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So I was checking out the official forums and I cam across a post from the Infinity GENCON tourney organizers in regards to house ruling out a tactic known as the "King Kong"
You can check the link for details on the tactic, but it boils down to using a model that is impersonating to block line of sight denying the use of template weapons (they can not directly or indirectly target a friendly model). This tactic was used to great effect in a Combined Army list that won the Interplanetary Tourney in Spain over the weekend.
I know how people can feel about the subject of WAAC coming from the GW-verse, but I am interested in starting a "CIVIL" debate on the subject in regards to infinity. For those of you who posted your thought over at CB please share here as there is some very useful tactical information in the thread on how to deal with threats like this.
Contents of first post
Spoiler:
After following the Spanish threads and some messaging from US players who attended the Interplanetary, I would like warn players if they hope to copy an unscrupulous Spanish tactic.
Known as the "King Kong" tactic where you bring an Avatar or Large model and park an impersonated Speculor killer in front of it to deter template weapons from hitting the Avatar.
The rules state, that you may not target a friendly trooper with a template weapon (direct or indirect).
So, by placing a "friendy" Speculo Killer close to an Avatar, you will have a very tough time targeting the Avatar with a template weapon and you cannot target the Speculor with a ML or LGL in the hopes of hitting the Avatar.
The Avatar is large and can see over the Speuclo, so if you are trying to discover the Speculo, chances are that the Avatar will be receiving normal rolls to fire at you.
I am not a fan of house rules, but I am less of a fan of players searching for exploits and cheesing their way to victory.
So, heads-up for the GenCon tournaments;
A. There will be NO table wide low viz zones. Table wide Low Viz is fine for campaigns, special scenarios but not randomized tables in a large event.
B. If anyone tries to cheese this Avatar-Speculo tactic, be warned you are now subject to the following house rule;
"If a 'friendly' model begins the game in the enemy's side of the table and/or close to an enemy model (e.g., parking an impersonated Speculo next to an Avatar) and the 'friendly' model does not attempt to move away or attack the enemy model for more than 3 orders, your army ascertains that this 'friendly' trooper is not what it seems and is immediately discovered, provided any of your models have LoS to the 'friendly' model."
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/07/29 16:17:03
What's preventing the firing player from angling the template so that it doesn't hit the impersonator model? There is a pretty large difference in base size from an Avatar and a Speculor... (and how many factions will wan't to engage a TAG with a template weapon anyway?!)
Yes, this "tactic", like many others in Infinity will catch a player off guard the first time that he has to face it, but it only takes two seconds to counter it, there is absolutely no need to house rule this away and there really is nothing WAAC about it.
What's preventing the firing player from angling the template so that it doesn't hit the impersonator model? There is a pretty large difference in base size from an Avatar and a Speculor... (and how many factions will wan't to engage a TAG with a template weapon anyway?!)
Yes, this "tactic", like many others in Infinity will catch a player off guard the first time that he has to face it, but it only takes two seconds to counter it, there is absolutely no need to house rule this away and there really is nothing WAAC about it.
From what I have read yes they can, but I think the exact weapon being attempted was a HRL used by Phoenix, I am not spun up on the rules enough to have a firm grasp on how this all plays out.
What's preventing the firing player from angling the template so that it doesn't hit the impersonator model? There is a pretty large difference in base size from an Avatar and a Speculor... (and how many factions will wan't to engage a TAG with a template weapon anyway?!)
Yes, this "tactic", like many others in Infinity will catch a player off guard the first time that he has to face it, but it only takes two seconds to counter it, there is absolutely no need to house rule this away and there really is nothing WAAC about it.
From what I have read yes they can, but I think the exact weapon being attempted was a HRL used by Phoenix, I am not spun up on the rules enough to have a firm grasp on how this all plays out.
Ok, I didn't wan't to read the whole 5 pages of the thread, so I just read the first post.
Still don't see the problem though, Phoenix could still have shot his HRL in Speculative Shot mode to avoid hitting the Speculo... Maybe I'm missing something...
The HRL is a direct fire weapon that produces a template on hit. If he targets the avatar the Speculo falls into the template which is an illegal shot.
You could angle flamer templates to avoid the Speculo, but I Don't think you get the luxury of moving the blast template around on a successful Rocket Launcher shot.
