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juanonymous wrote:
This is probably spinning off topic and into speculation, but what if gretchin were to receive a built-in aura that worked like the kill team stratagem, only more limited to balance what would make the rest of our army basically invincible? Something similar to savior protocols

Sounds broken.

We should be forced to pick one grechin unit (or one gretchin-grabbing unit) to activate the power.

If it's automatic, the top tables would be grechin soup and we'd all be compelled to auto-take 400 models.

 Vitali Advenil wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

gungo wrote:
Is there anything in the kill team ork box that’s worth spending $60 for if I have the crane and enough burna/lootas?

Hell naw.

The ork kill team box set is laughably bad. Unless of course they have some awesome new rules for killteam we're not aware of, I guess.

What I'm inferring from the Kill Team teases so far is that cover will give the unit benefitting from it a negative to-hit modifier, or at least enable them to go to ground/dig in for it. Kommandos sound like they'll have an inherent ability to gain more of a negative to-hit modifier than usual in cover. Burnas obviously hit automatically with their ranged weapons. I can see the sense in adding both these to the Kill Team box, but ultimately I suspect Burnas will still be too expensive to be useful (until we get a codex with a price drop or Kill Teams has it's own points/power level system that makes them efficient) and at the end of the day more Boyz will probably be better.

I don't think the Kill Team box of Orks is even close to missing the mark as much as the Start Collecting! Orks box was.

 JimOnMars wrote:

juanonymous wrote:
This is probably spinning off topic and into speculation, but what if gretchin were to receive a built-in aura that worked like the kill team stratagem, only more limited to balance what would make the rest of our army basically invincible? Something similar to savior protocols

Sounds broken.

We should be forced to pick one grechin unit (or one gretchin-grabbing unit) to activate the power.

If it's automatic, the top tables would be grechin soup and we'd all be compelled to auto-take 400 models.

I don't think that would be the case. When grots had that ability it wasn't really that strong. we would find that after a certain point grots mobs wouldn't be worth more than X number of units. Really I see it as a buff to a CP farming unit. As far as 400 models.... I thought that was already the "only way to play".

 Glitcha wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Sit on objectives for 5 turns :/ Theyll have a hard time clearing 200 boyz

You say this but i watched a game over the weekend at a local ITC event and saw a knight army table a 200 ork army list in 4 turns.

Play slower.

 JimOnMars wrote:

juanonymous wrote:
This is probably spinning off topic and into speculation, but what if gretchin were to receive a built-in aura that worked like the kill team stratagem, only more limited to balance what would make the rest of our army basically invincible? Something similar to savior protocols

Sounds broken.

We should be forced to pick one grechin unit (or one gretchin-grabbing unit) to activate the power.

If it's automatic, the top tables would be grechin soup and we'd all be compelled to auto-take 400 models.

If properly balanced, though, maybe it would compel ork players to bring the otherwise seldom-seen gretchin to competitive play? Again speculation, but instituting something like a maximum amount of wounds that could be assigned to the grot unit, etc.

Just go back to the old rules where grots grant a cover save to a unit being shot at if the grot unit is between the firer and the target.

For every successful save, remove one grot.

they could have it so that you have to roll a 2+ to save a wound with a grot, but on a 1, "the grot rebels and bites the ork" or something - take an additional wound...that would combine a good save option, with GW's love of giving orks random risks of killing themselves, while also keeping it nice and fluffy, and giving the grots a bit of agency

...maybe the risk could get higher for every 10 grots in the mob or something...10 grots, fail on a 1, 1 additional wound...20 grots, fail on a 2, D3 additional wounds...30 grots, fail on a 3, D6 additional wounds

...that would eliminate too much abuse of the ability, while combining with the grots "dangerous in large numbers" theme...

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
See the bold and underlined bit? That should help with your confusion. I'm not talking about units that don't need protection because they are so cheap, or characters that don't need protection from Snipers because they are so tough. I'm on about our squishy ass Painboy and Meks with KFF, y'know, the prime targets for snipers?

