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Eye of Terror

There's rumors lockdowns are about to soften in my area. People are talking about games again and I'm thinking about CSM.

According to 40k Stats, melee armies are doing well in tournaments. Anyone finding success with a pure melee army?

The list I have in mind would build around 2 Lords of Skulls with 80+ Cultists, cc Helbrutes and Disco Lords / Dark Apostles for HQs. Just don't have enough of a sense of 9th to know if it would work in most games.





   
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2 LOS make no sense, because it costs you 6 CP, you need two SHAUX detachments, and the LOS dont gain detachment abilities. Running 3 LOS in a superheavy detachment will cost you 3CP, the same as 1 LOS, in 1 SHAUX detachment. Terrain is a hard counter to titanic units, a simple barricade, or fuel pipe, is a road block for them. They must subtract 2" from their movement, and cant end their move on top of it. They cant hide behind dense cover, obscuring, because they have 18+ wounds.
   
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 techsoldaten wrote:
There's rumors lockdowns are about to soften in my area. People are talking about games again and I'm thinking about CSM.

According to 40k Stats, melee armies are doing well in tournaments. Anyone finding success with a pure melee army?

The list I have in mind would build around 2 Lords of Skulls with 80+ Cultists, cc Helbrutes and Disco Lords / Dark Apostles for HQs. Just don't have enough of a sense of 9th to know if it would work in most games.






One melee CSM list I saw that did extremely well in a recent tournament ran 3 max squads of 20 slanaash possessed. It took world bearers, with master of possession to ensure that Cursed earth or warp time went off. It then souped in a bit of Slanaash Daemons mainly for the HQs to give the possessed advance and charge. It was a super aggressive list that could obliterate a list that wasn't prepared for it.

It didn't charge everything across the board. It would hide all the possessed behind obsuring. Then it would use warp time plus advance and charge to send the possessed in successive waves across the board to tag everything in combat and kill stuff. The first wave would reliably kill all blocking chaff. Then the second and third wave would go in and finish off the rest of the army behind the chaff. The guy got close to full points for almost all of his games. Only had 1 loss which he still scored like 70 points or something.
   
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 p5freak wrote:
2 LOS make no sense, because it costs you 6 CP, you need two SHAUX detachments, and the LOS dont gain detachment abilities. Running 3 LOS in a superheavy detachment will cost you 3CP, the same as 1 LOS, in 1 SHAUX detachment. Terrain is a hard counter to titanic units, a simple barricade, or fuel pipe, is a road block for them. They must subtract 2" from their movement, and cant end their move on top of it. They cant hide behind dense cover, obscuring, because they have 18+ wounds.

A Super Heavy Detachment costs 6CP if it contains any TITANIC units so 3 and 2 LOS cost the same, but 1 only costs 3CP.
   
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Eye of Terror

p5freak wrote:2 LOS make no sense, because it costs you 6 CP, you need two SHAUX detachments, and the LOS dont gain detachment abilities. Running 3 LOS in a superheavy detachment will cost you 3CP, the same as 1 LOS, in 1 SHAUX detachment. Terrain is a hard counter to titanic units, a simple barricade, or fuel pipe, is a road block for them. They must subtract 2" from their movement, and cant end their move on top of it. They cant hide behind dense cover, obscuring, because they have 18+ wounds.

Yeah, I think I could come up with another model to fill out a super heavy detachment. Would not be a LOS but something else.

Bit it sounds like you're saying obscuring terrain is a Titanic killer. Good to know.

Eldenfirefly wrote:One melee CSM list I saw that did extremely well in a recent tournament ran 3 max squads of 20 slanaash possessed. It took world bearers, with master of possession to ensure that Cursed earth or warp time went off. It then souped in a bit of Slanaash Daemons mainly for the HQs to give the possessed advance and charge. It was a super aggressive list that could obliterate a list that wasn't prepared for it.

It didn't charge everything across the board. It would hide all the possessed behind obsuring. Then it would use warp time plus advance and charge to send the possessed in successive waves across the board to tag everything in combat and kill stuff. The first wave would reliably kill all blocking chaff. Then the second and third wave would go in and finish off the rest of the army behind the chaff. The guy got close to full points for almost all of his games. Only had 1 loss which he still scored like 70 points or something.

This is useful. Do you remember what tournament?

Would like to know if that list featured any anti-tank at all. My general impression of 9th is mobility / large squads beats well-rounded squads.