For referance some rules out of the wiki
Rocket Launcher
Support weapon, with B 2, which shoots FIRE Special Ammunition, placing a Circular Template at the point of impact. There are two versions of this weapon, light and heavy, with different values for Distance and Damage. The Rocket Launcher is a BS weapon that cannot be used in CC
And how the template works
- When does a template affects to a miniature?
When the miniature has its base totally or partially under the Template. So, when there is any measurable portion of base under the template it is affected.
- What happens if a directly placed template (such as a template placed from a Light Flamethrower or Missile Launcher) or indirectly placed template (such as Grenades thrown with Speculative Shot, but not those that Deviate) accidentally hits friendly or allied models?
Shot gets cancelled,except for smoke grenades.
Automatically Appended Next Post: AS for speculative, from what I know Rocket Launchers can not be fired as Speculative shots only parabolic weapons i.e. Grenades and GLs
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also maybe I should have put this topic in the rules forum lol. It kinda is a grey area between tactics and rules.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/07/29 17:06:33
Still don't see the problem though, Phoenix could still have shot his HRL in Speculative Shot mode to avoid hitting the Speculo... Maybe I'm missing something...
Yeah, how speculative shot works =/
Anyway, to repeat my opinion posted on the main site, I'm highly approve of Magno's stance on "King Kong". This isn't cheesy because its powerful - as mentioned earlier, who counts on missiles/rockets to handle the Avatar? - but because its using rules in a silly, exploitative manner, and not fitting into the spirit of the game as my highly subjective opinion believes it to be.
Infinity has differentiated itself from most wargames by not being a combination game, and given there are other options (good and bad) for playing such games, the further it stays away from "just counter their cheese with your cheese" or "if everything is overpowered, nothing is", the better its gonna be.
By coming down hard on this sort of thing now, we can ensure a gaming culture which discourages cheese, where players inclined to such shenanigans will be shown the various other games on offer where they can flex their list-building muscles in an appropriate fashion.
Still don't see the problem though, Phoenix could still have shot his HRL in Speculative Shot mode to avoid hitting the Speculo... Maybe I'm missing something...
Yeah, how speculative shot works =/
Thanks for that snide remark, especially after NuclearMessiah explained how it works...
Anyway, to repeat my opinion posted on the main site, I'm highly approve of Magno's stance on "King Kong". This isn't cheesy because its powerful - as mentioned earlier, who counts on missiles/rockets to handle the Avatar? - but because its using rules in a silly, exploitative manner, and not fitting into the spirit of the game as my highly subjective opinion believes it to be.
Infinity has differentiated itself from most wargames by not being a combination game, and given there are other options (good and bad) for playing such games, the further it stays away from "just counter their cheese with your cheese" or "if everything is overpowered, nothing is", the better its gonna be.
Why is it silly and exploitative? Why can't the Speculo be in a situation where he is just pretending to be a hostage / human shield of the Avatar?
And with things in the game like Haking Device Plus + GMLs, Smoke Grenades + MV Lvl3's, etc I don't get where you are getting the idea that Infinity is not ALSO a combination game...
By coming down hard on this sort of thing now, we can ensure a gaming culture which discourages cheese, where players inclined to such shenanigans will be shown the various other games on offer where they can flex their list-building muscles in an appropriate fashion.
I think this is the single most elitist piece of "opinion" that I've ever read outside of a GW white knight argument and here I was thinking that the Infinity player community was all inclusive and welcomed all players because the game was strong enough to stand on its own merits without players having to self-police themselves like they are force to do in bad games like GW's.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/07/30 10:23:25
I don't really care about this combo thing, but I can see how its problematic. Having ODD, you'd generally want to burn it off or something, but fire stuff comes with templates. So having the speculo in template range of the avatar preventing use of templates... Would kinda suck. But I don't know how much I'd be bothered by it. Its something I'd have to see in action to make a call on. I don't know about banning it though, seems a bit off to do that and its quite situational.
And dakkamite isn't exactly a refugee. He was here long before he started infinity.
I don't think you can be WAAC with infinity. There's certainly somethings that feel that way the first time you encounter it, but there's nothing that's impossible/excessively hard to deal with
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/30 10:03:15
If your attack is going too well, you have walked into an ambush
I think this is the single most elitist piece of "opinion" that I've ever read outside of a GW white knight argument and here I was thinking that the Infinity player community was all inclusive and welcomed all players because the game was strong enough to stand on its own merits without players having to self-police themselves like they are force to do in bad games like GW's.