I don't know about your games, but most eldar or SM players I play snipe my weird boyz first. First, they don't have 4+ armor, so there is a really good chance of killing them with a single unit of snipers, and second they are terrified of the thought of 3x d6 mortal wounds hitting their space marines or aspect warriors.

The Big Mek can be built out of the Meganobz kit by the way, it's written on the box and the current painboy clearly has a grot orderly on his model.

The big mek from the Meganobz kit is the MA big mek. There are no bits in that set to build a non-MA model.
As of 8th, the grot orderly is a seprate model. You cannot use that upgrade unless you have a grot on a base to put next to your pain boy. Therefore, the current model is insufficient.

So 2 CP a turn and 3 x 30 = 90 pts for making a single unit semi immune to fine (until the grots die, which isn't exactly going to take long). I could think of better stratagems.

First of all, 3x30 gretchin yield 5 CP, you can use the stratagem three times for the cost of one CP for 90 points.
I would also ask you to do the math on "until the grots die, which isn't exactly going to take long". I can't think of anything that's less than 300 points which plows through 30 gretchin within a single round of shooting without the help of the moral phase.

 Jidmah wrote:
Burna Boyz are point for point worse at shooting than Shoota Boyz. They're awful. This stratagem wouldn't change that. Their problem isn't just their squishyness, it's their lack of damage output. I liked your pun with "take the heat" though. Well played.

We had this argument before. You simply ignore the possibility that burna boyz will be worth fielding in the new codex.

 Jidmah wrote:
That's not what I claimed at all. You're acting as if CP is utterly worthless. You're also seemingly forgetting that you can only use the same stratagem once per phase. So if your Lootas are shielded by Grots, something else ISN'T.

This argument can be applied to every stratagem in the game. Having 225 points of lootaz alive instead of dead will outperform any two re-rolls you could have done instead.

Also dude, if you're up on a terrain piece overseeing the battlefield, it's gonna be highly unlikely you're within 2" of a Grot unit right...??

Seriously? Put one grot next to them, and then conga to all the objectives nearby. Once you've done that, use all remaining gretchin for area denial. Basic use of horde units.

Nawww, you knock me down just to build me back up huh? Honestly I don't think it helps all that much. We tend to spam our specialists so the enemy player will just target those that aren't protected by the stratagem.

We spam our specialists because otherwise the unit will get shot off the board and you have zero specialists the turn after.
My other army, DG has a stratagem which works really similar to this, it prevents units from shooting the unit you use the stratagem on unless it is the closest unit. I always use that on a unit of tripple plasma plague marines, so I can always count on having 3 plasma guns available. No need for redundancy at all.
It would be the same for a unit protected by gretchin shields. You could field one unit of 15 lootaz and be sure that they stick around for a turn or two. You would not need to field 45 lootaz to make sure to still have some long-range D2 shooting for turn 3.

I also play Evil Sunz, a transport is kinda built into my blood. Weirdboyz have already hurt them, I don't want them to become more redundant.

I don't think that fear is justified, as the gretchin shield would cater more to foot-slogging hordes. It's meant to allow foot-slogging hordes to field a bunch of units which have never been viable in their builds before.
The strength of transports should be both speed and protection.

Tank Bustas only have 18" range, on foot they're too slow and too easy to outmaneuver with that 5" move. Lootas as we've both said are normally perched in a building so won't be in range of the grots. Flash Gits have ammo runts as I've mentioned but you've sold me on the stratagem for them. Nobz I tend to run cheap and melee focused anyway.

If I sold you on a single unit, it's not worthless, right?
Just another idea: You could just run your gretchin in front of your horde to take charges from things like stealers or zerkers like some people do today. For 2CP you could also have those gretchin take all shots for your cheap nobz (even cheap nobz aren't actually that cheap), which would probably result in your enemy shooting boyz instead.

I don't know, this is all speculation anyway so there's no point getting upset over it. I wouldn't be too amazed if this were a stratagem but perhaps I'm not seeing something. I guess we're all assuming it'd only affect infantry right? If you could do it on ANY unit, then I'd be listening.

Bike or infantry is also quite common for stratagems. I wouldn't expect it to allow screening nauts though.

