Very much this. The terrain in the new KT box is super appealing to me for storage and convenience while also still looking good. I am blown away by the negativity around the KT starter box when it seems to be one of the best designed 'gaming first' boxes GW has put out in years.

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
I think that it's fair to say that MDF terrain is a massive downgrade on GW plastic terrain, whatever your thoughts on perceived value.

It's a downgrade on what you get in Hivestorm, or you got in Octarius for sure. A big bunch of multi-level terrain. But compared to the last starter set, is this:



really a downgrade on this?



A little bit, maybe. But I don't think they're massively different.


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 PenitentJake wrote:

 tauist wrote:
why would anyone even bother with the starter?

As mentioned several times in the thread, the Lite (sic) rules are NOT the full rules.

Coop and solo modes are also not available anywhere but the BRB.

And enjoy your one free mission for the next three years unless you buy.

Now the stupid thing is that the poor excuse for a rulebook included in this "starter set" (with its undersized teams and joke MDF sticker terrain) will not remedy any of these problems either, because it is also "Lite" rules.

The best way to play this game is buy the BRB and use your existing collection. And the best thing to do with this starter is not buy it so that GW never get the idea that people will tolerate this this kind of BS. Even if this was $50 CAD I wouldn't buy it, though to be fair that's because I'm not particularly interested in Marines or Deathguard. If I really wanted both sets of models, I suppose it would be worth $50.

The rule book is £37.50. The starter set is £67.50. The latter is not going to contain the former. Though I do wish it had a little book like the 2021 starter set did. If only because it was handy to have the rules in a small A5 book.

But yeah, if you're not just "starting" Kill Team and have an existing collection, then the Starter Set is never going to be for you. Unless you really want the models or the DG Kill Team. What I'm intrigued to see is if the full rules for Death Guard Kill Teams will just be highly specific rules for these 7 minis, like any other full boxed team, or if they'll be more generic rules you can use with other DG marine models, like the Angels of Death team.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
I think that it's fair to say that MDF terrain is a massive downgrade on GW plastic terrain, whatever your thoughts on perceived value.

This sort of MDF terrain that can be disassembled and stored flat is a huge consideration for some people to whom space isn't available to store a set of permanently assembled terrain and thus is worth more to them.

Sure, but I guess what I was doing was comparing the detail that is possible on plastic GW kits to the absolute lack of detail on MDF kits.

A big part of why I have been in this hobby for so long is small details. I want detailed models & kits rather than tokens or boardgame pieces.

In this regard MDF is an absolutely massive downgrade for me, personally.

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deano2099 wrote:
...compared to the last starter set, is this....really a downgrade on this?

Yes, for the reasons mentioned above

 flaherty wrote:
Exactly right. It's a rich universe, but if you want to create gateway products, highlighting anything other than the characters from the most popular game of the year, about which 95% of the lore is based around is madness.

I like and collect quite a few xenos factions, but they're supporting characters. If you snapped your fingers and got rid of space marines, I doubt 40K would survive for long. Whereas you could squat the Tau and and Astra Militarum, and certainly their niche options, without having much impact on the universe.

Having some offerings for whales is fine, but make it easy for old-timers to recruit new fans!

 Lord Damocles wrote:
There's also this dinky little computer game around at the moment which happens to have the blue Space Marines in it...

Absurd thing to say. 40k is not "95%" space marine stories, and they are not the entity of the setting of you're making out. They have more books and miniatures that any other singular faction because they are the most popular, but that does not mean 40k is for them and nothing else matters Going "If you got rid of the factions and lore that makes up the 40k universe, then theres no effect on the 40k universe!" is just utter nonsense. All the factions matters, they're all part of what makes up what 40k is, just because some aren't as popular or feature less doesn't mean they don't contribute anything to the setting.

deano2099 wrote:

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
I think that it's fair to say that MDF terrain is a massive downgrade on GW plastic terrain, whatever your thoughts on perceived value.

It's a downgrade on what you get in Hivestorm, or you got in Octarius for sure. A big bunch of multi-level terrain. But compared to the last starter set, is this:



really a downgrade on this?



A little bit, maybe. But I don't think they're massively different.

I don't see how you could think they're not massively different. In terms of purpose in the game they're similar, but one is an extremely cheap, low quality, quite lazy undetailed bit of flat cardboard, while the other - despite not being overly substantial - is at least something that has had some effort put into it and can be painted up to look quite nice.