Let me guess, with that kind of attitude you must be one of the "refuges" from the official Infinity forums that helped create the awesome atmosphere for which they are known, right?
Put your tits on ice man - Warmachine, Malifaux, MtG, 40k etc are all about the combo builds, and all I'm saying here is that if people want to play that way, they should go play the games (ie, practically all of the other wargames) that are designed to be played that way - not the one thats not.
If you disagree, go stack blessings for a 2++ rerollable or some gak, its all good. Just do it in 40k alright?
I think this is the single most elitist piece of "opinion" that I've ever read outside of a GW white knight argument and here I was thinking that the Infinity player community was all inclusive and welcomed all players because the game was strong enough to stand on its own merits without players having to self-police themselves like they are force to do in bad games like GW's.
Let me guess, with that kind of attitude you must be one of the "refuges" from the official Infinity forums that helped create the awesome atmosphere for which they are known, right?
Put your tits on ice man - Warmachine, Malifaux, MtG, 40k etc are all about the combo builds, and all I'm saying here is that if people want to play that way, they should go play the games (ie, practically all of the other wargames) that are designed to be played that way - not the one thats not.
If you disagree, go stack blessings for a 2++ rerollable or some gak, its all good. Just do it in 40k alright?
Infinity also has combos. Maybe if you don't wan't to play the game like its designers intended its you that should go play other games?
I have to agree with Phantom here, even if I see the move as dirty, it frankly broke absolutely no rules in the process and is very situational at best, I mean it was just bad luck the mission was annihilation.
The fundamental problem of this whole mess is how powerful the Avatar is, I mean he is without a doubt the single most powerful unit in Infinity. He has Arm 10 and a BS 15 and OOD so you get a -6 to hit. To drop his OOD you need to hit him with flame or E/M, but if you get within 8 inches (no LoF needed) he will sepistor you, hell even if you don't get close there is a 75% chance he is just going to punk you in ARO with his multi HMG.
Like I said the tactic is dirty because it removes the only "reasonably" safe way to drop the Avatar's OOD by hitting him with a Rocket from a safe distance.
I think this is the single most elitist piece of "opinion" that I've ever read outside of a GW white knight argument and here I was thinking that the Infinity player community was all inclusive and welcomed all players because the game was strong enough to stand on its own merits without players having to self-police themselves like they are force to do in bad games like GW's.
Let me guess, with that kind of attitude you must be one of the "refuges" from the official Infinity forums that helped create the awesome atmosphere for which they are known, right?
Put your tits on ice man - Warmachine, Malifaux, MtG, 40k etc are all about the combo builds, and all I'm saying here is that if people want to play that way, they should go play the games (ie, practically all of the other wargames) that are designed to be played that way - not the one thats not.
If you disagree, go stack blessings for a 2++ rerollable or some gak, its all good. Just do it in 40k alright?
Infinity also has combos. Maybe if you don't wan't to play the game like its designers intended its you that should go play other games?
Theres a world of difference between games that have models that work well together, and games where the whole point is to create exponential synergy between unit choices.
If people want to play the latter, they can do so, in one of the many games that cater to that playstyle. If N3 throws INYLIY to the wind and turns Infinity into a combo orientated game then I'll be packing my bags and finding something else myself.
I have to agree with Phantom here, even if I see the move as dirty, it frankly broke absolutely no rules in the process and is very situational at best, I mean it was just bad luck the mission was annihilation.
Its not this specific combination of units thats the problem. I'd never toss a low B weapon downrange at a BS15 ODD W3 model unless I was desperate, and effectively raising the Avatars price to 200pts to 'protect' it from such is a ripoff IMO. Its purely what this combination represents - the idea of turning infinity into a combo-orientated game thats the issue. Someone takes a Speculo to try and gank heavy targets that can threaten the Avatar? Cool. Someone takes a speculo purely because it herp derps certain weapons and makes them unusable against it? Not cool.
I think this is the single most elitist piece of "opinion" that I've ever read outside of a GW white knight argument and here I was thinking that the Infinity player community was all inclusive and welcomed all players because the game was strong enough to stand on its own merits without players having to self-police themselves like they are force to do in bad games like GW's.
Let me guess, with that kind of attitude you must be one of the "refuges" from the official Infinity forums that helped create the awesome atmosphere for which they are known, right?