 Billagio wrote:
Burnas at 14 points is ridiculous. You could probably get a space marine with a flamer for that price.

I assume you're being hyperbolic for effect since a space marine with a flamer is 22 points. Although to be fair, that cost is also ridiculous. A space marine isn't worth 13 points and a flamer isn't worth 9 points.

Flamers are sort of underwhelming in general this edition, which is strange considering how many ways there are to stack negative to hit modifiers for some armies. All flame weapons should be "roll 2 dice and pick the highest result" when rolling for amount of shots and they should also ignore cover IMO.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Just go back to the old rules where grots grant a cover save to a unit being shot at if the grot unit is between the firer and the target.

For every successful save, remove one grot.

I don't think that would be very useful. It changes how cover saves work, which is that they don't exist just a pip to the save. so going from a 6+ to a 5+ I don't know if I'd be excited about that for the cost of a grot.
Maybe lootas standing in terrain moving their save down to a 4+ with the grots, maybe but even then I wouldn't like it if I just picked up the grot with no chance to save the grot and still, because my dice are crule, still fail a save. I've just given up 2 models.
If you mean just passing it off to the grots on a successful roll and let the grot worry about it. Then cool, I'd do that it worked before. But let me attempt to save the grot.

PiñaColada wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Burnas at 14 points is ridiculous. You could probably get a space marine with a flamer for that price.

I assume you're being hyperbolic for effect since a space marine with a flamer is 22 points. Although to be fair, that cost is also ridiculous. A space marine isn't worth 13 points and a flamer isn't worth 9 points.

Flamers are sort of underwhelming in general this edition, which is strange considering how many ways there are to stack negative to hit modifiers for some armies. All flame weapons should be "roll 2 dice and pick the highest result" when rolling for amount of shots and they should also ignore cover IMO.

My bad, too be honest I didnt look at the SM codex, I knew they were 13 points but assumed that flamers were free like in previous editions. Whoops.

fe40k wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Sit on objectives for 5 turns :/ Theyll have a hard time clearing 200 boyz

You say this but i watched a game over the weekend at a local ITC event and saw a knight army table a 200 ork army list in 4 turns.

Play slower.

That is not acceptable. Slow play is for losers.

Does the Flash Gitz's extra shooting phase work while embarked?

 Glitcha wrote:

fe40k wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
Sit on objectives for 5 turns :/ Theyll have a hard time clearing 200 boyz

You say this but i watched a game over the weekend at a local ITC event and saw a knight army table a 200 ork army list in 4 turns.

Play slower.

That is not acceptable. Slow play is for losers.

Don't slowplay and be a winner that always looses

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Does the Flash Gitz's extra shooting phase work while embarked?

Yes. It has no requirement but rolling a six, and you can do that while not being on the battlefield.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
Don't slowplay and be a winner that always looses

Most tournaments now punish slow play in some more or less efficient way.

 Jidmah wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
Don't slowplay and be a winner that always looses

Most tournaments now punish slow play in some more or less efficient way.

As they should. Slowplay is not a tactic, it's an exploit, and it's making people hate playing against orks when traditionally we've been a very fun army to play against.

Sounds like they need to give orks some love so we arnt forced to do that to win games

My usual Scrumgrod told me his nu-knights cost roughly 600 points each...Good lord. It's almost 2 to 1 for the price of a stompa. Really hope fora points drop and or more weapons/stat buffs. Stupid humies and their fancy stuff. grumble, grumble.

You could always threaten to destroy your opponent's miniatures unless he concedes if winning is that important to you.

 Jidmah wrote:
You could always threaten to destroy your opponent's miniatures unless he concedes if winning is that important to you.

Hey now that's not entirely fair.

It's a pretty sorry state of affairs when the Orks tactica thread response to "How to I beat Knights?" is "slow play". If that is our only viable tactic for beating a Knight army I simply won't play them. I don't mind losing but I'm not wasting my time playing a game I have no chance of winning.

 Jidmah wrote:
You could always threaten to destroy your opponent's miniatures unless he concedes if winning is that important to you.