   
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++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Chaos – Chaos Space Marines) [86 PL, -4CP, 1,685pts] ++

Configuration +

Legion: Word Bearers

Stratagems +

Gifts of Chaos (2 Relics) [-3CP]

+ No Force Org Slot +

Dark Disciples [1 PL, 10pts]: No Chaos Mark
. 2x Dark Disciple: 2x Close combat weapon

+ HQ +

Dark Apostle [5 PL, -1CP, 80pts]: Apostle of the Dark Council, Benediction of Darkness, Epistle of Lorgar, Mark of Khorne, Soultearer Portent, Wrathful Entreaty

Master of Possession [5 PL, 95pts]: 4. Master of the Union, Cursed Earth, Infernal Power, Mark of Nurgle, Mutated Invigoration, The Malefic Tome, Warlord

Sorcerer [6 PL, 90pts]: Baleful Icon, Bolt pistol, Force sword, Mark of Nurgle, Prescience, Warptime

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 60pts]: Mark of Khorne
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun: 9x Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 60pts]: Mark of Khorne
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun: 9x Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 60pts]: Mark of Khorne
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun: 9x Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

+ Elites +

Possessed [20 PL, 410pts]: Icon of Excess, Mark of Slaanesh
. 20x Possessed: 20x Horrifying Mutations

Possessed [20 PL, 410pts]: Icon of Excess, Mark of Slaanesh
. 20x Possessed: 20x Horrifying Mutations

Possessed [20 PL, 410pts]: Icon of Excess, Mark of Slaanesh
. 20x Possessed: 20x Horrifying Mutations

++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Chaos – Daemons) [15 PL, 310pts] ++

Configuration +

Chaos Allegiance: Slaanesh

+ HQ +

Syll’Esske [11 PL, 230pts] Delightful agonies
Hysteric frenzy

+ Troops +

Daemonettes [4 PL, 80pts]: Alluress, Instrument of Chaos
. 9x Daemonette: 9x Piercing claws

++ Total: [101 PL, 7CP, 1,995pts] ++
this is the list

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/16 21:13:44


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Yup, Blackmage showed the list. His possessed was his anti-tank.
   
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60 buffed possesed kill anything.

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Over/under 50% they go to 10 per squad come the new Codex?

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Eye of Terror

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Over/under 50% they go to 10 per squad come the new Codex?

I, too, sense a nerf awaits.

But thank you all for answering my question. That's quite a list.

   
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yes perhaps will be, dg codex is the example.Is not a nerf after all, depend how codex is made.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/17 18:37:04


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In any case, CSM codex not coming out quite yet.
   
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Eye of Terror

Eldenfirefly wrote:
In any case, CSM codex not coming out quite yet.

Still haven't played 9th because of lockdowns.

Hard for me to understand the specific reasons Harlequins, Slaanesh Daemons and Sisters are so powerful. It's usually characterized as clearing objectives, board control, racking up points, etc.

A while back, I talked about how important Black Legion's World Killers Stratagem may prove to be. The more I think about it - 60 buffed Possessed shrieking across the board but the real threat is a 10-man Cultist unit that walks up and tells you BTFO. Council of Traitors would let you put a Warlord Trait on a Dark Apostle and the Sorcerer, but you'd have to take a CL in place of a MoP.

I wonder how that would fare against some of the other top lists.

   
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Well, warp time and cursed earth was very important to get off. So, that list took world bearers because they have a strat to gaurantee psychic goes off, and it can't be denied. Because otherwise, possessed are just T4, 2W with 5++. Oh, because he took slanaash daemons and CSM slanaash, so he can also cast delightful agonies twice. Its considered two different spells.

Actually, that list was great on scoring. It scored max points in 3 or 4 out of 7 games it won that tourney or something like that. And it flat out obliterated armies who weren't prepared.

I remember watching one game in youtube where they came back to check on it. It was facing a classic SM list (Salamanders or something). One wave up, tag the entire midboard, wipe out all the SM troops on the midboard. By turn 3, it was this big wave of possessed converging onto the few shooting units left on the board which were all backed into a small corner with nowhere left to run.

I think it was a tabling by turn 4. The list didn't just outscore the opponent, it often obliterated the opponent. You can't score 100 points so consistantly at a tourney otherwise.