Put your tits on ice man - Warmachine, Malifaux, MtG, 40k etc are all about the combo builds, and all I'm saying here is that if people want to play that way, they should go play the games (ie, practically all of the other wargames) that are designed to be played that way - not the one thats not.
If you disagree, go stack blessings for a 2++ rerollable or some gak, its all good. Just do it in 40k alright?
Infinity also has combos. Maybe if you don't wan't to play the game like its designers intended its you that should go play other games?
Theres a world of difference between games that have models that work well together, and games where the whole point is to create exponential synergy between unit choices.
Meet Pi-Well, he wants to have a talk.
Peter: As we all know, Christmas is that mystical time of year when the ghost of Jesus rises from the grave to feast on the flesh of the living! So we all sing Christmas Carols to lull him back to sleep.
Bob: Outrageous, How dare he say such blasphemy. I've got to do something.
Man #1: Bob, there's nothing you can do.
Bob: Well, I guess I'll just have to develop a sense of humor.
I'm sure, being a rational AI, he'd also agree that his existance does not transform Infinity into a game of exponential synergy combo lists as mentioned before.
Just because X unit exists which can affect Y unit, does not make such combinations the focal point of the game. Otherwise, there would certainly be far more items like the ODD field available, and "It's not your list its you" would not be the philosophy let alone the slogan of the game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/30 21:19:48
Dakkamite wrote: I'm sure, being a rational AI, he'd also agree that his existance does not transform Infinity into a game of exponential synergy combo lists as mentioned before.
Just because X unit exists which can affect Y unit, does not make such combinations the focal point of the game. Otherwise, there would certainly be far more items like the ODD field available, and "It's not your list its you" would not be the philosophy let alone the slogan of the game.
Just be couse you don't see them does not mean they aren't there. Van also another one, their you just have to look. Just becouse you don't like combo, doesn't make you right. The if you don't like it play something else line makes you look like a dick.
Peter: As we all know, Christmas is that mystical time of year when the ghost of Jesus rises from the grave to feast on the flesh of the living! So we all sing Christmas Carols to lull him back to sleep.
Bob: Outrageous, How dare he say such blasphemy. I've got to do something.
Man #1: Bob, there's nothing you can do.
Bob: Well, I guess I'll just have to develop a sense of humor.
Figure I might as well chime in for my uninformed and un-asked for opinion.
One thing that I found rather interesting was that during the discussion on the official forums it came up repeatedly that this strategy is "more gamey" than other "power tactics" (Preta swarm or killing a LT then engaging the opponent in CC so he doesn't have 2 orders to elect a new LT the next turn) because it doesn't have any trade-offs or downsides to prevent you from using it. I don't necessarily agree with this. The trade-off is that you are accepting the fact your Speculo (a very impressive and dangerous model in its own right) will put in absolutely 0 useful work that game other than being a convenient living shield. If you used it in the traditional sense then you might be able to eliminate the threats to your Avatar completely rather than just prevent them from being effective.
Another thing is that this happened at the exact worst case scenario possible. A template weapon to try and take down the Avatar in an Annihilation mission where it can't be played around. I would at least wait to see if this becomes an issue in the wider tournament scene before dropping the ban-hammer. This is why I like a multiple list format for tournaments. Since people know this strategy is out there you can stuff some speculative shot weapons into one of your lists. Even smoke would work. Drop smoke to cover the Avatar but not the Speculo then discover all day long, since even with all the crazy combat gear the EI crammed onto that platform it neglected to give it a MSV.
Lastly I will say that I find the argument that it's "cheesy" or "unrealistic" to not be as compelling as it could be. The assumption is that the Speculo is just impersonating a random guy who's hanging out giving the Avatar high fives. Instead think of it as a friendly soldier (maybe higher ranking than some of the people who might potentially shoot at him/her) literally being grabbed by the Avatar and held out in front of it. It's not an unreasonable interpretation of the "can not shoot friendlies" rule that weapons in Infinity have some kind of hard coded lock to prevent friendly fire incidents (which is smart from a real life perspective, although not being able to turn them off is questionable) which physically don't let you shoot at the "hostage" even if you want to.