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
I think that it's fair to say that MDF terrain is a massive downgrade on GW plastic terrain, whatever your thoughts on perceived value.

This sort of MDF terrain that can be disassembled and stored flat is a huge consideration for some people to whom space isn't available to store a set of permanently assembled terrain and thus is worth more to them.

Sure, but I guess what I was doing was comparing the detail that is possible on plastic GW kits to the absolute lack of detail on MDF kits.

A big part of why I have been in this hobby for so long is small details. I want detailed models & kits rather than tokens or boardgame pieces.

In this regard MDF is an absolutely massive downgrade for me, personally.

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deano2099 wrote:
...compared to the last starter set, is this....really a downgrade on this?

Yes, for the reasons mentioned above

Then it's probably not a great leap to see why as a starter set, the opposite is true: less detail = easier to paint for beginners, with no painting at all for the scenery. Detailed kits are utterly out of place in a starter set.

 flaherty wrote:
Exactly right. It's a rich universe, but if you want to create gateway products, highlighting anything other than the characters from the most popular game of the year, about which 95% of the lore is based around is madness.

I like and collect quite a few xenos factions, but they're supporting characters. If you snapped your fingers and got rid of space marines, I doubt 40K would survive for long. Whereas you could squat the Tau and and Astra Militarum, and certainly their niche options, without having much impact on the universe.

Having some offerings for whales is fine, but make it easy for old-timers to recruit new fans!

 Lord Damocles wrote:
There's also this dinky little computer game around at the moment which happens to have the blue Space Marines in it...

Clearly we need a Bechdel Test for 40k. If two Xenos have a conversation about something that isn't Space Marines....

deano2099 wrote:

Then it's probably not a great leap to see why as a starter set, the opposite is true: less detail = easier to paint for beginners, with no painting at all for the scenery. Detailed kits are utterly out of place in a starter set.

By your logic, why include any miniatures in a starter set? I mean, beginners don't need to paint tokens do they?

Detailed models are utterly out of place in a starter set

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

I don't see how you could think they're not massively different. In terms of purpose in the game they're similar, but one is an extremely cheap, low quality, quite lazy undetailed bit of flat cardboard, while the other - despite not being overly substantial - is at least something that has had some effort put into it and can be painted up to look quite nice.

Different sure, but I don't see one as being inherently better. I see a bunch of fairly flat grey plastic versus a bunch of fairly flat painted wood. The plastic will look better once painted (and frankly, is flat enough that the arguments about fitting it back in the box are less relevant) but the MDF can be used without painting. I personally don't find painting terrain particularly rewarding but some do. I honestly don't see one as massively better than the other.

(But for Kill Team, I'd prefer some terrain with some verticality to it, which neither offers)


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 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:

deano2099 wrote:

Then it's probably not a great leap to see why as a starter set, the opposite is true: less detail = easier to paint for beginners, with no painting at all for the scenery. Detailed kits are utterly out of place in a starter set.

By your logic, why include any miniatures in a starter set? I mean, beginners don't need to paint tokens do they?

Fair point, if the game is good enough to stand-alone you could just include standees. Problem is the game isn't good enough. The unique selling point is the GW top-quality minis. GW's terrain? I hear people talking about that a lot less. And also by including models that some people might want, you broaden the appeal of the starter. You can sell to people who want to get into the game, and to people who want those currently unavailable minis. And to KT fans who want a Death Guard team.


There's a reason every starter set has marines or Stormcast. Hell, there's a reason Stormcast exist in the first place.

deano2099 wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

I don't see how you could think they're not massively different. In terms of purpose in the game they're similar, but one is an extremely cheap, low quality, quite lazy undetailed bit of flat cardboard, while the other - despite not being overly substantial - is at least something that has had some effort put into it and can be painted up to look quite nice.

Different sure, but I don't see one as being inherently better. I see a bunch of fairly flat grey plastic versus a bunch of fairly flat painted wood. The plastic will look better once painted (and frankly, is flat enough that the arguments about fitting it back in the box are less relevant) but the MDF can be used without painting. I personally don't find painting terrain particularly rewarding but some do. I honestly don't see one as massively better than the other.