Here is the link. 8 rounds. He got 7 wins and only 1 loss. It was the Uprising Adelaine open, here is the link showing the final round. The commentors jumped all over the place. The possessed list got 2nd, losing to a chaos list that swept 8 wins out of 8.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnFshtNKnyI&ab_channel=ArtofWar40k

This is the game where Liam's list faced that Salamader's list. I think it was pretty much over by turn 3 or 4.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk7QyaCvSCQ&ab_channel=ArtofWar40k

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/02/18 11:48:26


 
   
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he took SL demons cause he can get SL possesed advance and charge that's the main point. Is really a good list, fast, hard hitting and with some nice tricks,

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/18 15:02:14


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Eldenfirefly wrote:
Well, warp time and cursed earth was very important to get off. So, that list took world bearers because they have a strat to gaurantee psychic goes off, and it can't be denied. Because otherwise, possessed are just T4, 2W with 5++. Oh, because he took slanaash daemons and CSM slanaash, so he can also cast delightful agonies twice. Its considered two different spells.

Actually, that list was great on scoring. It scored max points in 3 or 4 out of 7 games it won that tourney or something like that. And it flat out obliterated armies who weren't prepared.

Dunno if anyone is watching the Heavy Intercessors thread, but this is worth paying attention to.

Heavy Intercessors are troops, they cost 8 points more than an Intercessor. Better T, better save, and their standard gun is a Heavy Bolt Rifle - 36" range, Rapid Fire 1, S 5 AP -1 D 1. For 10 points, they can upgrade to an Executor Heavy Bolter which is Heavy 2, 42" range, S 5 AP -2 D3.

So they're a tougher version of HB Devs with Obsec who can be upgraded to kill Terminators with each wound from las cannon distance.

When Intercessors got upgraded in 8th edition, range became a major problem for me. Played a series of games where opponents just stepped back to 30" distance each turn, making it impossible to charge while they could still shoot. When the Heavy Intercessor models are released, the situation is going to get worse.

Think about how this stacks up against 10 Possessed with a 4+ Invul - arguably the best CSM melee option. Even advancing with Warptime, it would take 3 turns for them to cover 40". The Mathhammer suggests 5 HIs with EHBs standing still would average 5 wounding shots a turn, more if there's a Lieutenant nearby. Even with ignoring half those shots, that still means only a few Possessed get close enough for a charge.

The cost of 10 Possessed is slightly more than the cost of 5 HIs with EHBs. This math sucks for CSMs, costs scale linearly and there's no hard counters.

Intervening terrain, other buffs, who goes first, Loyalist chapter tactics, the secondaries you choose, etc could all affect outcomes, this isn't a silver bullet for Loyalists. But I don't see how Chaos stacks up against this, we don't have a troops option that's good at anything beyond mid-range. Loyalists now have line troops that can one-shot Chaos' best elite troops from across the table.

The 9th edition Chaos Codex will need to do a lot to compensate. Hope designers are paying attention to this dynamic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/20 12:09:08


   
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It's not as bad as all that. You can deep strike the possessed and then charge the intercessors. If you use Emperor's Children you can probably guarantee to get the charge off due to Honor the Prince.
   
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They're limited to one Heavy Bolter (or variant) per five.

They also have to take the same variant as their basic rifles. (Heavy 3 AP0 for Assault 3 AP0, standard Heavy Bolter AP-1 D2 for Rapid Fire 1 AP-1, and the D3 is only if they take the Stalker variant.)

Edit: They're still REALLY GOOD. But you've been misinformed as to how lethal they can be.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/20 16:37:30


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Eye of Terror

 JNAProductions wrote:
They're limited to one Heavy Bolter (or variant) per five.

They also have to take the same variant as their basic rifles. (Heavy 3 AP0 for Assault 3 AP0, standard Heavy Bolter AP-1 D2 for Rapid Fire 1 AP-1, and the D3 is only if they take the Stalker variant.)

Edit: They're still REALLY GOOD. But you've been misinformed as to how lethal they can be.


Yeah, I was off, but it's still very bad. From the datasheet in the Codex:

"If no model in this unit is equipped with a heavy bolter, you can take one of the following options: All of the models in the unit can have their heavy bolt rifles replaced with 1 hellstorm bolt rifle each, or all of the models in the unit can have their heavy bolt rifles replaced with 1 executor bolt rifle each."

Heavy Bolt Rifle: 36" Rapid Fire 1 S5 AP-1 D 1

Hellstorm: 30" Assault 3 S5 AP 0 D1

Executor: 42" Heavy 1 S5 AP-2 D2

There's a heavy variant for each, which can also be swapped.

"For every 5 models in this unit, 1 Heavy Intercessor's heavy bolt rifle can be replaced with 1 heavy bolter, 1 Heavy Intercessor's hellstorm bolt rifle can be replaced with 1 hellstorm heavy bolter, or 1 Heavy Intercessor's executor bolt rifle can be replaced with 1 executor heavy bolter."