So I guess I wrote a little more than I was planning to. In summary: I think it's a really stupid tactic that I wouldn't consider fun or ever really want to use myself. That said, it's not the end of the world and there are a few ways to get around it (including just ignoring the combo or killing whatever else the opponent has on the field if the mission lets you do that). Plus it means the opponent is effectively ensuring 39/1 points of their army won't be killing anything. As far as I can tell the sky is indeed remaining in its assigned location with no signs of falling anytime soon.
Plus since a new edition is almost upon us we have no idea if this strategy will even exist in the future. Hopefully they do something about impersonation since it is kind of hard to discover at the moment. I just saw how camouflage got completely worked over and re-done, so CB is obviously making some pretty substantial changes.
Like watching other people play video games (badly) while blathering about nothing in particular? Check out my Youtube channel: joemamaUSA!
BrianDavion wrote: Between the two of us... I think GW is assuming we the players are not complete idiots.
Rapidly on path to becoming the world's youngest bitter old man.
Just be couse you don't see them does not mean they aren't there.
This strawman stuff needs to stop - people need to back up and actually read my posts, because I'm not saying there are no synergistic units, just that combo play is not the focus of the game.
Van also another one, their you just have to look.
Same with mines and camo, camo and other camo, Inspiring Leadership and irregular models, smoke and mobile units, strategos and almost anything, link teams and low B weapons, hell, engineers and models with STR... combinations can exist in a number of forms, but the mere existence of models that function well together doesn't make them the focal point of the game.
Just becouse you don't like combo, doesn't make you right
Mate, this is an opinion thread, asking for peoples opinions on "WAAC and Infinity" - "Right" doesn't come into it.
To quote myself earlier, "...but because its using rules in a silly, exploitative manner, and not fitting into the spirit of the game as my highly subjective opinion believes it to be.".
. The if you don't like it play something else line makes you look like a dick.
I stand by that all the same. We need more games that play differently like Infinity, not just differently stylized versions of the same thing - if I want to play magic (and I do), I'll play magic (and I do), not Infinity, and I'll kindly ask anyone else wanting the same thing to do so as well.
This game is what it is - in the same way that this is an opinion thread, not a circlejerk or an echo chamber, Infinity is a game about what you do on the table, not about what combos you bring and how they stack up to your opponents combos, so leave that to the many other games that play that way by design, and don't bring it into the game that I and many others came to to get away from that sort of play.
EDIT:
Spoiler:
Pacific wrote: Seems that Infinity, like some other games, has its proportion of players that need to get laid..
Well, at least the name for it is amusing !
Alright guys, time to pack up our little battle hooker figurines and go get laid now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/31 02:40:35
The existence of combos makes it the focus of the game. You don't randomly select models to use, you design lists around making them work together, i.e. combos.
That, to date, the combos available have not reached the same relative power levels as the ones available in Warmachine or 40K doesn't mean that making combos isn't important. This is just one more combo on the heap, only standing out because it's perceived (rightly or wrongly) as a step up in power.
Like a lot of exploits, the King Kong tactic is an interesting piece of emergent gameplay that is unfortunately kind of poisonous to the meta. Kudos to the bloke that realized it (honestly, it is crazy that it took this long, but then Infinity still has a pretty small player base) but it appears to very much be an unintended consequence of the way the rules are written.
But more than that, it means that a great many forces lose out on tactics they may have used against one of the most potent units in the game. Have a good shot with the HRL (maybe you took the time to circle around behind for a normal), nope not burning the ODD off today. Manage to get a nice clear shot with the missile launcher? Not today!
Basically it makes the Avatar (already a bear to kill with ODD and ARM10/BTS-9) immune to direct-only ranged blast weapons (which are both fairly good against it when you can manage proper shots). Most other methods of stripping the ODD require getting close (and risking sepsitorization on a wide range of troops) or doing it the hard way (either direct fire with a visor, or direct fire without).
And all because a model which is intended to be capering around in the back lines of the enemy is pretending to be a friendly with a preternatural skill for blocking one's shots. And this can be up and ready on turn 1. Hell you can even devise it in such a way that the Avatar gets a clear field of vision while the Speculo remains out of side but close enough to continue blocking direct blast weapons from being able to target. Considering the Avatar comes with the best defenses in the game, a weapon with enough range and burst to sit back and have a ball, and a natural no-go zone for any and all units with a cube? This particular combo punches, perhaps, a bit over its already hefty weight.