Haha I've been working on destroying his armies for years. Some time the boys even pull it off!
We've been smashing armies together for about 17 years now. (reason I call him Scrumgrod ) We've probably got a tied score.
I wouldn't "destroy his miniatures" I've painted over half of them. Every few years I paint one of his new bought to win armies for him.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
You could always threaten to destroy your opponent's miniatures unless he concedes if winning is that important to you.

Hey now that's not entirely fair.

It's a pretty sorry state of affairs when the Orks tactica thread response to "How to I beat Knights?" is "slow play". If that is our only viable tactic for beating a Knight army I simply won't play them. I don't mind losing but I'm not wasting my time playing a game I have no chance of winning.

Deliberate slow play (stalling) is something that gets you disqualified and kicked out of tournaments in almost every other game that is regularly played in organized events. There is no reason to believe it to be OK in WH40k just because its tournament scene is currently at the state of a toddler doing its first steps.

If you think that fouls are an acceptable way of winning, why stop at stalling? Lock your opponent in the bathroom, hide one of his HQs and have him disqualified for presenting an illegal army, or annoy him all game to make him rage-quit.

 Jidmah wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
You could always threaten to destroy your opponent's miniatures unless he concedes if winning is that important to you.

Hey now that's not entirely fair.

It's a pretty sorry state of affairs when the Orks tactica thread response to "How to I beat Knights?" is "slow play". If that is our only viable tactic for beating a Knight army I simply won't play them. I don't mind losing but I'm not wasting my time playing a game I have no chance of winning.

Deliberate slow play (stalling) is something that gets you disqualified and kicked out of tournaments in almost every other game that is regularly played in organized events. There is no reason to believe it to be OK in WH40k just because its tournament scene is currently at the state of a toddler doing its first steps.

If you think that fouls are an acceptable way of winning, why stop at stalling? Lock your opponent in the bathroom, hide one of his HQs and have him disqualified for presenting an illegal army, or annoy him all game to make him rage-quit.

Agreed, slow playing is cheating, it is not a tactic.

 Jidmah wrote:
Deliberate slow play (stalling) is something that gets you disqualified and kicked out of tournaments in almost every other game that is regularly played in organized events. There is no reason to believe it to be OK in WH40k just because its tournament scene is currently at the state of a toddler doing its first steps.

If you think that fouls are an acceptable way of winning, why stop at stalling? Lock your opponent in the bathroom, hide one of his HQs and have him disqualified for presenting an illegal army, or annoy him all game to make him rage-quit.

You're preaching to the converted, I agree that it's cheating and it's bogus. It's not, however, got anyone kicked out of any tournaments. In the last GW organised event the Ork that won intentionally slow played. He won.

The problem I present to you is - what is the actual response to a Knight army? I've not seen anyone suggest anything other than slow play? Or is it "wait for the codex"?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Deliberate slow play (stalling) is something that gets you disqualified and kicked out of tournaments in almost every other game that is regularly played in organized events. There is no reason to believe it to be OK in WH40k just because its tournament scene is currently at the state of a toddler doing its first steps.

If you think that fouls are an acceptable way of winning, why stop at stalling? Lock your opponent in the bathroom, hide one of his HQs and have him disqualified for presenting an illegal army, or annoy him all game to make him rage-quit.

You're preaching to the converted, I agree that it's cheating and it's bogus. It's not, however, got anyone kicked out of any tournaments. In the last GW organised event the Ork that won intentionally slow played. He won.

The problem I present to you is - what is the actual response to a Knight army? I've not seen anyone suggest anything other than slow play? Or is it "wait for the codex"?

I thought that Ork player was disqualified?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Deliberate slow play (stalling) is something that gets you disqualified and kicked out of tournaments in almost every other game that is regularly played in organized events. There is no reason to believe it to be OK in WH40k just because its tournament scene is currently at the state of a toddler doing its first steps.

If you think that fouls are an acceptable way of winning, why stop at stalling? Lock your opponent in the bathroom, hide one of his HQs and have him disqualified for presenting an illegal army, or annoy him all game to make him rage-quit.