Heavy Bolter: 36" Heavy 3 S5 AP-1 D2

Hellstorm Heavy Bolter: 30" Assault 3 S5 AP0 D1

Executor Heavy Bolter: 42" Heavy 2 S5 AP-2 D3

You pay +10 points for the heavy variants, nothing for the basic rifle upgrades.

So it's 140 points for 5 S4 T5 W3 troops with a 3+ save and 30" - 42" range, who have the option for an extra big gun for 10 points.

By comparison, they cost 2x the price of a CSM and only 8pts more than Possessed.

   
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 techsoldaten wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
Well, warp time and cursed earth was very important to get off. So, that list took world bearers because they have a strat to gaurantee psychic goes off, and it can't be denied. Because otherwise, possessed are just T4, 2W with 5++. Oh, because he took slanaash daemons and CSM slanaash, so he can also cast delightful agonies twice. Its considered two different spells.

Actually, that list was great on scoring. It scored max points in 3 or 4 out of 7 games it won that tourney or something like that. And it flat out obliterated armies who weren't prepared.

Dunno if anyone is watching the Heavy Intercessors thread, but this is worth paying attention to.

Heavy Intercessors are troops, they cost 8 points more than an Intercessor. Better T, better save, and their standard gun is a Heavy Bolt Rifle - 36" range, Rapid Fire 1, S 5 AP -1 D 1. For 10 points, they can upgrade to an Executor Heavy Bolter which is Heavy 2, 42" range, S 5 AP -2 D3.

So they're a tougher version of HB Devs with Obsec who can be upgraded to kill Terminators with each wound from las cannon distance.

When Intercessors got upgraded in 8th edition, range became a major problem for me. Played a series of games where opponents just stepped back to 30" distance each turn, making it impossible to charge while they could still shoot. When the Heavy Intercessor models are released, the situation is going to get worse.

Think about how this stacks up against 10 Possessed with a 4+ Invul - arguably the best CSM melee option. Even advancing with Warptime, it would take 3 turns for them to cover 40". The Mathhammer suggests 5 HIs with EHBs standing still would average 5 wounding shots a turn, more if there's a Lieutenant nearby. Even with ignoring half those shots, that still means only a few Possessed get close enough for a charge.

The cost of 10 Possessed is slightly more than the cost of 5 HIs with EHBs. This math sucks for CSMs, costs scale linearly and there's no hard counters.

Intervening terrain, other buffs, who goes first, Loyalist chapter tactics, the secondaries you choose, etc could all affect outcomes, this isn't a silver bullet for Loyalists. But I don't see how Chaos stacks up against this, we don't have a troops option that's good at anything beyond mid-range. Loyalists now have line troops that can one-shot Chaos' best elite troops from across the table.

The 9th edition Chaos Codex will need to do a lot to compensate. Hope designers are paying attention to this dynamic.


That was 8th edition. Nobody stands back at 36 or 42 inches to shoot these days especially if they are troops. Only the heavy support might stand so far back. Because the mid objectives are just too important. These are beefy troops choices which are obsec. I would want to deploy them nearer to the front. Deploying them 36 to 42 inches away means they will be too far away from the midboard objectives. There are no purely shooting armies in 9th ed. Because the midboard objectives are worth so much in primary VP. You need to have stuff go up to contest, take and hold the midboard.

In 9th edition, you can get tabled and still win the game from scoring VP. Its not about how much you kill, its about how many VP you score.

Sorry, I went to read more on that thread. It appears that this type of unit is more of a shooty threat. Its designed to ideally hold a backline objective. This is no different from having a tank paired up with a troop unit on a backline objective. You got shooting paired with obsec on that backline objective. In the end, the midboard objectives are more important. Unless you have an army that can sweep across the board, or you plant to deep strike into enemy deployment or use the strategic reserves rule to come in, otherwise, most players in 9th ed tend to worry more about the midboard than the backline objectives.

It reads like heavy intercessors are not ideal for moving up to contest the midboard objectives. In which case, I wouldn't worry that much about them. For pure shooty power from long range, there are far more dangerous stuff already available these days. Like I said, in 9th ed, more often than not, the game is won or lost on the midfield. Backline unit huggers do matter but they are not going to be game breaking.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/21 01:51:34


 
   
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Eldenfirefly wrote:
That was 8th edition. Nobody stands back at 36 or 42 inches to shoot these days especially if they are troops. Only the heavy support might stand so far back. Because the mid objectives are just too important. These are beefy troops choices which are obsec. I would want to deploy them nearer to the front. Deploying them 36 to 42 inches away means they will be too far away from the midboard objectives. There are no purely shooting armies in 9th ed. Because the midboard objectives are worth so much in primary VP. You need to have stuff go up to contest, take and hold the midboard.