It is one of those tactics the disproportionately favours a very specific set of units (Haqq can't quite pull it off with what they have) and takes a not insignificant set of possible counters completely off the table. It is the ultimate expression of work compression. The Avatar is already a bear to remove since it requires many orders to strip off enough protection just to make conventional removal methods worthwhile. It already forces a disproportionate amount of orders to be spent counteracting it, and with King Kong online it now forces even more orders to neutralize. Causing the enemy to bleed orders in disporportion to those you have spent is the ultimate expression of Infinity's key to victory (which is, incidentally why LoL is often a death knell in most games, since it is basically forcing your opponent to sink all their orders in to not doing a damn thing).
The Avatar already does that just by existing. This tactic takes it over the moon, and while clever, CB would be wise to make sure this exploit is harder to pull off in N3. There are definitely a few ways it could go. They could increase the State of Impersonation by one level every turn they end within the ZoC of a friendly unit (thus putting a maximum limit on how long an arrangement like this can last), and perhaps disallow them from setting up within their own deployment zone or even table half (the former would be my preference). So this limits impersonation models from starting close to their own lines (certainly logical given their modus operandi) and makes them more suspicious if they stand close to the enemy without being treated as a hostile. Alternatively, being able to freely place the template so that the original target is at least under it would help (at least with the L/HRL, the ML would lose AP in this case). Hell, even giving mechanics allowing folks to shoot even if a friendly is in the way would probably do it. Basically, even if it remains a thing in the twilight of 2nd Edition, it should stop being a thing in N3 since it just isn't healthy for the meta (whether in or out of ITS).
Just depends on the definition of combo, maybe I've been using the wrong term?
Running multiple Infiltrators w/ a board watching link team so you can saturate and safely claim the objectives could be called a combo as well. That sort of thing I've got no problem with!
I can see a similar use by putting a Fiday on top of a Maghariba Guard. It's even easier to pull off and more order efficient because of Braces. The Maghariba isn't a slouch to kill either, with ARM 8 and BTS -6, plus even easier to gain cover for thanks to its low stature.
But I think I'd rather the chaos a Fiday can cause than just using it as a way to ward off missile attacks.
But yeah, combos have been part of the game for a long time. One that immediately comes to mind is MSV2/3 units and smoke equipped units. Use smoke to block enemy LoS then use a MSV unit to see through and shoot with impunity? Combo. You're taking two units specifically to use one units ability to maximise another units ability. There's not many, but they're there.
I see the King Kong tactic as clever, but unfortunately one of those tricks that exponentially increases the toughness of the toughest unit in the game by making it practically immune to its best counters. It's also not something I can see fixed without heavy changes to Impersonation, which would potentially require recosting of Speculos and Fidays.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/31 06:37:42
Yeah MSV+Smoke is one such combo, and between 1st and 2nd edition it did receive a nerf in the form of getting reaction fire through smoke (basically turning smoke in to a camo first-strike attack; I wonder if N3 will change this considering the changes to camo). You also have the Nomad GML list which is relatively recent. Hacking is changing so that one may see some kind of change as well since it is a bit non-interactive and not super fun to be on the receiving end of. The various AVA T warband lists may also count, but have seldom come up because many folks are too cheap to spend that much on an army. But a Kum list was really hard to face if you didn't know about it in advance. Sadly that one is a bit harder to stop outside of limiting the availability of cheap troops (or by reducing the amount of clutter a table needs to be fair, so N3 may help that side of things out).
Infinity may be less full of cutesy named tactics than some games, but it definitely has its convergences around the edges and in the past they have been nerfed and or eliminated altogether. King Kong is probably among the worst simply because it doesn't really have a hard counter outside of just spending more orders and hoping for the best (even knowing about it in advance simply tells you not to waste points on blast weaponry).
Nomad GML can be taken down with a good defensive hacker, and MSV+Smoke is defeated by your own MSV or the ever present SS2 on the field. King Kong is defeated by killing the Speculo. But the Speculo can stay out of sight and become incredibly hard to remove if the player wants to keep it around. The best counter to one unit sticking close to another is a blast weapon, but the tactic precludes that from being an option at all. And an ODD makes dealing with the Avatar directly quite difficult. If it gets a good position, the fact that it is carrying one of the most devastatingly effective weapons in the current edition just makes it a pain to face.
But at least N3 makes getting under the optimal range of an HMG a good idea and now MSV1's (most likely) negate a bit of ODD. So possible happy days.