You're preaching to the converted, I agree that it's cheating and it's bogus. It's not, however, got anyone kicked out of any tournaments. In the last GW organised event the Ork that won intentionally slow played. He won.

The problem I present to you is - what is the actual response to a Knight army? I've not seen anyone suggest anything other than slow play? Or is it "wait for the codex"?

The only answer, and I MEAN the only answer is to run hide and tie up. play the objectives and just hope you can survive until the end of the game, don't slow play but don't even attempt to engage his army because he will liquidate your army before turn 5 is over. If you can hide in LOS blocking terrain for few turns you might win on objectives....but otherwise....we don't have any answers to Knights at the moment....literally none.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Deliberate slow play (stalling) is something that gets you disqualified and kicked out of tournaments in almost every other game that is regularly played in organized events. There is no reason to believe it to be OK in WH40k just because its tournament scene is currently at the state of a toddler doing its first steps.

If you think that fouls are an acceptable way of winning, why stop at stalling? Lock your opponent in the bathroom, hide one of his HQs and have him disqualified for presenting an illegal army, or annoy him all game to make him rage-quit.

You're preaching to the converted, I agree that it's cheating and it's bogus. It's not, however, got anyone kicked out of any tournaments. In the last GW organised event the Ork that won intentionally slow played. He won.

The problem I present to you is - what is the actual response to a Knight army? I've not seen anyone suggest anything other than slow play? Or is it "wait for the codex"?

With the optimal anti-ork load-out a single knight can kill ~30 ork models per turn, not considering KFF and FNP (though FNP is mostly useless due to all the D2 weapons). The usual army of 3 knights + 2 armingers is killing about two and a half units of boyz per turn, so you can bring 10 units of 30 boyz and last till turn 4 without actually being present at the table.
So the goal is to waste some of that killing power and last longer

KMK slow down that killing speed since every weapon can target only one unit, so a bunch of overkill is going to go into each single KMK and gretchin crew.

Maybe split a bunch of mobs up into units of 10 to provoke more overkill and mob them up when needed?

Unit of gretchin actually have a reason to exists when facing knights, since they can be used as roadblocks to prevent the knights from charging your boyz. Make sure the gap between the gretchin and the unit they are trying to protect is smaller than the knight's base and it will spend some time stomping on gretchin. Make sure they conga to a warboss or thrakka. Jumping a gretchin mob to spread out at max coherency to block knight movement will seriously limit the use of their secondary weapon systems, like meltas, flamers and the dreaded conflagration cannon (that's the trukk-sized flamer). Bonus points if you lose a grot to the harpoon weapon.

It's also not unreasonable to expect one knight to die when you throw everything at it. Given the choice, try to take out character knights, since they count as 10 models when holding objectives, which endangers your strategy of just sitting through the whole thing.

Outside of that, I don't think anything but characters is really worth bringing to fight knights, since every point spent on tank bustas, planes, or any other of our semi-decent units will only reduce the time it takes to wipe you out and nothing will actually help you kill knights faster.

so...for an anti-knight ork list, could extreme MSU-spam do the trick? seeing as they only have so many guns to unload...

1750 for tourney lists isn't it?...how about this?

Battalion 1
HQ
Big Mek - KFF, killchoppa, grot oiler, legendary fighter WLT (upgrades just using up remaining points really)
Big Mek - KFF
Troops
Boyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Boyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Boyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Boyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Boyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Boyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Fast Attack
Stormboyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Stormboyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Stormboyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Heavy Support
Mek Gunz - 6 KMK

Battalion 2
HQ
Big Mek - KFF
Weirdboy - "Da Jump"
Troops
Boyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Boyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Boyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Boyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Boyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Boyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Fast Attack
Stormboyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Stormboyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa
Stormboyz - 9 slugga/choppa, Nob with slugga/choppa

...effectively 28 units that have to be targeted...could probably quite effectively surround knights, or just hide several squads behind terrain, etc...try to win via objectives and just staying alive?

Could work, but you can't take that many stormboy units. Depends on the tourney of course.

ohh yeah, rule of 3 does count for those too of course. dammit...meh, more mek gunz instead of 3 of those stormboy squads then? vOv