(But for Kill Team, I'd prefer some terrain with some verticality to it, which neither offers)

Quite odd if that's what you see.You appear to be missing all the terrain that is not the 6 walls the box has (which even then, are not flat and have quite a bit of detail), like all the piles of stuff and the Ork barricades which have plenty of detail.

deano2099 wrote:
There's a reason every starter set has marines or Stormcast. Hell, there's a reason Stormcast exist in the first place.

Right, and it has little or nothing to do with my comment on plastic terrain vs MDF

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

deano2099 wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

I don't see how you could think they're not massively different. In terms of purpose in the game they're similar, but one is an extremely cheap, low quality, quite lazy undetailed bit of flat cardboard, while the other - despite not being overly substantial - is at least something that has had some effort put into it and can be painted up to look quite nice.

Different sure, but I don't see one as being inherently better. I see a bunch of fairly flat grey plastic versus a bunch of fairly flat painted wood. The plastic will look better once painted (and frankly, is flat enough that the arguments about fitting it back in the box are less relevant) but the MDF can be used without painting. I personally don't find painting terrain particularly rewarding but some do. I honestly don't see one as massively better than the other.

(But for Kill Team, I'd prefer some terrain with some verticality to it, which neither offers)

Quite odd if that's what you see.You appear to be missing all the terrain that is not the 6 walls the box has (which even then, are not flat and have quite a bit of detail), like all the piles of stuff and the Ork barricades which have plenty of detail.

It's just a different aesthetic. I've no doubt if the MDF literally had the ork terrain stuff painted on it, so it was the same level of detail, the same people would still not like the MDF and the same people would still like the MDF.


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 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:

deano2099 wrote:
There's a reason every starter set has marines or Stormcast. Hell, there's a reason Stormcast exist in the first place.

Right, and it has little or nothing to do with my comment on plastic terrain vs MDF

You made two points in that post, I was addressing the second one with my second bit. I'll admit I didn't quote that bit as I assumed you'd be able to follow it. But I'm glad you agree on simpler models being better for starter sets.

Guess we are back discussing the "value".

MDF is not even close, so it's silly to put GW plastic on that level.

The reason for this post is that this MDF does not add immersion in comparison with detailed 3d plastic and unlike with plastic kits you cant cut bits and have unique terrain features. Furthermore this new material is not compatible with any plastic GW has done. One of the best plastic features in necromundas etc was the modularity.

So its not compatible, you cant alter it or use it for different purposes like basing, the design is boring (theres really complex and great MDF kits, but this is not it)... hell its so basic they could well just do something like Battle Systems cards. It would still hold less value than any plastic.

Easy to assemble and take apart? Well any plastic can do that too just better.

...are you just trying to see how many times you can fit the word "plastic" in your post there, Navarro?

deano2099 wrote:

You made two points in that post, I was addressing the second one with my second bit. I'll admit I didn't quote that bit as I assumed you'd be able to follow it. But I'm glad you agree on simpler models being better for starter sets.

Genuinely, what are you talking about?

When I said that GW should replace the minis in starter sets with tokens it was a joke to show your flawed logic RE detail not being required in a starter set.

I mean, of course GW aren't going to do that, because they are a miniatures company

I hate that you are making me spell this out to you, but such is life



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NAVARRO wrote:
Guess we are back discussing the "value".

MDF is not even close, so it's silly to put GW plastic on that level.

The reason for this post is that this MDF does not add immersion in comparison with detailed 3d plastic and unlike with plastic kits you cant cut bits and have unique terrain features. Furthermore this new material is not compatible with any plastic GW has done. One of the best plastic features in necromundas etc was the modularity.

So its not compatible, you cant alter it or use it for different purposes like basing, the design is boring (theres really complex and great MDF kits, but this is not it)... hell its so basic they could well just do something like Battle Systems cards. It would still hold less value than any plastic.

Easy to assemble and take apart? Well any plastic can do that too just better.

I feel exactly the same

the advantage of MDF would have been to have much more 3D terrain with different levels in the box than it would be possible with the classic GW frames

yet those are all in the same level and the advantage for the starter is simply that you can easily store it away because you won't use after the first games any more

not having the full rules either means this is more of a demo set rather than a starter with main thing going being the collectors edition models for "cheap"

Lack of full rules is a dealbreaker for me. Looks like the lite rules are the only ones in the downloads section. Gonna sit this edition out.