In 9th edition, you can get tabled and still win the game from scoring VP. Its not about how much you kill, its about how many VP you score.

Sorry, I went to read more on that thread. It appears that this type of unit is more of a shooty threat. Its designed to ideally hold a backline objective. This is no different from having a tank paired up with a troop unit on a backline objective. You got shooting paired with obsec on that backline objective. In the end, the midboard objectives are more important. Unless you have an army that can sweep across the board, or you plant to deep strike into enemy deployment or use the strategic reserves rule to come in, otherwise, most players in 9th ed tend to worry more about the midboard than the backline objectives.

It reads like heavy intercessors are not ideal for moving up to contest the midboard objectives. In which case, I wouldn't worry that much about them. For pure shooty power from long range, there are far more dangerous stuff already available these days. Like I said, in 9th ed, more often than not, the game is won or lost on the midfield. Backline unit huggers do matter but they are not going to be game breaking.

Yeah, these guys break the mold.

They can camp an objective in the backfield while supporting skirmishers across the board. Plus they're almost as tough as Terminators.

As an opponent, there's going to be layers to NuMarine armies we haven't seen before. You're going to have to plan for taking out weaker infantry at mid-range and tougher shooty infantry at a distance. This isn't anything like Tacticals and Devastators, this is something new.




   
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Three questions. What is the optimal configuration for daemon princes, for chaos terminators, and what are a few good special characters? Thank you.
   
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BillyN831 wrote:
Three questions. What is the optimal configuration for daemon princes, for chaos terminators, and what are a few good special characters? Thank you.


It really depends on what Legion you are planning to run them as.
Daemon Princes are typically run as double talon for the +3 attacks.
Terminators look to be going the way of combibolter or combiplasma and single lightning claw.
As for special characters, it really depends on your Legion and army composition.
Melee heavy will benefit from an Exalted Champion.
Daemon-Engine heavy comps will benefit from a MoP or even a Warpsmith.
   
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As an opponent, there's going to be layers to NuMarine armies we haven't seen before. You're going to have to plan for taking out weaker infantry at mid-range and tougher shooty infantry at a distance. This isn't anything like Tacticals and Devastators, this is something new.

You need to get how 9th is... you CANT anymore plan to build army to shoot out of board your opponent, that dont work (of course as usual i consider your opponent is competent with a decent list), obscuring terrain, malus to hit and fact that now you score progressive, dont let gunlines win any single game anymore. You need to move and contest mid game, you need an army competent in melee.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/22 03:16:10


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 blackmage wrote:
As an opponent, there's going to be layers to NuMarine armies we haven't seen before. You're going to have to plan for taking out weaker infantry at mid-range and tougher shooty infantry at a distance. This isn't anything like Tacticals and Devastators, this is something new.

You need to get how 9th is... you CANT anymore plan to build army to shoot out of board your opponent, that dont work (of course as usual i consider your opponent is competent with a decent list), obscuring terrain, malus to hit and fact that now you score progressive, dont let gunlines win any single game anymore. You need to move and contest mid game, you need an army competent in melee.

Appreciate your comments about 9th edition. My point is a little different, not arguing Marines are going gunline.

Am saying Heavy Intercessors shooting range is from 30" to 42". They can support frontline troops from the rear with weapons similar to Heavy Bolters.

This will enable some tactics that I could see being very effective. Not sure Chaos has a good counter.



   
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So is CSM pretty much fethed until the codex when they get the 2 wounds and other upgrades? I'm sitting on some stuff I want to do as Iron Warriors (monofaction) but seems like there's no point until the update. God forbid GW just errata something as critical as an extra wound...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/11 13:44:56


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Does CSM have any solid anti armor ranged threats? I play Death guard but find my backfield armor pressure is week, and as I already am bringing a CSM sorceror to warptime morty, figured maybe there was a chance csm had some other support options I could throw in?

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 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Does CSM have any solid anti armor ranged threats? I play Death guard but find my backfield armor pressure is week, and as I already am bringing a CSM sorceror to warptime morty, figured maybe there was a chance csm had some other support options I could throw in?


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There is also Iron warriors Slanaash Obliterators. These are very points intensive though, and usually require additional support like a master of possession to get the best out of them. And they are only 24 inch range. However, on the turn they come down, one single unit of three can shoot twice for 36 shots in total. They have a high chance of doing a lot of damage. Pretty CP intensive though.
   
 
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